Jimmy Redman Posted October 23, 2014 Report Share Posted October 23, 2014 Pretty much that. I made almost the exact same, word-for-word point a few years ago when I was arguing how Kurt Angle popping up and kicking out of a bazillion finishers is completely different to John Cena Hulking Up and no-selling during a comeback. In pro wrestling logic there are times when you should sell, or not sell, or sell a certain way. Two athletic dudes deciding to pop up after taking moves that normally end people to show how many big moves they can take is a completely different thing than a larger than life superhero making a miraculous comeback from a beating and shrugging off offense. I'm not even saying the former is inherently bad, but they're two different tropes. The Superplex GIF and Lawler pulling the strap down are not the same thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WingedEagle Posted October 23, 2014 Report Share Posted October 23, 2014 Pretty much that. I made almost the exact same, word-for-word point a few years ago when I was arguing how Kurt Angle popping up and kicking out of a bazillion finishers is completely different to John Cena Hulking Up and no-selling during a comeback. In pro wrestling logic there are times when you should sell, or not sell, or sell a certain way. Two athletic dudes deciding to pop up after taking moves that normally end people to show how many big moves they can take is a completely different thing than a larger than life superhero making a miraculous comeback from a beating and shrugging off offense. I'm not even saying the former is inherently bad, but they're two different tropes. The Superplex GIF and Lawler pulling the strap down are not the same thing. They're not the same, but both can be done to death and rendered a complete joke, or effective if used sparingly. "No selling" is very important and pretty much necessary in many great matches because otherwise they'd all follow the same pattern and become pretty predictable if every finisher or big move was the end. As an example, Okada's Rainmaker has been built up for a couple years now as *the* finish. If he hits it, the match is over. We're getting to the point where you know it'll be teased and countered a few times and those spots are basically the equivalent of someone else's finisher being kicked out of b/c until it happens you know there's no risk of the match ending. But I imagine (hope) they'll eventually build to someone kicking out of it, which will add a whole other layer to his matches thereafter. I realize that's a bit of a tangent, but the point is that what works is to keep things diverse and the audience guessing -- if you go too far with no selling whereby nothing matters or eventually the other extreme where nothing but a finisher matters, you make it pretty hard to build heat for anything and it just becomes a waiting game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted October 23, 2014 Report Share Posted October 23, 2014 Kicking out of a move is not no selling it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Venegas Posted December 18, 2014 Report Share Posted December 18, 2014 In 2010-2011, I discovered/fell in love with independent wrestling. ROH was all the rage in the circles I frequented on the Internet. The guy who I heard the most about, was Davey Richards. Everyone loved this guy. Some even thought he was the best in the world. I remember 14 year old me watching some matches and really liking him as well. In fact, the first live ROH iPPV I watched was Best In The World 2011, when he won the title. He was my favorite wrestler for a while afterwards. Now, more than three years later, a lot of my views on wrestling have done a complete 180. Honestly, I haven't even bothered to go back and watch Davey Richards in a long time. Here's one I actually haven't seen before: Davey Richards -vs- Chris Hero; ROH Only The Strong Survive. Charolette, NC. Okay, first things first, let's establish some context here. Davey suffered a concussion in his last match vs Roderick Strong. It was pretty crazy because people were legit worried if it was a work or a shoot. So, who does he face in his first match back? The most lethal striker in the company, of course. They start off with some sweeeet mat work. Real neat stuff. Davey probably falls into the Kurt Angle category as someone who does too much running around when they could be a freakin' awesome modern Volk Han on the mat if they watched a few RINGS tapes. Hero kills Davey with strikes and kicks in this. I'm talking elbows, kicks to the back of the head, jumping spinning kicks, anything. Davey did a reaaaaaaally good job at selling the concussion. Real cringeworthy stuff that at times made you feel like you wanted the match to end for the sake of his health. A lot of Davey's criticism comes from the fact that he may kick out of/do too many moves, but I didn't see it here. There were times where I about to throw the overkill flag but Davey would redeem it buy immediately shaking the cobwebs and selling his loopyness. He would always go back to selling his concussion after doing a big move or coming down from an adrenaline rush. The concussion was pretty much the basis of the match. Late into the match, Davey attacks the arm that his drilling his brain in with some nasty armbar variations, and kimuras. Hero busted out everything, in a good way. In a "I'm gonna have to unload shit I usually save for when need be" way. Springboard moonsaults, piledrivers, all sorts of shit. Davey wins with a shooting star press, a spot he only busts out in big matches. Excellent match. Loved it. I can't speak for Davey's other matches, but this right here was a gem. Hero was great here as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Schneider Posted December 18, 2014 Report Share Posted December 18, 2014 Man we reviewed a 2014 Davey match for Segunda Caida's IWA-MS top 18 countdown http://segundacaida.blogspot.com/2014/12/iwa-mid-south-top-18-matches-16-john.html Man it was jarring to see how awful he is, he might be the worst in ring actor I have ever seen, his selling and emoting is like a home for mentally challenged teens put on Streetcar Named Desire Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Venegas Posted December 18, 2014 Report Share Posted December 18, 2014 Here's a link to Hero/Davey: http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x2bbnev_herovsrichards2_sport I really suggest going into this with an open mind. I enjoyed it a lot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benbeeach Posted December 20, 2014 Report Share Posted December 20, 2014 lol nah. He's someone I really wanted to like in early PWG as Super Dragons young lion. He looked the part. Had nice offense. But then he went to ROH, and I started to see him in longish matches where didn't always have a Dragon, or Styles or even Aries to reign him in and yeah, na, sorry. Some of my personal criticisms of him probably aren't even fair but idc, he's really not for me, and I really thought he would be 6,7-8 years ago, but he just isn't. He doesn't do the Go 2 Sleep, he does the "alarm clock." They aren't the British Bulldogs, they are the "American Wolves." Just some real groan worthy stuff. Something about diminutive wrestlers with short stumpy legs doing kick based offense . . .He probably IS the most unfairly criticized wrestler of our modern generation, but I mean whatever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricR Posted December 22, 2014 Report Share Posted December 22, 2014 I see that he gets a lot of criticism, but I don't think I've ever seen any criticism of him that seemed unfair. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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