WingedEagle Posted June 20, 2015 Report Share Posted June 20, 2015 I've only been back following ROH seriously for a few months now, but am trying to understand Lethal taking the title. Do we think he's a short term transitional champ? His character and style don't seem to fit the profile of what they usually book on top. Maybe I'm in the minority but everything I've seen from him is more along the lines of King Barrett than Wade Barrett, lead Nexus heel, if you know what I mean. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Dog Posted June 20, 2015 Report Share Posted June 20, 2015 They haven't really done many short term transitional champions. Elgin's reign was only short because he fucked up. I think Lethal will have the belt at least until Final Battle. They've kind of been breaking from the norm the last year or so. Lethal isn't like what they usually book on top but they've been willing to try some new things. I think Lethal makes a lot of sense for them right now. He's more of a known name that might snag them some new fans on Destination America. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stomperspc Posted June 20, 2015 Report Share Posted June 20, 2015 Of the four PPV's ROH ran since last June, I thought this was one of the weakest or the weakest (I don't really remember last year's BITW very well). Nothing stood out to me on the undercard although nothing was out right bad. The 3-way was a bit messy as expected and Elgin was Elgin. Loved Moose's dive. Going the predictable route isn't always wrong, but Cedric's heel turn played out in almost the exact same manner that several recent heels turns in ROH have played out. Tag title match was fine as a generic hardcore/No DQ match but that style is played out for me. The Bullet Club trios was just as expected. It seems like Styles enjoys working with the Bucks. Hard to put my finger on it but he seems to have an extra spring in his step when he teams with them. They had a lot of good ideas with the main event. The stalling and slow build (by current ROH standards) definitely made the match feel bigger time than a normal ROH main event. I am not a fan at all of how so many ROH matches head out of the ring early on for some meaningless brawling. I really wish they would have cut that part out or found a more natural/intense way to get there. The body of the match was fine but nothing special. I understand why they went near 30-minutes but if they were going to go that long more stalling/feeling out stuff at the beginning instead of the lengthy middle section of the match might have been a better way to get there. The match was never boring but it did feel like they were killing time in the middle. I didn't have an issue with the finish mainly because they got me to buy into the idea that this was a huge, important match in the promotion's history in addition to being a personal issue. So trading finishers and kicking out didn't bother me in the context and felt appropriate. They went less far to that end than Cena/Owens and in context, this was a much bigger match. Good match with a lot of good ideas, but not great. I'll probably go to the iPPV in July in Baltimore so I was hoping for Strong/Briscoe instead of Strong/Lethal. Hopefully Lethal will be on his A-game. Lethal is almost definitely champion for the long haul (at least Final Battle). Strong isn't under contract so I doubt they would put the title on him. Moose and Adam Cole are probably challengers at some point. I think Moose should win it in his first shot (ROH so rarely does that) but he's still got a little ways to go before they get put the title on him. Cole's been beaten a lot since returning. Its hard to tell exactly where they are going with him although a face turn seems like it could be in the cards based on the post-match reaction to his loss by his teammates. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Dog Posted June 20, 2015 Report Share Posted June 20, 2015 They could also run Lethal/ACH as a B level feud for TV and the house show circuit but not use that as a PPV main event. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Dog Posted June 20, 2015 Report Share Posted June 20, 2015 And I doubt Moose wins it on his first try. RoH usually jobs a guy a few times too many in title matches before giving them the big win. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Migs Posted June 20, 2015 Report Share Posted June 20, 2015 A few live comments: - Terminal 5 might be one of the worst wrestling venues I've ever been to. Terrible sight lines. It's my least favorite concert venue in NYC and now my least favorite wrestling venue. - The NYC crowd really was into Dalton. My group spent a lot of time attempting to find a Dalton Castle shirt online. - Holy lord is the Bullet Club over. By far the most popular shirt in the building too. - Felt like a split crowd on Lethal and Briscoe, which made for a fun environment. - The "You Deserve This" chant that Lethal got may be even worse than "This is Awesome." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KrisZ Posted June 20, 2015 Report Share Posted June 20, 2015 Since I wasn't on the Reaction show last night due to having to be at work this morning...... Briscoe vs. Dijak = good enough opener with the right guy winning which also telegraphed the main event finish in a way. Page/Whitmer vs. ACH/Sydal = decent match with some good spots from ACH....glad to see Page get a meaningful win and man was the Whitmer hate hilarious. Castle vs. Silas = Dalton Castle and his Boys are a fantastic act and this was a pretty good match mostly thanks to Castle. War Machine vs. C&C Wrestle Factory = This was all angle and was a waste of time....should've been on a TV show not PPV. WWE would've been killed if they did this. Roddy vs. Moose vs. Elgin = I had no problem with Roddy winning because of how awesome he has been this year but no way in hell should Moose have jobbed. Elgin sadly wasn't going to job though because of the politics with him being in the G1 but he was a total shitshow in this match. Moose getting laid out afterwards was something else too and he has jobbed now twice since re-upping with ROH. Roddy was so damn good here working a frantic pace. Bucks/Styles vs. Kingdom = This was a polarizing match and a complete spotfest if there ever was one but it was an insane spectacle that I totally loved. I know a lot of people hated the Maria spot and it was what it was but what are you going to do. This was the main event to the crowd no doubt and these guys delivered. Watch out for Adam Cole now....his career path is going to be interesting. Addiction vs. ReDragon = This had no real chance to follow up the last match and Addiction looking like a neo-Nazi tribute act now is something else. These teams tried hard and ReDragon is great but this had no real spark and Addiction are a much better act as faces. Lethal vs. Briscoe = They have been building Lethal up for well over a year and this was the payoff as well as being the right finish If you aren't going to have Moose be #1 contender then Briscoe should've dropped the strap to Lethal. The match itself had some really strong moments and some not so strong as well as Lethal has been as a character he still has his shortcomings in the ring. The post match stuff was well done as well with Lethal's parents crying. Overall I give the show a slight thumbs up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SomethingSavage Posted June 20, 2015 Report Share Posted June 20, 2015 I still don't see Moose at that level. Maybe by Final Battle, but even then it might feel like it's too soon. Of course I could be in the minority by a wide margin in thinking that. It is what it is though. Either way, I do agree that Moose should be protected moving forward. I *get* the political positioning of Elgin & all that at the moment, but yeah. If at all possible, I'd have Moose murder-death-kill him after the G1 is all said & done. Like, repeatedly mow him down & maul him in a few matches. Put Moose over in clean almost over-the-top fashion. I like Lethal with the right opponent, but I'm on the fence about having him as their World Champ for any long duration. Briscoe, to me, just makes for better matches with a much wider range of opponents until they're ready to really pull the trigger on their next actual guy - likely Moose, by all accounts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KrisZ Posted June 20, 2015 Report Share Posted June 20, 2015 Strong is another guy who has some political implications going on so I wouldn't be shocked to see them hot shot the title to him to get him to commit long term Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bradhindsight Posted June 22, 2015 Report Share Posted June 22, 2015 My thoughts: I was surprised Dijak jobbed clean as a sheet in the open, just with how he's been positioned as the Top Prospect winner. I could have seen a miscommunication spot or something that maybe led to a fuzzy pin but this was really Mark overcoming that crazy bump and just flat going over. Mark also got the pinfall in that big 10-man at Global Wars. FWIW, I thought Dijak wrestled well and looked crisp. I kind of like that they've slow-played the ACH-Page rematch, going with this tag to advance the story further - inserting Colby into it now as well. Whitmer *is* in a groove with this gimmick and when he gets his comeuppance it should be good. Castle/Silas exceeded my expectations. Good match. C&C/War Machine - I had no issue with this being strictly angle advancement since it was the last match added. Cedric not punking out Caprice was confusing until what happens later. Roddy/Moose/Elgin - so, once they announced the winner here was going to get their shot at the next iPPV, it kind of cancelled out any thinking (for me) that Moose would win. I think he and Lethal will do good business...eventually, but that's something for December. Elgin being protected is the worst. I do want to watch this again because man it seemed like Moose was wrestling like a guy Roddy's size vs. being MOOSE. Hey, selling is great, but this guy is a monster. He should be wrecking guys. Sometimes given his size his bumps look weak but all-in-all pretty good last year since his debut. After watching this and the Cedric match on TV, I don't think he's ready either. Roddy is interesting, had a good TV match with Lethal in Feb, and I do think there are legs to his Mr. ROH story. I don't know how that works with him so engaged elsewhere though. Bucks/Kingdom - current PPV feed stalls at 1:57ish, missed the second half so far. Tag titles - haven't watched but the NO DQ stip was warranted after the initial KRD sneak attack and Kyle 2:1 last week. Main event - Letha/Briscoe was a GREAT piece of business - the O'Reilly/Lethal match being some of the best stuff ROH has done all year. Im not convinced I like Lethal in big-time feel matches at all but thought Briscoe was great. I was surprised at the result - and with no shenanigans (after Lethal pretty much as relied on them all year). Don't know what Jay does from here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WingedEagle Posted June 22, 2015 Report Share Posted June 22, 2015 Looking for some help from people that have been ROH regulars for the last couple years. Did Lethal's push over that time and culminating in the build to this show effectively portray him the man to dethrone Briscoe? Curious because one thing that's stood out to me since jumping back into the weekly TV this year is how strongly they've pushed Briscoe as undefeated in singles action for a couple of years. Let me know if I'm reading more into it but it sure seemed like they were building that up for something more climactic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bradhindsight Posted June 22, 2015 Report Share Posted June 22, 2015 I think Lethal's character work and push put him on the same level as Briscoe, but this title vs. title didn't have an arc where Briscoe was passing the torch, or that it was a given conclusion Lethal would win. I was in the camp where Moose supplanting Briscoe (eventually) was the better story. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shoe Posted June 30, 2015 Report Share Posted June 30, 2015 I finally got around to watching the show. I'd give it a thumbs in the middle. I didn't have any matches at 4* or higher. ROH really needs to do kick ass shows on these main ppvs. Most of their VOD have been better than this show. My favorite match was The Kingdom vs Styles/Bucks at 3 3/4*. Lethal vs Briscoe was good, but just had too many flaws. I actually enjoyed the start with the feeling out, but on the other hand I felt this feud was pretty personal and thought they should have brought the hate. The way it was booked with Lethal's support system getting stripped away , and still showing the guts to win the title in front of his parents really seem to be planting a baby face run. We'll see though. On paper a lot of the ideas sounded great, but the execution or presentation of the ideas lacked. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WingedEagle Posted July 1, 2015 Report Share Posted July 1, 2015 Shoe, you get a chance to check out last week's TV yet? Probably the best hour of TV this year and in a long time. Nak/Strong was terrific and the 6-man was a MOTYC. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shoe Posted July 1, 2015 Report Share Posted July 1, 2015 I loved it. The 6 man on tv was better than the 6 man on ppv. I liked Strong/Nak better than Lethal/Briscoe too, even though Briscoe/Lethal was promoted much better. This is an example of ROH not protecting their ppv model. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WingedEagle Posted July 1, 2015 Report Share Posted July 1, 2015 Totally agree, both TV matches were better than the ones you cited from the PPV. Definitely a solid show, but odd when the TV blows it out of the water. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shoe Posted July 1, 2015 Report Share Posted July 1, 2015 I'm all for them having great matches on their tv and VOD. When you have people who work hard that can happen. ROH needs to make their ppv's more special. How I'm not sure. One would be not to put 2 killer matches on the same tv. Maybe spend a little more time on interviews or angles to build the ppvs, and maximize payoffs on the ppvs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bradhindsight Posted July 1, 2015 Report Share Posted July 1, 2015 It's tough when they're televising the NJPW exhibition (essentially) matches, which are complete one-offs to their normal TV and are essentially in a vacuum of "really good wrestling". I felt like they built to the tag titles and the main event fine in their TV on the lead up to Best in the World. They even did a contract signing segment. Even ACH/Page had build with backstage segments. Then on the flipside there are matches just thrown together (like the #1 contender's match), but I somewhat get that given the lack of TV time. It's an interesting discussion - does their model change with a return to iPPV? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parties Posted July 2, 2015 Author Report Share Posted July 2, 2015 - Terminal 5 might be one of the worst wrestling venues I've ever been to. Terrible sight lines. It's my least favorite concert venue in NYC and now my least favorite wrestling venue. Definitely agree: this place is the anti-coliseum. I was in the balcony, but it looked like the people who paid for floor seats got hosed. There are outdoor junior high basketball courts in NYC more fit to house wrestling than this. And those courts serve better drinks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Migs Posted July 3, 2015 Report Share Posted July 3, 2015 - Terminal 5 might be one of the worst wrestling venues I've ever been to. Terrible sight lines. It's my least favorite concert venue in NYC and now my least favorite wrestling venue. Definitely agree: this place is the anti-coliseum. I was in the balcony, but it looked like the people who paid for floor seats got hosed. There are outdoor junior high basketball courts in NYC more fit to house wrestling than this. And those courts serve better drinks. I actually once saw a wrestling show at a junior high basketball court in Philly. It involved the Rockin Rebel. And yes, I had a much better view of the action than at Terminal 5. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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