Best Babyface Ever?

[Matt D]

I just saw the vulnerable Hansen vs Taue match from the 94 Carnival and I was amazed by the fact that Hansen, through his selling and desire to fight on was getting a chant mid-match.

[ohtani's jacket]

 

Well, Atlantis was a masked luchador and idol to the kids. I think you have to compare him with other masked stars.

You're going to have to do some apples-to-oranges comparisons when determining the best babyface ever. Even then, I think Dandy stands out from maskless tecnicos more than Atlantis does from masked tecnicos. Hijo del Santo and Lizmark could conceivably rate above Atlantis. Solar and Villano III probably have backers. Dandy's competition is... tecnico Casas? Other than him, the maskless tecnicos who are as good as Dandy at the babyface aspects of being a tecnico are guys like Brazo de Plata.

 

I think this is a difficult argument to have because if you compare Atlantis to Santo, Lizmark, Solar or Villano what are you basing the comparison on? I think most people base it instinctively on who they like as a worker not how well they work as a babyface. What are you thinking about specifically? Selling? Appealing to the crowd? Match structure? Who has the best look? Who drew the biggest reactions? Or are you thinking more about the tecnico role in trios matches and what not? Or the tecnico side of an apuestas bout? For me, without speaking Spanish and not being part of the lucha culture proper (magazines, attending shows, talking to fans, etc.), it's hard to know who was really the best of the workers above, though I suspect Santo has more of an argument and Solar less of one.

 

As for Dandy's competition, maybe a rudo Sangre Chicana eliciting sympathy? I guess that doesn't really count. Perro working tecnico? Something about Dandy being the best pure tecnico doesn't really sit right with me. It's not that he was a natural rudo. I think he as a great tecnico, but like Frankensteiner it's hard to think of him as a pure tecnico.

[Gregor]

I think this is a difficult argument to have because if you compare Atlantis to Santo, Lizmark, Solar or Villano what are you basing the comparison on? I think most people base it instinctively on who they like as a worker not how well they work as a babyface. What are you thinking about specifically? Selling? Appealing to the crowd? Match structure? Who has the best look? Who drew the biggest reactions? Or are you thinking more about the tecnico role in trios matches and what not? Or the tecnico side of an apuestas bout? For me, without speaking Spanish and not being part of the lucha culture proper (magazines, attending shows, talking to fans, etc.), it's hard to know who was really the best of the workers above, though I suspect Santo has more of an argument and Solar less of one.

 

As for Dandy's competition, maybe a rudo Sangre Chicana eliciting sympathy? I guess that doesn't really count. Perro working tecnico? Something about Dandy being the best pure tecnico doesn't really sit right with me. It's not that he was a natural rudo. I think he as a great tecnico, but like Frankensteiner it's hard to think of him as a pure tecnico.

I'm honestly not sure what the standards are in this thread. Given that no one is listing Hogan, Dusty, Rock, and guys like that, it seems like it isn't about look or reaction and is based on in-ring actions. "Great matches" has been listed as a criterion, but even though people are primarily listing highly regarded workers I don't think it's simply "who was the best worker of all the people who were faces?" In any case, I'm not sure it matters all that much for Atlantis. Would you really bat an eyelid if someone called him a better worker than Lizmark but a worse tecnico, or if they called him a worse worker but a better tecnico? Atlantis seems fairly close to all four of those guys both as a worker and as a tecnico (although I know you found Rambo more likeable than Villano III). It's probably easier to judge Solar and Villano as tecnicos than as workers, though, just because of footage limitations.

 

As I said earlier, I can see the argument that Dandy's not a pure tecnico, but who was? Atlantis, Lizmark, and El Hijo del Santo, obviously. I assume Villano III and Angel Azteca continued to be pure tecnicos after they unmasked (when they were tecnicos - I don't know if they ever had any runs as rudos). What about Javier Cruz, Americo Rocca, and Ringo Mendoza? Dandy didn't seem to be presented all that differently from them. I'm limited by my lousy Spanish, but, even though Dandy's rudo past did seem to get mentioned and pop up in his character (the feud with Azteca, cheating to beat Satanico and Fiera, and I'm not sure but I think after that time he hanged Fiera he got asked in a post-match interview if he was still a tecnico), he still seemed a lot closer to Atlantis than to tecnico Perro. Regardless of whether he's a pure tecnico, I brought him up mostly because I think that he's a better babyface than Atlantis - better seller, better at getting fired up, better wrestler, and his character just came across as sharper than Atlantis'.

[DR Ackermann]

I wouldn't call him the absolute best, but I think Windham is one of the very best. He was really great working from underneath and building sympathy especially when you consider how much larger he was than most of his opponents. Dustin Rhodes should be in the conversation for the same reasons.

[Frankensteiner]

We'll just agree to disagree. I don't think selling played any particular role in him getting over. To me Bret Hart is a natural heel and played a great one even when he was supposed to be giving face promos.

 

Since we had a debate here on the importance of selling (or lack there of), and since you think Bret was an awful babyface, I'm curious what you think got Bret over so much with the WWF crowds where he was arguably the most popular face in the company for some 3+ years? All throughout a period of time when there were clearly other wrestlers (Hogan, Luger, Diesel) getting pushed harder by the company as the #1 face.

[DR Ackermann]

I never said he was an awful babyface, I said he was an awful choice for best babyface of all time. I think he was over because of consistency. He was portrayed as a great wrestler who always worked his hardest. People saw his whole career play out in the WWF, and then when he got pushed to the top he was a fresh face in that role who people saw as deserving. They grew up with him. Not only that, but he was seen as a legitimate wrestler in an increasingly cartoon world. He stood out for being a normal wrestler. I'm not saying he was bad at selling, I just don't think it was something that stood out compared to his other abilities. Even when other people were pushed harder by the booking, he was probably portrayed better and more consistently than most and was given more opportunities to have great matches.

[ohtani's jacket]

 

I think this is a difficult argument to have because if you compare Atlantis to Santo, Lizmark, Solar or Villano what are you basing the comparison on? I think most people base it instinctively on who they like as a worker not how well they work as a babyface. What are you thinking about specifically? Selling? Appealing to the crowd? Match structure? Who has the best look? Who drew the biggest reactions? Or are you thinking more about the tecnico role in trios matches and what not? Or the tecnico side of an apuestas bout? For me, without speaking Spanish and not being part of the lucha culture proper (magazines, attending shows, talking to fans, etc.), it's hard to know who was really the best of the workers above, though I suspect Santo has more of an argument and Solar less of one.

 

As for Dandy's competition, maybe a rudo Sangre Chicana eliciting sympathy? I guess that doesn't really count. Perro working tecnico? Something about Dandy being the best pure tecnico doesn't really sit right with me. It's not that he was a natural rudo. I think he as a great tecnico, but like Frankensteiner it's hard to think of him as a pure tecnico.

I'm honestly not sure what the standards are in this thread. Given that no one is listing Hogan, Dusty, Rock, and guys like that, it seems like it isn't about look or reaction and is based on in-ring actions. "Great matches" has been listed as a criterion, but even though people are primarily listing highly regarded workers I don't think it's simply "who was the best worker of all the people who were faces?" In any case, I'm not sure it matters all that much for Atlantis. Would you really bat an eyelid if someone called him a better worker than Lizmark but a worse tecnico, or if they called him a worse worker but a better tecnico? Atlantis seems fairly close to all four of those guys both as a worker and as a tecnico (although I know you found Rambo more likeable than Villano III). It's probably easier to judge Solar and Villano as tecnicos than as workers, though, just because of footage limitations.

 

As I said earlier, I can see the argument that Dandy's not a pure tecnico, but who was? Atlantis, Lizmark, and El Hijo del Santo, obviously. I assume Villano III and Angel Azteca continued to be pure tecnicos after they unmasked (when they were tecnicos - I don't know if they ever had any runs as rudos). What about Javier Cruz, Americo Rocca, and Ringo Mendoza? Dandy didn't seem to be presented all that differently from them. I'm limited by my lousy Spanish, but, even though Dandy's rudo past did seem to get mentioned and pop up in his character (the feud with Azteca, cheating to beat Satanico and Fiera, and I'm not sure but I think after that time he hanged Fiera he got asked in a post-match interview if he was still a tecnico), he still seemed a lot closer to Atlantis than to tecnico Perro. Regardless of whether he's a pure tecnico, I brought him up mostly because I think that he's a better babyface than Atlantis - better seller, better at getting fired up, better wrestler, and his character just came across as sharper than Atlantis'.

 

 

A lot of food for thought here.

 

I've always bunched Atlantis together with Lizmark, Solar, and at times Santo in terms of classical masked luchadores in the modern era. Azteca I think was the heir apparent as you know. All of them came after the glory days of the lucha mags. Atlantis got a strong push on debut and then settled into a sort of consistent presence, but as a hardcore fan watching what limited footage we have, I think he held up the tecnico end of a lot of matches w/out being the focal guy that Dandy was in his various feuds. To me that's a different strength or skill than Dandy presented. I know I said it before, but they're different types of babyfaces. Dandy had a run where he was the man. I don't think Atlantis had the charisma to reach that level. He had a different sort of appeal. To that extent, Dandy was better, but I think he faded fairly quickly. If we're being honest, is he as relevant after 1990 as he was during that run? CMLL chose not to push him as strongly, but he also gained weight and what not. Atlantis has a lot of horrible stuff admittedly. A lot of his apuesta feuds in the early 90s suck and he disappears off the radar a lot during the lost years of '93-95, but how do we factor in his longevity and his later apuesta matches against Villano and Ultimo Guerrero? I sometimes think if he hit the maestro circuit more people wouldn't doubt him as much as a worker.