Sting v Luger - So few matches?

[goc]

I remember it as seeming like Sting wrestling like someone who would rather be somewhere else, but I guess I blame that on him realizing Hogan had destroyed his big chance for good at Starrcade. Maybe I'm being unfair.

I would say that you are being unfair. The whole reason they switched up the finish at Starrcade 97 is because Bischoff and Hogan both thought "man this guy just doesn't care anymore" and so they didn't want to go all in on making him look like THE MAN~! when he had pretty much checked out.

[thebrainfollower]

Sorry goc but I don't buy that. Hogan didn't put Sting over because Hogan is a mark who hates doing a job and didn't want to. How do you know how Sting is gonna work BEFORE the match when Sting had not wrestled in over a year? Because his physique and tan weren't as great.

 

BS. Hogan didn't job because Hogan cares only about Hogan.

[JerryvonKramer]

Fan wise, it is hard to want to change the 89 we got with Flair vs Steamer and Flair vs Funk. Plus, of course, Luger's career best year as US Champ.

 

But business-wise, I don't think Flair should have been a heel in 89. Fans wanted to cheer him, and they did. I think fantasy running the first thing I do is ... Don't hire George Scott. I don't know after that. Ban bonnie from ringside. Let the girls scream for Ricky. Don't have him bringing his kid out. And ... How about running Flair vs. Steamboat face vs. face?

[goc]

Sorry goc but I don't buy that. Hogan didn't put Sting over because Hogan is a mark who hates doing a job and didn't want to. How do you know how Sting is gonna work BEFORE the match when Sting had not wrestled in over a year? Because his physique and tan weren't as great.

 

BS. Hogan didn't job because Hogan cares only about Hogan.

He was still backstage at the arenas all the time even if he wasn't wrestling. And yes his physique falling off is a clear indicator that he stopped caring.

[goc]

Bischoff said all that himself on Flair's podcast and I guess you can say he's lying or just trying to cover for Hogan if you want but there's no way they set up the match for that long, almost a year and a half of build up just to run that shitty finish.

 

 

During an appearance on Ric Flair’s WOOOOOO! Nation podcast, Eric Bischoff talked about the long build for Sting vs. Hulk Hogan at Starrcade 1997, and explained the reason why he had to change the planned finish of the match.

“What had happened over the course of a year is he hadn’t been working out. He wasn’t engaged. He’d show up, he’d do his thing, he would do it very well, it was great, he’d get on a plane the next morning, he’d disappear, and we wouldn’t see him for a week.” Bischoff continued, “but at the end of our first meeting talking about where things were going, when it was over, Hulk and I both looked at each other and go, ‘man, we can’t go there. He didn’t get ready for this.’ It didn’t feel to us that this was a priority.”

The original plan was for Sting to go over Hogan clean, but Bischoff made the decision to change course.

“Hulk Hogan takes the heat for this, ‘you changed the finish – you didn’t want to do it’, B.S. That was my call. Right or wrong, it was my call.”

[thebrainfollower]

I guess but I think playing a Crow like character with a deep tan and roided up muscles make ZERO sense. I am not sure what was going on in Sting's head at the time so maybe you're right.

 

Or maybe Sting could see what Hogan was going to do to him and was depressed it was happening AGAIN. I don't know, neither do you only Sting does. But anyone trusting HULK FREAKING HOGAN about why he changed his mind and got out of a job, I want THAT person on my jury if I ever go up up murder charges.

[thebrainfollower]

Gotcha.

 

I don't trust Bischoff about anything where Hogan is involved. If they had known this for a YEAR they could have gone in another direction long before Starrcade. They did not. That proves to me their story is made up nonsense, created to make Hogan, who is well known as Bischoff's meal ticket, NOT look like the politician he was.

[JerryvonKramer]

My impression of that deal in 97 is that ... Well let's just say it doesn't take much for Hogan to get cold feet about doing a job. The story Eric told is the story that Hulk told himself. His own BS justification to himself. This is human nature to a degree, but one senses that Hulk probably does that more than anyone. It's on Bischoff not Hogan though. Just as 88 is on JCP and not Flair. You mostly have to assume workers will be self-centred. We know in a similar situation in 1997, Vince literally walked to ringside to ensure the belt ended up where he wanted it to. Even if Vince was "wrong", he still wasn't letting a worker dictate where his belt was.

[goc]

Well we'll just have to agree to disagree then because I don't think Sting suddenly taking a HUGE nose dive in the quality of his matches is because his feelings were hurt over not winning the title clean at Starrcade. Dude mentally checked out during his time off and didn't ever really turn it back on in WCW.

[thebrainfollower]

Again in order to believe Bischoff you have to believe that A) they knew for the course of a year there was a problem and Sting would not work out as champion and they kept the match on the books for that whole year despite Luger being RED HOT and never bothered to change the match and C) they then on or near that day, came up with a finish so bad it did more to bring back the WWF than anything I can think of outside Austin and Tyson and a finish that benefited NO other babyface because they undercut Bret at that moment as well.

 

BS. I don't believe it. It's always the same stuff with Hogan and his cronies. They do everything they can to justify their view which is that Hulk Hogan never will and never should job and should ALWAYS be the top guy. They did the same stuff in TNA more than 10 years later and Hogan wasn't even a wrestler then.

[thebrainfollower]

I agree with most of this Jerry but here is the difference. In 1988 if Crockett had ordered Flair to job he would have had to do so or be fired. In 1997 Hogan could have laughed in Bischoff's face and nothing could have been done (That too is Bischoff's fault though). Sorry I still believe Bischoff was NOT in on the "fast" count and justified all this to make himself NOT look like a moral coward, a mark and a tool of Hogan and then Nash.

[goc]

I don't really know where you are getting point A) from though. You really think that Hogan/Bischoff/Sting sat down in September of 96 and started talking about what they were going to do with Sting after he won the title? No, that supposed meeting he mentions probably happened a few weeks to a month before Starrcade once things were already totally set in motion.

[JerryvonKramer]

The real guy who got screwed in 97 was Luger anyway. He was so over. He got five days with the title.

 

They might have transitioned to something mega over. Imagine Luger vs. Crow Sting. Imagine Luger defending against NWO members for a few months.

 

I really think that was another time they dropped the ball with Luger. So often in his career.

[thebrainfollower]

No i don't think that goc. I don't think Hogan and Bischoff EVER had that meeting at all. But here is what they claim

 

over the course of a year is he hadn’t been working out.

 

 

 

Okay but during this "year" that things had not been working out they NEVER changed their plans. They continued to book towards a guy they knew would NOT work out. BS.

[goc]

Ok well the last thing I'll say about is just that I buy the story that they could see that Sting wasn't really that invested in being THE MAN in talking to him as thing got close to Starrcade. I think his totally listless performances in 98 bear out that line of thinking. I don't see how him going over clean at Starrcade really would have made him be so much more motivated when he was making the same amount of money anyway due to the way WCW contracts were set up.

 

For whatever you want to say about Hogan he was definitely not dogging it and was putting way more effort into things during that same time frame. Sting looked like a guy who was going through the motions.

[thebrainfollower]

What Hogan did to Bill Goldberg's title run as well is what cements this for me. It's Hogan being Hogan. having said that yes Sting hurt himself, he COULD have gone out there and given so much that a darn riot would have broken out over that finish. And FORCED Hogan to do a job for fear of his life.

[goc]

But Hogan also put Goldberg over clean as a whistle AND on free TV where even more people would see it than were watching Starrcade 97. Goldberg having a shitty title reign and eventually losing his streak to Kevin Nash was way more about WCW's overall dysfunction than anything that can be laid at Hogan's feet.

 

And Goldberg also looked like he really fucking wanted it and wasn't just out there going through the motions because he was getting paid millions of dollars and didn't feel like getting a new job despite him no longer really being passionate about wrestling.

[thebrainfollower]

Hogan did NOT put Goldberg over clean. Hogan was distracted by Page and Malone and had his back turned until right before the spear. it's closer but it's not clean.

 

Nash has made a VERY good case that beating Goldberg did NOTHING for him and was a way to get the title back to Hogan which is indeed what happened.

 

I can understand the newfound love the internet has for Hollywood Hogan. But anyone who doesn't see the damage the guy was doing to WCW by the end of 97 through his departure, I am sorry. I was a fan at the time and when Bret jumped I seriously thought about never watching WWF again then saw Starrcade and thought "you know what at least in WWF the face goes over at Mania' (well until HHH ruined that). Hogan did a ton of damage.

 

And Goldberg stopped caring in 98? Well maybe fighting AL GREENE on Nitro and having no stories helped. Hogan undercut these guys on purpose again and again and again to keep himself on top. He made a career out of it, much more so without Vince to keep him in check. His politics in 98 and 99 was as bad as HHH's in 2002-2004. One turned me off WCW, the other turned me off modern wrestling.

[goc]

I didn't say Goldberg stopped caring, I said Goldberg's intense performances were a direct contrast to Sting's totally listless ones. Even Goldberg's short run as a heel which he stated he really didn't want to do showed him putting on good performances. The Duggan match is a great heel performance from a guy who apparently was very unhappy at the time.

[thebrainfollower]

I am legit sorry I thought you posted "didn't" before that. Which is my fault totally and says something.

 

But Hogan still undercut Goldberg as soon as he won the title off him until getting it back with the Fingerpoke.

[fxnj]

No i don't think that goc. I don't think Hogan and Bischoff EVER had that meeting at all. But here is what they claim

 

over the course of a year is he hadnt been working out.

 

 

 

Okay but during this "year" that things had not been working out they NEVER changed their plans. They continued to book towards a guy they knew would NOT work out. BS.

Pretty sure by "working out" Bischoff meant going into a gym and training. You're right that the gimmick didn't call for a bulky roid physique, but there's still a fine line between that and being flabby. Besides, he had plenty of free time with him not having to work matches, so him not caring enough to train seriously for his comeback does seem like a pretty big red flag.

[Jingus]

I still don't see how Sting's physical condition was that great an indicator that they'd end up having a shitty match. Yeah, Sting was a lot skinnier than before; but hell, Hogan did some of his career-best work in Japan in the early 90s during the steroid scandal, when he looked like the incredible shrinking man with 24-centimeter pythons. They made the decision to cut his legs off before Sting even got a chance to look like shit in the ring.

 

Especially since a large part of the shittiness was due to the fact that Hogan ate up 90% of the contest, pummelling Sting like a punching bag for most of the match. That's the polar opposite of how this match was called; and it's all on Hulk, he was the veteran and the champion and the heel and the guy with creative control, so he was definitely the one to call the match. Having the not-fast-count and then the nonsensical Bret Hart referee shenanigans just took a match that was already bad, and made it even worse.