Ultimo Guerrero

[Dylan Waco]

Discuss Here.

[Jetlag]

I enjoy the second wind his career is having now that he dropped the mask. That being said his matches were utter skip material for a long time and mostly very much the opposite of what I want from lucha.

[Matt D]

This is what I posted in the nomination thread:

I feel like we need to nominate Ultimo Guerrero even if just to dismiss him. He's been a part of too many great matches over decades, someone who's highs are higher than a huge chunk of people nominated, but whose lows can be extremely low as well.

SC review by Phil/Eric on his hair match vs Rey Escorpion (2015):

http://segundacaida....ear-list_3.html

GdI vs Casas/Santo by me (2001)

http://segundacaida....rno-12-rey.html

SC review by me on Wagner, Guerrero, Euforia vs Casas, Mistico, Sombra (2007).

http://segundacaida....-wagner-jr.html

Singles from 2015. Trios from 2007. Tag from 2001.

All really good matches and performances by UG.

There's something to that. If only he wasn't so crummy in his singles title matches over the years.

[Tim Cooke]

His 2004 CMLL work holds up very well, especially opposite LA PARK. Also think the GDI team holds up fairly well. His post-mask indy run has been super solid. Will have an outside shot in my 100.

[Clayton Jones]

So what about Ultimo sucks so bad outside of his best matches? Because most of what I've seen over the years is very good to great but I've always gotten the sense from more knowledgeable lucha fans that he's like an Angle or HBK. Maybe looks good from the outside but below the surface the substance isn't there? Weird question to ask but can I have some examples of matches that'll help me get a better idea of his flaws? All I've really noticed is a bit of a tendency to excess.

[Matt D]

3 minutes ago, Clayton Jones said:

So what about Ultimo sucks so bad outside of his best matches? Because most of what I've seen over the years is very good to great but I've always gotten the sense from more knowledgeable lucha fans that he's like an Angle or HBK. Maybe looks good from the outside but below the surface the substance isn't there? Weird question to ask but can I have some examples of matches that'll help me get a better idea of his flaws? All I've really noticed is a bit of a tendency to excess.

Back in 2001, when I was in college, on the night before Halloween, my roommate and I went to go see Alice Cooper in Boston. It was the night before because he played New York on Halloween. So he was just over 50. We sit down to see him and the guy behind us says that he sees him every year and has seen him every year for years now and it's always the same show but it's a good show. He told us how things would go. And it's exactly how it went. On Halloween of the next year, he played Boston instead of New York. We went again. It was the same show. It was a good show. No variation. The same show. It's what the people in the crowd expected. It's what they got. It was interactive to a degree. It was ritual. It was preordained.

Years and years and years of guys who may or may not have a moonsault or top rope rana in their arsenal going up to the top so that they could get cut off for the same spots. Rote and ritual. The fans can sing along. Entirely unique in wrestling.

[Jetlag]

5 hours ago, Clayton Jones said:

So what about Ultimo sucks so bad outside of his best matches? Because most of what I've seen over the years is very good to great but I've always gotten the sense from more knowledgeable lucha fans that he's like an Angle or HBK. Maybe looks good from the outside but below the surface the substance isn't there? Weird question to ask but can I have some examples of matches that'll help me get a better idea of his flaws? All I've really noticed is a bit of a tendency to excess.

I gave a pretty vague comment 5 years ago. I was mostly referring to the Mistico matches, and his various big matches he was having in from the mid 2000s onwards where it's always the same formula. Quick first two falls, then the same robotic finishing stretch built around 2.999999s with no build. I didn't even like the Atlantis match much.

 

Having watched some of his earlier work, I gotta say he was actually a pretty decent worker from around 1998 to the early 2000s. I could see him being  a legend if he had more matches in the classic lucha style.

[bennyowens]

Does he have other indie matches along the lines of the Caifan matches from 2019?

[ohtani's jacket]

I'm up to May 2002 in my 00s CMLL viewing and Ultimo Guerrero is a guy who I've come to appreciate. There was no way I would have voted for him in 2006 or 2016 with the bias I had toward classic luchadors, but I'm a firm believer that if I you watch enough of any given wrestler that you come around on them. He was an excellent worker, and you can see that when he's paired against wrestlers like Santo, Casas, Satanico, and Atlantis. For a long time I railed against the state of modern lucha, but I don't have a dog in that fight anymore. I'm no longer resistant to guys like UG who incorporated elements from other wrestling styles and pushed the style forward. I don't know how well his singles work holds up, but the problems I have with his matches are usually related to the booking, the finishes, and the lack of continuity with CMLL TV. 

[Clayton Jones]

Most of what I've seen is 1999-2003 so I guess my high opinion makes sense. I also thought the one Misitico match I've seen was great but maybe if I saw more between them I'd be a little less high on UG in particular (although it wouldn't make me think less of the match). I've also seen a few of his more recent NJPW tags and thought they were good if flawed. Really on the border if I should fit him in as a candidate or not. I really love that Gdl VS Santo/Casas match from 2001.

[Matt D]

Don't get me wrong. I really like UG all the way into 07-08. And I appreciate him a great deal after that.

In the last ten years, he still has the great flashes in certain indy matches and, in truth, if I didn't get it across well enough, I don't know entirely what to make of his rote and ritual Arena Mexico matches. The fans respond. To a good degree he gives them what they want and what they expect. I haven't seen him much in the last few years there, but in general, over the decade, it works for them every time. On paper, it's absolutely something he should be faulted for. In reality? I have absolutely no idea.

[cad]

If I have a hard time not being cynical about Satanico, how am I gonna go into THIS guy's matches with an open mind? With that said, I really don't like the way he works as a base. So often he's clearly just flinging the tecnico around to the point that it's hard to even imagine that it's the good guy who's executing the move. I have the same problem with the way Espectrito worked against Mascarita Sagrada. To me the point of being a base is to hide the fact that you have to do some of the work, and genuinely great bases like Psicosis could do this. Some people hate flashy bumpers, I hate flashy bases. But again, it's likely that I'd have found some other reason not to like Ultimo Guerrero anyway.