Best babyfaces

[Loss]

Everything you guys are saying, of course, is in contradiction to his massive appeal and success as a babyface.  Whether or not you, or a small minority of the wrestling audience, disliked or "saw through" Hogans character doesn't really matter when the vast majority, infact, liked and were convinced that Hogan was a pure, 100%, good guy.  

 

Sherri was evil.  Earthquake was twice his size and also evil.  Vader? Evil.  Beefcake? Evil.

 

Hogan also had a platonic relationship with Miss Elizabeth and when she got injured, he carried her to the back like a true good man would do.  When Savage hid behind Miss Elizabeth, Hogan didn't deck her.  Why?  Because she was good, not evil.

Hogan got the reaction, but arguing that the Hulk Hogan character was a good person is what I'm arguing, which he wasn't. Do the laws of Hulkamania now state that it's okay to abuse evil women? And don't kid yourself on Liz. He abandoned his tag team partner and best friend when he was being doubleteamed by two giants in the ring so he could cop a feel on his best friend's girlfriend and play the hero.

[The Thread Killer]

Rudo, dude...just because Hogan was OVER doesn't mean he was a good face.

 

Hell, look at Austin. He was a TERRIBLE face. When he first started getting cheered he actually used to say that he didn't care what the fans thought, and that he didn't need them making signs with Austin 3:16 on them. (He changed his tune when he found out how much money he could make from the Austin 3:16 shirt.) In the end, he did end up connecting with the people by doing the "gimmie a hell yeah" and the "WHAT" thing...but this is not a guy who gave high fives and thanked the people for their support.

 

Somebody being POPULAR doesn't make them a FACE. You're saying just because he was a big name (the biggest ever) that makes him a good face. Face it, Hogan was a cartoon character. He wasn't able to get across with sincere emotion, and he was protected. This is why he fought "monsters" like King Kong Bundy, Kamala, Killer Khan, etc. Of COURSE people are going to cheer for Hogan against them, but McMahon had to protect him from fighting people that were over.

 

Remember the Orndorff feud? There were tons of people cheering Mr. Wonderful when he turned on Hogan, so much so that Hogan even had to address it on Tuesday Night Titans...saying that anybody who cheered Orndorff was just like him...a cheap shot artist.

 

As I said earlier, on the Jake The Snake DVD, Jake talks about how they once shot a "Snake Pit" segement where Jake attacked Hogan and gave him the DDT. The people cheered, and chanted "DDT DDT DDT." Afterwards, McMahon told Jake that he was too popular to be facing Hogan, and they shit canned the whole angle. (For the record, Jake is full of shit about most stuff but I do believe he was telling the truth about this.)

 

Kids liked Hogan, and bought his stuff. People who knew better could see through the fact that he was totally unbelievable as a face then. Like I said, I totally dug Hogan's face turn after WM18 because it was sincere. I saw the Hulk Rules DVD and when I saw some people who were little kids when he was big the first time, coming up to him and thanking him and crying and shit, it was moving...but that doesn't change the fact that Hogan was tons better as a heel in the NWO and as Humble Hogan in the WWE then he was in the 80's.

 

Dusty Rhodes? Now THERE is a man who was able to connect with the people. His promos came across as real. Son of a plummer. The fact that based on his promos alone he was able to get people to cheer for him, despite the fact that he is not one little bit athletic looking...that's a face.

 

What about Terry Funk in Japan? Have you seen him and Dory against Abdullah and The Sheik from 12/15/77?

 

After WWII, Japanese wrestling promoters had an easy gimmick. Book American wrestlers, they fight the Japanese hero, and the fans cheer the home country hero. It?s simple. The Japanese did not like Americans because of the harsh sanctions on Japan after the war, so they liked to see a native son beat an American at something. Of course, there were guys like The Destroyer who the fans grew to love, but I think it would be fair to say that most fans disliked Americans.

 

One other thing the Japanese people loved back then, was MONSTERS. Think about it, this is the country that brought us, Godzilla, Mothra, Rodan, etc. So one of the other popular booking ideas of that era was to bring in evil looking heels, who did things like bite, scratch, and stab. The fans would actually scream at the sight of these men, like ?The Vampire? Freddy Blassie, The Original Shiek, and Abdullah The Butcher. Men like these would cheat (which the fans hated) and act like animals, which they loved to hate.

 

Giant Baba, understood that you could only book America vs. Japan matches so many times before the fans got bored of it. So he decided to use the annual ?Real World Tag Team Tournament? in 1977 to change things over. The way the tournament worked out, was that only one team stood in Abdullah and The Shiek?s way?

 

The Funk Brothers.

 

The Funk brothers were American, but at least the Japanese fans respected them, because they wrestled. Both of them were former NWA World Heavyweight Champions, a title the fans respected. Both of them showed respect to Japanese Wrestlers, they shook hands, and bowed. So when the choice came down to it, and the fans had to pick who to cheer, the choice was easy.

 

In order to make sure his plan worked, Baba told The Funk Brothers and Abdullah and The Shiek to pull out all the stops. The heels must be booked to look as evil as possible. n order to make sure the fans cheered, the Funk Brothers had to put up with extra violence.

 

Watch this match. You will see an unusally hyped Japanese crowd, and you will also see Abdullah The Butcher and The Shiek do what they do best?stab people with stuff. It?s a brilliant piece of booking, and a match I still love to watch today. Watch Terry selling, and that is how a face gets sympathy.

 

Hell, watch him against Tiger Jeet Singh in the IWA King of the Deathmatch Tournament in 1995. Funk fights Singh in a "broken glass" death match and if he doesn't have your sympathy after that, I'd be surprised. Here he is backstage giving this calm, rational interview (which for those of you who have seen a "heel" Terry interview will note is a switch) saying how he hopes the good lord is with him, and thanks the people...and then he gets tortured.

 

Now THAT is a FACE.

[Guest EastCoastJ]

Hogan from a logical standpoint was one of the biggest douchebags of his time. He practically put himself on equal footing with God in his promos, he beat up women, he made racist remarks about his opponents, beat up managers, people with injuries, put himself over as being as if not more heroic than our troops in Iraq during the Gulf War, he gouged the eyes, raked the back, interfered in the Wrestlemania IV main event like a heel. The fans ate it up with a spoon for the most part though, so I guess he was incredibly over if not a great babyface.

 

Speaking of bad bayfaces, I would probably rank Mil Mascaras as one of the worst babyfaces that I have ever seen. He never sold for anyone, never really looked like he was in any danger of losing a match, and pretty much never did.

[The Thread Killer]

LOL remember in Mick Foley's book?

 

"Maybe sucking your gut in and walking around on your tip toes for 20 years is enough to make you a legend in Mexico."

 

And the classic:

 

"He hit me with his dropkick, or as he called it...his dropkiss"

[Loss]

Eh, Mascaras was awesome against Destroyer.

[Guest TheShawshankRudotion]

Bullfuckingshit.

 

A babyface is only defined by how loud he can get the audience to cheer him. That is the foundation and fundamental purpose for a babyface. All this shit you guys are talking about is just the typical ways to garner a face reation, it's not a set criteria for being a babyface.

 

Rocky Miavia did all this shit that should have gotten him cheered yet he got boo'd. He was "technically" a good babyface, but the crowd hated him, so he couldn't have been a good babyface.

 

This is just hate hate hate, for Hogan. Fuck all yall haters. "Those who knew better" can suck my cock. I wrote a fucking letter to Hogan when he was crushed by Earthquake. A FUCKING LETTER. I didn't send it cause wrestlings fake, but jesus christ, I wished him a speedy recovery dammit. Did you all write the fucking Funks or Ricky Steamboat a letter? Fuck no. Fuck you. Fuckin haters.

[Coffey]

I wrote Hogan a letter after Earthquake squashed him too. Heh. I was such a mark.

 

I remember during Wrestlemania 6 I thought I was going to get sick. I didn't know who I wanted to win.

[sek69]

Bullfuckingshit on your bullfuckingshit.

 

If a heel gets cheered for doing heel tactics to a face, then the face isn't very good in his role.

[Loss]

"Good" and "effective" aren't synonyms. No one is denying that Hogan was effective, and I think at times, he was a very good babyface in the ring as well. I just think it's the responsibility of the top babyface to create the moral structure of the entire company, meaning his actions are unabashedly right and his foil's actions are unabashedly wrong. It's why I'm a Bret Hart fan, and it's also why it was hard to side with Hogan, even as a little kid, when Jesse Ventura was making points about his behavior that were accurate.

 

Michaels gets a lot of cheers these days. Are you saying that his face character *is* a great one and that he *doesn't* ever come across as a self-righteous asshole?

[Loss]

We haven't even scratched the surface on my favorites. More on all of these -- and more -- later.

 

Ricky Morton

Jerry Lawler

Tsuyoshi Kikuchi

Bret Hart

Rey Misterio Jr

Eddy Guerrero

Chris Benoit

Barry Windham

Hacksaw Duggan

Kenta Kobashi

Giant Baba

[Guest TheShawshankRudotion]

I think Shawn is a great babyface because the way he carries himself in the ring. When he enters the ring and after his pose he starts clapping and the fans clap along. He panders to the crowd in several ways, trying to rally them behind him. He is trying so hard to get the crowd to stomp along with him with SCM. He builds his matches in a way that gets a great crowd reaction. This is what a face is supposed to do. Not just act cookie cutter and golly-gee-willikers do the right thing all the time.

[Mad Dog]

Hacksaw Duggan

Duggan had a lot of heel antics though. There were a lot of unjustified 2x4 attacks on various heels.

[Loss]

I'm thinking more pre-WWF Duggan. He sucked by the time he got a national stage.

[Mad Dog]

I'm tempted to say Koko B. Ware. Not sure if he was really above average but he had to be doing something right to be as over as he was while never winning.

[Guest Alfdogg]

I wrote to Hogan, too. I still have the postcard somewhere in my closet.

[Loss]

I'm tempted to say Koko B. Ware.  Not sure if he was really above average but he had to be doing something right to be as over as he was while never winning.

Koko rocked. One of the more underrated workers of his era, and a strong ability to play face or heel. His Memphis stuff is quite awesome.

[Mad Dog]

I always felt kind of bad for the guy. Had he been born just a decade later he could've seen some serious pushes. He was just too small for the era he worked in.

[Loss]

He did well for himself before going to the WWF, but you're right that he probably could have done better.

[Mad Dog]

I don't remember seeing it posted but I'll add Ted Dibiase. Excellent face in Mid-South.

[The Thread Killer]

A babyface is only defined by how loud he can get the audience to cheer him.

I disagree. I think a face should be judged by how well he plays the role overall. Let's be honest...a great deal of wrestling fans are idiots. They cheer for stuff like "HLA." Does that make the Bischoff on screen character a face for providing it, and the bimbos faces for doing it? I think not. A great face plays the part of a "good guy" to perfection.

 

And no...I never wrote Funk or Steamboat a letter. The Funk match I mentioned happened when I was 7 years old...in Japan...and I only saw it a couple of years ago. By the time I was 33, I was past writing wrestlers.

 

And I never wrote Steamboat either. Maybe I'm unlike most fans...I started watching wrestling in 1980, when I was 10, but I knew it was fake then. This is why when characters I liked got hurt or attacked and it sucked me in, it was like watching a good movie...and when people like Hogan got attacked I laughed a lot.

 

Was the Earthquake attack the one where he was kicking his legs comically and foaming at the mouth afterwards? If so, that was FUNNY. Hogan is like the worst actor EVER. That's why he was so great in the nWo...he's a HAM.

[Guest TheShawshankRudotion]

But this goes back to what wrestling is. Wrestling is about making money. If it was about quality of story, or athletic competition, then it wouldn't really be the way it is. The reason there are heels and babyfaces is to make money from fans who want to see the babyface beat up the heel. The louder those fans cheer, the more behind the wrestler they are, the more money they will spend to support that wrestler.

 

I don't think you're way of evaluating faces is wrong. It's perfectly valid to break things down and evaluate it through its own merit and all that junk. But recognize that neither is mine. That wrestling's primary function is to make money. Hogan was a great babyface. Very few have been able to rally an audience behind them like Hulk Hogan has. If he wasn't a great babyface, that wouldn't have been possible. To write off the fans as being stupid for cheering him is absurd. If it was a one time thing, maybe, but Hogan has consistently been able to rally the fans for years. Clearly there's something Hogan does to get that positive reaction.

 

If there was a wrestler who "played the role well", and I already presented Rocky Miavia as an example, and they get boo'd, would you still consider them a good babyface?

[The Thread Killer]

My argument against Miavia is this...at that particular time in wrestling history I think if Hogan played his 80's schtick in the WWF he would have been booed out of the building. That was right when he was finding that out in WCW...and Austin was about to explode in the WWF. That was around the birth of the anti-hero. For the record, I thought Rocky sucked too...mostly because of his hair and ridiculous ring attire. I also don't think that the anti-hero thing has been good for wrestling...it makes the heel and face roles much less defined and results in almost everybody wanting to act like a badass and not look cowardly.

 

Obviously I would be a moron to say that Hogan didn't draw money, the man was a human cash register for gawd's sake. If you are saying "who is the most popular wrestler ever with the fans" then I would probably say Hogan or Austin. But my point is that in the overall package, he was not as convincing at playing that role as other people were...people who didn't get the publicity he did.

 

It brings up an interesting argument. McMahon once said that he could have done what he did with Hogan with somebody else in the 80's but he "chose" Hogan. I wonder if that's true...or if Hogan was as good as some people think he was. In the 90's in WCW before turning heel, Hogan proved that his tried and true formula didn't always work...but could somebody else have done what Hogan did in the 80's if not Hogan?

[Guest TheShawshankRudotion]

Hogan was one of, if not thee, most over guy in the AWA, at least from what I have seen of him in that time period. It wasn't just a WWF thing with Vince pushing him really hard, Hogan himself was an excellent performer. A big guy with his charisma and a flair for dramatics isn't exactly the easiest thing to find. If it was just a matter of the machine, then Vince should have been able to do the same thing with Lex Luger, Diesel, Sid, etc. but he didn't.

 

I don't think Hogan getting boo'd after years and years and years of being the main guy is a knock against him or his ability as a babyface, it's a testiment, actually. Look at John Cena right now, the dude is getting those same boos and it hasn't even been in the top spot for a full year.

 

Your point with Miavia and the anti-hero, I think, helps further the argument that the best way to define a babyface is by how they get the crowds to react and how successful they are. Times change. Tastes change. What works as a babyface one day, may not work the next. A babyface in 1999 didn't function the same way a babyface did in 1989, or 1979, or 1969. The only standard that stays the same is the audiences reaction: they cheer, they boo, or they stay silent. The best babyfaces get them to cheer the loudest, the best heels get them to boo the loudest, and the worst make them silent.

[Guest SweetMama Scaat]

It looks like things have gotten blurry and we need to be more precise.

 

 

Before this thread contiunes can we get the EXACT definition of what Loss was looking for when he meant "best babyface". Popularity? Morality? Crowd Support? Selling? Merchandising? Something else entirely...?

 

 

I was under the impression that me meant constant hero, saves the damsel in distress, helps his friends and always does whats right. Its Loss' thread so he should let us know what he was looking for.

[Guest EastCoastJ]

I would actually attribute Hogan getting booed in 1992 to the cultural changes going on at the time. The country became way more cynical around the time of the Gulf War, and the feel good nature of the 1980's really went sour pretty quickly. Ratings started to sink across the board for family oriented sitcoms and things of that nature too.