Between the Sheets #30 (February 9-15, 1993) (Featuring Kris & David)

[KrisZ]

 

Kris & David are riding solo this week talking about the week that was February 9-15, 1993. We talk about the entire restructuring of WCW with Bill Watts being fired and Jim Ross on his way out the door as well as how Pro Wrestling Torch was the catalyst for Watts’ dismissal. We also talk about Ric Flair coming back to WCW, Big Van Vader signing with UWFi, just how hot was Japan at this time, AAA vs. EMLL war raging on, Lex Luger showing up in Memphis, Hulk Hogan returning to WWF, & Dr. D David Shultz with all kinds of shenanigans. A tremendous show!!!!!

 

0:00:00 WCW
1:56:23 Japan: NJPW, UWFI, WAR, NOW, PWC, AJW, & JWP
2:34:00 North America Non-USA: Calgary, AAA, EMLL, & UWA
2:51:17 Other USA: GWF, SMW, USWA, & Potpourri
3:15:17 WWF

 

http://placetobenation.com/between-the-sheets-30-february-9-15-1993/

[WrestlingPower]

Fascinating stuff to hear in 2016. I hadn't even thought back on that period in enough detail to grasp that Watts was saying all that stuff to Wade Keller of all people.

 

It's also very interesting to realize that hardcore fan narrative since that point in time has largely overlooked the content of Watts' statements as less important than what he brought to the business. By & large everyone's hatred of Mark Madden started here. He was known as the guy who couldn't mind his own business & in the pursuit of a story or whatever stirred up crap that resulted in Watts being fired. To this day people hate him as a result of that. Bruce Mitchell has been maligned over the years for much the same. It's just very complex that wrestling fans can both be appalled that Watts said that stuff & at the same time are upset that he got ran out of a job that everyone was looking forward to him being able to save their favorite company.

[Parties]

Absolutely fantastic episode. What an insane week when you consider that the migrations of Hogan, Flair, Vader, and Luger were all peripheral news that in another week could have been the top story. Doing two hours on the Watts story/WCW shakeup was great, and honestly I could have heard two hours more as it's an amazing piece of history. Hearing Watts' audio adds so much to the context as it's that much more of an indictment to really listen to it coming from him, and get the weird complexity and contradictions at play. And of course usage of Newman to close out the show was inspired as well.

[SteveMPunk]

I absolutely love these shows, thanks guys!

[KrisZ]

The audio of Watts was like I said captivating and then you add in poor Wade hearing the homophobic remarks.....

[PeteF3]

That Cornette audio sounds like it came from the uncensored version that aired on SMW. Which is better, of course.

 

The Bodies' attack on Maggs & Mustafa came a week or so after that confrontation, after Watts and Bob Armstrong announced that the Bodies were being put into the SuperBrawl match to replace the Wrecking Crew.

[KrisZ]

Yes you are correct the Center Stage taping was the day before so it aired on Saturday Night....I got my shows mixed up.

[Hegs]

I just started listening to this on the way home from work and I'm still on the Watts/Madden part. I was have to shake my head when people start talking about freedom of speech and think it means you can say anything without repercussions. Freedom of speech only applies to the Federal and State Governments and its lawmaking abilities (which even has its limitations and exceptions) and not to privately owned businesses. Watts couldn't be arrested for what he said but certainly could have been and was fired for it-agree with that concept or not. I am assuming Watts cowboy attitude was the reason WCW would be run by "non-wrestling" people until its collapse.

Bix-where did you get Ole's statement to TBP's attorneys? I'm sure that's an interesting read.

[Bix]

I just started listening to this on the way home from work and I'm still on the Watts/Madden part. I was have to shake my head when people start talking about freedom of speech and think it means you can say anything without repercussions. Freedom of speech only applies to the Federal and State Governments and its lawmaking abilities (which even has its limitations and exceptions) and not to privately owned businesses. Watts couldn't be arrested for what he said but certainly could have been and was fired for it-agree with that concept or not. I am assuming Watts cowboy attitude was the reason WCW would be run by "non-wrestling" people until its collapse.

Bix-where did you get Ole's statement to TBP's attorneys? I'm sure that's an interesting read.

 

The Ole deal was an exhibit in the big 2000 vintage discrimination lawsuit. Should probably do something with it.

[Beast]

I think that overall what he said was preposterous, but I always get stuck on the first part about denying service to whomever you please. In the context, I feel like he was saying that business owners should have the right to deny service to anyone they want, but they'll have to face the consequences when that segregated business model costs them money. Then he goes on to give examples in the first person using derogatory remarks, but what are you going to expect from a guy who grew up in Oklahoma in the '40s?

 

I'd LOVE to hear him share his philosophy while in conversation with someone who'd actually question him about his views. Not that Wade necessarily should have at that time being a 21-year-old sheet writer.

 

Sidenote: Fascinating stuff, but did we really need Kris to read through the transcript for you both to comment on first, before actually listening to Watts, continually pause and comment more? Seemed a bit overkill. Could have spared Kris the horror of reading those thoughts aloud.

[Bix]

I think that overall what he said was preposterous, but I always get stuck on the first part about denying service to whomever you please. In the context, I feel like he was saying that business owners should have the right to deny service to anyone they want, but they'll have to face the consequences when that segregated business model costs them money. Then he goes on to give examples in the first person using derogatory remarks, but what are you going to expect from a guy who grew up in Oklahoma in the '40s?

 

I'd LOVE to hear him share his philosophy while in conversation with someone who'd actually question him about his views. Not that Wade necessarily should have at that time being a 21-year-old sheet writer.

 

Sidenote: Fascinating stuff, but did we really need Kris to read through the transcript for you both to comment on first, before actually listening to Watts, continually pause and comment more? Seemed a bit overkill. Could have spared Kris the horror of reading those thoughts aloud.

 

Re: Wade: Absolutely, but...something like this is never gonna happen again. He doesn't really give interviews anymore anyway, and he always has to be the alpha anyway. I don't have his book anymore and have no memory of what he did to walk back his comments there...maybe he did on Jim Ross's podcast? I know he addressed Heyman's antisemitism allegations.

 

Re: Kris reading the comments, I asked him what he wanted to do, and he agreed with what I was thinking before I even argued for it: The legacy until the audio came out, as put forth by Dave (and I think Wade to an extent, but I may be wrong), was just how much worse it sounded with Watts' voice and conviction behind it. Yeah, I'm sure a decent chunk of our audience has read the comments at some point, but I'm sure a lot haven't, as well. So you need that shift from "Here's Kris incredulously reading what Watts said" to "here's Watts saying it." If it had originally been a radio interview, I'm guessing we would have gone straight into the clip. Even if most smart fans would have found out from the newsletters, a significant chunk would have still heard the original comments on Major Market Wrestling Radio Show X and there would be less of an "Oh my GOD, it's even worse than I thought!" reaction.

[Beast]

Here's Wade's analysis written in response to Watts' comments about the situation on a 2009 WWE produced WCW History DVD:

 

"In Bill Watts's book, "The Cowboy and the Cross," and in this new documentary interview, he leaves out some key details, including the liberal use of the derogatory slang word for gays, and at the very least his poor choice of wording by saying he got into business so he could discriminate. If you're a TBS executive who put Watts in charge of hiring and firing a major division in your company, and that interview was published before you hired him, and now it's been brought to the attention of other Turner executives including an advocate for racial equality in Hank Aaron, you might get understandably nervous.

I just wish Watts, rather than ignoring the reality of what he said in my interview with him, would apologize for it and acknowledge that in the midst of a libertarian rant about individual rights, he spoke in the first person when he didn't intend to and used inflammatory language that doesn't reflect his actual views and how he's lived his life. By not acknowledging at all that he really went too far with his wording and did express extremely controversial points of views that might get anyone who hired him in trouble, he comes off as disingenuous and dishonest.

It's very difficult to defend words that include saying the best thing that ever happened to Blacks was being brought to the U.S. in shackles and chains and held captive as slaves without voting rights for generations and decades. It's also very difficult for him to act outraged that a publicly traded corporation didn't want someone in a hiring and firing position who used the term "the f---in' Blacks!" and "I should have the right not to associate with fags" and "Why should I have to hire a f---in' fag if I don't like fags?" and "Fags discriminate against us, don't they?" At some point, all Watts can do is perhaps chuckle and say he can't believe the corporate suits hired him in the first place."

[Beast]

And...

 

The proceeding is a letter obtained from a TBS source that was sent to
TBS executive Hank Aaron by Bill Watts on April 11, 1993:

Dear Hank,

Mr. Bill Shaw made me aware of a call you received from Mark Madden, a
writer for a Pittsburgh newspaper and also for an insider wrestling
newsletter pubiished by Wade Keller. (Madden's editorials in this
newsletter are in my opinion often very personal, beyond the bounds of
journalistic integrity, and probably on occasions the libel and
slander status).

I was unawre of his call to you or his accusatiuns, and I had alteady
resigned for my own reasons from World Championship Wrestling prior to
Bill Shaw's revelation of this accusation so it had nothing to do with
my departure from TBS. (l'm sure had I not already resigned, I was a
"corporate liability.")

It is my understanding thst he used an article written by one of these
"insider wrestling sheets" some two years ago, taken from an interview
with me that because of a small portion of it in it's context and
perception by some would label me an avowed racist, thereby becoming
an embarrassment to TBS and to you considering your stand on the Marge
Schott issue. I also feel we have crossed the Rubicon as to what is
now "politically correct" to think or say versus freedom of speech in
America. However, I want to present my position to you.

1. That article was in the possession of TBS executives prior to my
hiring in WCW; and I had already responded to that very allegation
prior to being hired

2. My track record in the wrestling business has been the most
pro-black of any promoter/owner in the history of this business!

At this point let me regress. I was raised in a non-ethnic environment
in Oklahoma. I attended all white schools (not by design, there were
no blacks, Hispanics, or Orientals living in our area). At the
University of Oklahoma the first black athlete to "break the barrier"
was there when I was. Prentice Gaunt was and is a credit to to the
human race. Wallace Johnson was the second black player and I
considered him a friend also. Prentice went on to a distinguished pro
football career and became a Commissioner in the Big Eight. He wrote
of his experiences at O.U. and our racist attitudes. I was shocked of
his opinions as we all respected and supported him - but that was my
perspective, and I realized that from his perspective we were - some
naively so and some purposefully.

Prior to attending O.U., on a recruiting trip to New Orleans and the
Sugar Bowl, I got into an altercation on a street car with whites
because I sat with blacks in the back (1957 Sugar Bowl)

In pro-wrestling, I considered Bobo Brazil a friend and I respected
him. Art Thomas, Thunderbolt Patterson, and Ernie Ladd were blacks I
associated with, rode with, worked with, ate with, and had discourse
with. When I became a promoter/owner in 1970, I integrated black
wrestlers into my promotion. I was called in front of the Louisiana
State Athletic Commission because I told the promoter (State
appointed) in Baton Rouge they could no longer segregate the seating.
I also instigated getting Monroe, Louisiana's Mayor, to allow a black
wrestler to wrestle a white wrestler. (Prior to that blacks could only
wrestle blacks.) My top box office attraction was a great black
athlete, Sylvester Ritter, whom I named The Junk Yard Dog. He set box
office records for me throughout the South. I had the first (and only)
black "Booker" in the wrestling business, Ernie Ladd. (That's the
equivalent of an NFL head coach or baseball manager.)

When I came to WCW I made Ron Simmons the first black World's Champion
of a truly major wrestling organization. I also made Brenda Smith the
Office Manager, and Teddy Long's role as a black announcer was
expanded and recognized formally (the first one). All of these people
were placed in these positions based on ability not as a "token."
Let's see how WCW follows up on that now that I'm gone!? (I discovered
Too Cold Scorpio and had the video produced on him.)

My position is controversial - admittedly so, but could also be more
truthful. I believe all people are racists. If you don't believe that,
attend the next riot and see how sides are drawn. However, I believe
people through sports, education, understanding, compassion or faith
in God, have different tolerance or acceptance levels. I accept people
as they accept me, or for their ability.

3. Now to the article: I feel they took it out of the context of what
was said, and left part of it out. They made several errors in the
article, but other than tell the writer he did, I proceeded no
further. Yes, I feel it's a shame we must legislate laws against
discrimination. I believe in free enterprise. If a person can start a
business and discriminate AND be successful in business - that's free
enterprise. Ideally free enterprise should not support such success. I
believe that if you own your own business, accept no tax dollars as
support, that you should be free to run it any way you see fit that's
legal. I believe you should be able to discriminate against
homosexuals, filth, dress, or race if you so desire. (To me the
Japanese are truly the biggest racists invading the U.S. We as a
nation condone that!) Hopefully the economic competition would
determine your guidelines rather than radical extremes.

As to my statement about "Roots": In that era, slavery was very
common. To me "Roots"' presentation was skewed to make the U.S. feel
guilty as a country. I do not believe we are "guilty" as it was
accepted world wide. Our country was divided over the issue. Our
country addressed the issue as no other country and fought an internal
civil war! We should be acclaimed for that!

I feel the series should also have shown that not all slaves were
trapped or taken by force. In many instances their own chiefs sold
them into slavery for trinkets or trade goods. Slavery in Africa
continued long after the U.S. discontinued it.

"Roots" did help to bring together and present black history to
solidify black pride - an important process.

Now I want to go one step further (and more controversial). Slavery is
abominable. But God works in mysterious ways. Israel was enslaved in
Egypt for 400 yesrs (to survive a famine). To me the greatest benefit
to the black race was being in America (not how they got here - but
that they got here!) Through this process, and struggle, blacks got
educated and integrated and have been able to be a significant part of
America and have been able to help blacks world wide!!!

More atrocities have been perpetrated by blacks on blacks than the
American slave trade. Idi Amin, Papa Doc, the third world black
dictators have mass murdered their own race. Even now in South Africa
the black vs. black warfare is predominant. What black country thirty
years ago was fiscally solvent? (lsn't it also a paradox that Muslims
were very predominant in the slave trade.) So, yes as God used slavery
to preserve the Jews (who have been discriminated against as much as
the blacks - where complete genocide of their race has been attempted
many times) in Egypt, their struggle was their preservation and
strengthened their race. Can that too possibly be applied to the
blacks and their history in America?! I'm sure you realize Chinese and
Irish also died in droves digging canals in New Orleans (7000 on one
canal alone) and building railroads. America has had tremendous ethnic
struggle. It has helped forge this nation - a land of opportunity, not
a guarantee, but an opportunity.

The bottom line is - I should not be discriminated against for my
views - especially when my actions prove my racial acceptance and
encouragement. I believe it proves the viciousness of the person who
called you - as my record is well known. Also, I find ridiculous the
Klu Klux Klan with their extreme on racism based an God?! It just
doesn't compute in my Bible or in Christ's example (and certianly I'm
a long ways from most peoples concept of a Christian - but I believe
in God). Hopefully my logic, especially my references to a Supreme
Being won't label me as a radical - but you'll read this as it is
written. Yes, in my life I have used racial expressions in anger and
in jest - and probably wi11 continue to do so. When I say racial I do
not just mean black, but Hispanic, Polish, Italian, Jewish, Japanese,
Greek, Puertorican, etc. I also enjoy jokes about blonds, women,
homosexuals, and many other forms of humor - but that doesn't reflect
in my business ar personal history.

I wasn't running for political office. I also have been the object of
such humor by Blacks, Polocks, Japs, and Mexicans, and found it to
illustrate very funny traits I have and be able to laugh at myself.

The night we rode to the Clash at Center Stage together, I had asked
to be in the limo with you in order to meet you - not because you are
black, but because of your accomplishments. Thank God for sports.

I also feel we shared common ground about how "beyond the pale" sports
has gone and how little control of the athletes there is, and that a
crisis is inevitable.

I'm part Cherokee Indian, and proud of it. The Indians have been and
continue to be discriminated, murdered, and enslaved. In Canada and
parts of the U.S. we are more racially discriminated against than
blacks. Visit one of our reservations - they were before ghettos.

Thanks for reading this - at least you have my side of the story.
Isn't corporate America insidious and hypocritical?! The corporate
term "friend" is a little ambiguous isn't it? Is ever a person's true
integrity and ability smeared and discredited by just such accusations
and innuendo?!!

Sincerely,
Bill Watts

[Beast]

Also was reading some comments on Wrestling Classics about all this and Scott Williams and Dave Meltzer acknowledged the awfulness of Watts' words, but said he's not a racist and that he's changed his views since then and regrets saying what he did the way he said it.

[Bix]

I had totally forgotten about that letter. Is the date right? Two month delay sounds wrong.

 

Also: While obviously, with the benefit of hindsight, he was able to explain himself better (whether or not he did it WELL is an entirely different matter), he doesn't address the comment about intermarriage, where the obvious implication is...unfortunate.

[KrisZ]

The deal with my reading was I wanted to do it but when it came time for the mass bigotry I had a friend walk in who wouldn't have known the context of what I was speaking of.

[Beast]

I had totally forgotten about that letter. Is the date right? Two month delay sounds wrong.

 

Also: While obviously, with the benefit of hindsight, he was able to explain himself better (whether or not he did it WELL is an entirely different matter), he doesn't address the comment about intermarriage, where the obvious implication is...unfortunate.

 

Yeah, I was hoping he'd come out a little cleaner after reading his reaction, but his letter is full of lots of misguided phrasing and comments. Like maybe he should have kept it short and sweet.

 

I don't know about the date, just grabbed it from Wrestling Classics.

[Bix]

On a lighter note: Every Bill Watts letter or speech seemingly has a bunch of the same highspots: Native American heritage, Ernie Ladd, the free market, etc. Like if he suddenly started telling Hank Aaron about Bruno benching 600 pounds without ever touching a steroid, would anyone really be surprised?

[KrisZ]

He definitely has his bullet points down

[WrestlingPower]

Re: Debbie Malenko, I need to go back & watch her. I remember based on the limited stuff I saw at the time & the reputation she had among the hardcore community that if she hadn't gotten hurt, she probably would have been a big deal in the late 90s. She was totally out of the business by then when there were 4-5 joshi groups running so she definitely would have fit in.

[Beast]

As if I haven't posted enough yet, I just wanted to thank Kris and Bix for being so consistent with these. These shows make it really easy to workout since each week you have 3-4 days worth of listening, even if you listen to some off the treadmill too. I haven't gone back too often, but I feel like these shows will be easily re-listenable since each episode has so much packed in.

[mprice]

In another completely terrible/great combination, how about 93 Sid v 93 Akira Taue? That might be one of the most awkward combinations that anyone could come up with....ever.

[pantherwagner]

I haven't seen this in more than a decade but I remember Fujinami vs VICIOUS WARRIOR from 1989 being a lot more watchable than it had any right to be.

 

Sid and Hansen were a tag team once or twice on Worldwide (I think), maybe that's where they got the idea from. I thought they looked badass together.