ThROH The Years: A ROH retrospective podcast

[Hobbes]

21 hours ago, hhhisthegame said:

It's interesting, despite how much Im enjoying this watch, I often find myself not loving the in-ring style of the average ROH matches, which at times can feel a bit aimless to me, without the build and climax of matches you see in WWE, or the nonstop action of TNA. ROH seems to occupy a weird middle ground to me. I loved early stiff matches with guys like Low Ki, Styles, Joe, but some kind of energy I thought went out when they lost Low Ki. And Ive really been feeling ROH misses Paul London. I was kind of surprised to see positive reception in online reviews for Homicide/Briscoe and Punk/Hydro (you guys liked the latter as well). I found both of those matches to be pretty weak, and neither really did anything for me at all (Besides making me think that I can't believe Jay Briscoe planted himself on his head seemingly on purpose at the end there for the post-match angle). The wrestling was fine but it just seemed like stuff happening without much flow (in my opinion).

The funny thing is I agree with you about some ROH matches feeling just like stuff happening, but yet that ends up being the direction modern indie wrestling moves to. I'm not saying there still aren't great matches, but you watch recent years of say, PWG, and there's definitely less emphasis on telling stories in and out of the ring. So when I watch old ROH some matches I'll be like "Oh yeah, this is where the trend starts" and others I'll be thinking "There aren't enough matches like this today".

21 hours ago, hhhisthegame said:

Hydro did not stand out to me here, which I got the feeling he was supposed to, and I think this was when I really started thinking of Paul London and how much he knew how to work the story aspect of a match in a way that not many people do, and its a shame that his ROH run was so short-lived with so much more potential, and then he never reached that potential anywhere else. I was honestly shocked just HOW good he was because I had no idea from seeing just his WWE stuff. His matches with Styles/Bryan were awesome and he added some direction I think in how he played sympathetic babyface. He even got matches with Xavier very over (though I also miss Xavier who I was surprisingly really enjoying since he returned for the field of honor). It's sad to think about what could have been with him, in general. 

If you listen to the show, I don't need to tell you how much I love Paul London in ROH. One of the biggest revelations to me on rewatch so far has been that if you take the one year he was in ROH, from mid-02 to mid-03, I think it compares well to basically any other wrestler's year in the first 2-3 years of ROH. But he's not remembered like Ki or Danielson. It's infuriating to think that not only did WWE squander his best years, but seemed to snuff out a lot of his passion for wrestling in general.

Hydro/Lethal is, much like the Briscoes and Rocky Romero, a guy who developed his in-ring skills before he really got comfortable as a promo and character. It seems like for a lot of wrestlers, getting good in the ring is what comes first, it's everything else that takes years to get comfortable with. Even Danielson, who I always thought got unfair flack for having no charisma early on, gets way more confident doing promos throughout his entire career.

21 hours ago, hhhisthegame said:

Anyway, the qualification matches were just ok, but I LOVED the Danielson/Evans match, just watching Danielson stretch him and look like a monster. I couldn't believe it when you guys said Danielson was only 23 here. I never would have guessed he was so young, even knowing how old he is today. I didn't stop and do the math and he comes across as a veteran, not a rookie. It's really impressive. It's interesting seeing him slow down his style a bit from his first year in ROH. It was also interesting how quickly the fans turned on Matt Stryker (though I also really don't like him). I was curious about the fan who seemingly yelled "You're not even the best Matt Stryker" considering Matt Striker (who I assume he'd be referring to?) had yet to debut in WWE. Was he making a name for himself on local indys? 

One of the amazing things about Danielson is he was so good almost immediately. I haven't seen nearly as much pre-ROH Bryan as other people but he earned a rep for being one of the best guys in the US indies very quickly, at a very young age. The old wrestling geek review site of the day, Death Valley Driver, used to do a ranking of the top 500 wrestlers in the entire world twice a year. Danielson first shows up on the list in November 2000 at #284. He would've been 19 then. By their next list in May of '01, he's #42. By November of '01 he's #19 and by May '02 he's #8.

I would say the other Matt Striker was actually less famous than the ROH Stryker until he became infamous for being fired from his school teaching job for using his sick days to work a tour in Japan. He got a big 15 minutes of fame then that resulted in him getting signed by WWE, which began his commentary career.

21 hours ago, hhhisthegame said:

The main event, overall, I thought was awesome. I didn't expect the Danielson win. I DEFINITELY didn't expect Cabana to pin joe, but as a Cabana fan I was really excited and hope it leads to some bigger opportunities for him. That came out of nowhere and the crowd reacted huge. (Reminds me of my excitement when Cabana somehow made his way up the top five for that brief period in 2003, but nothing ever came of that)

Without spoiling anything, Cabana ends up being the real utility player for Gabe in ROH, the guy he can slot anywhere in the card. He can be in main events fighting for titles, he can be in big feuds, he can be in opening comedy matches and he can do anything in between. Cabana post-Europe trip around this point in 2004 is when I feel he really starts to reach a new level and eventually he'll get more to do than just being Punk's pal.

22 hours ago, hhhisthegame said:

I loved your guys discussion about the contendership circle/ring. The system itself was funny enough, but I cannot at Gabe being forced to acknowledge they don't know what to call it, and then from that point on, consistently referring to it as the "contendership ring or circle" and the "contendership ring or contendership circle". Absolute peak Gabe Sapolski commentary. I was dying at that.

Im excited to find out what the new code of honor is next show. I hope it's as uselessly enforced as the last one, where they claim that ROH is different because here you won't see any of these things, and then they proceed to break all of these rules from like show 1. The code of honor is so ridiculous because it doesn't make any sense in kayfabe (outside interference and ref bumps are always illegal in every company), so the only thing you can take it as is an out-of-kayfabe promise to the fans. But then it even fails at that because they don't even follow their own rules.  I realize ROH was better about this than the other companies at the time, so compared to WWE and TNA they definitely did less of it, but I still think its silly. I forget which show it was where a valet interfered and Gabe goes into a long rant about how this wasn't really interfering in the match for some reason which was also hilarious. This is why I will miss his commentary in all its over-explainy insecure glory. 

If you love crazy ROH rules, pretend to be disappointed! Same with the ranking systems! I love that Gabe tried ranking systems but I think unless you're a major company, it doesn't work. WCW did it 30 years ago, but they were a promotion with 4-5 hours or more of weekly TV, with a big contracted roster. Trying to have serious meaningful rankings when you're an indie running two shows a month with no one under contract is nearly impossible, and I think you see Gabe slowly learn that the hard way in the first few years of ROH.

The Code of Honor was corny but I always have to remind myself what the state of wrestling was in '02. WWF and WCW had just spent years having a million run-in's and BS finishes. The Code of Honor I think was very much the pendulum swinging hard in the other direction and I think was basically ROH telling hardcore fans that were sick of the bullshit "If you watch us, you're going to see mostly clean finishes". That's something that will ebb and flow over the years with ROH though.

22 hours ago, hhhisthegame said:

Anyway, overall I'm really enjoying the show and the company is heating up. The undercard may not have stood out the most, but the main event was great, the booking was good, and the undercard supported that main event, so I thought this show was a very good one. This period since Reborn Stage One is the most I've enjoyed the company since summer of 2003 (For whatever reason I became a huge mark for Special K and absolutely loved the period where they were racking up wins over and over again....and of course punk/raven). Right now Punk/Joe/Danielson are the ones Im loving, as I always do. Before that it was Styles/Low Ki/London. But I'm hoping to find an act (like Special K) that I didn't know before that I start becoming a huge fan of. Maybe that will be Gen Next (I know all the wrestlers, but not in this form) since they are making such an impact lately.

Sorry this post was so long, but I continue to love your podcast, and will be proud to join you Trevor in the Fauerstans. 

Thanks so much, I love that you're enjoying it! You're entering a really exciting period. Obviously there's peaks and valleys but from here through 2006 is really the golden age.

[hhhisthegame]

On 7/6/2021 at 2:02 AM, Hobbes said:

The funny thing is I agree with you about some ROH matches feeling just like stuff happening, but yet that ends up being the direction modern indie wrestling moves to. I'm not saying there still aren't great matches, but you watch recent years of say, PWG, and there's definitely less emphasis on telling stories in and out of the ring. So when I watch old ROH some matches I'll be like "Oh yeah, this is where the trend starts" and others I'll be thinking "There aren't enough matches like this today".

It's interesting, I was thinking that exact same thing when you were discussing the Evans/Danielson match. You mentioned how the wrestlers used to have different styles, whereas today most people are very well-rounded. It was said in a neutral way, but I was thinking how I miss having wrestlers with more distinctive differences, so a match like Danielson/Evans that told a different story than just an even back-and-forth you-do-a-move-then-I-do flow is sorely missed today. Personally I loved that match. I think that a lot watching older wrestling in general, having different styles and power differences to tell a story, or even a match where one guy is clearly better than the other and just looks impressive. I just think wrestling has sort of gone down the wrong path in some ways. 

In some cases it works....I found Lucha Underground amazing because they had a lot of crazy storytelling and in universe they were basically comic book characters, so the in-ring style worked. But generally I miss more story-based matches and having power guys be power guys, etc, and not everybody just doing dives and flips. 

I enjoy some of the style introduced in the early 2000s, I love the X-division and watching AJ Styles wrestle, and the athletic explosive matches, but I think overall they led wrestling down the wrong path in the end. ROH is just sort of a strange middle ground sometimes since it wasn't as exciting as the X-division work but didn't tell as much of a story as WWE. 

But I totally agree about Paul London, and its a shame a lot of people (like me until this last year) wouldn't know how good he was

[Hobbes]

ThROH The Years is in the depths of The Summer of Punk covering Escape From New York. It's the show that cursed Matt to be an ROH fan and features one of the hottest crowds in company history. Trevor loves a match that no one else on Earth even likes, Matt is able to exorcise a 16 year old demon and we bring you hot Rick Steiner rumors. All this and so much more on this episode!

https://redcircle.com/shows/throh-the-years/episodes/17488ee6-cf08-41b3-8dca-a2beb463c2a9

[Clayton Jones]

Got into the show last year and I think the ramped up schedule really helped you guys come into your own. Not that your older episodes I've listened to aren't good as well, but I think you settled into a chemistry in 2020 that makes it hard for me to miss an episode even if it's a show I skipped. As someone who was attending lots of shows in this era and buying many more DVDs I have to say of all the details you and Matt pick up on I especially appreciate the confusion and disappointment in Shelley's babyface turn that never fully turned. I felt the same exact way at the time, and while he was good in the Embassy, it felt very much like a "well, we don't know what else to do with him, so now... this" situation. This is a really foggy memory so take it lightly, but I do seem to recall something about Gabe saying he didn't make many (any?) Shelley shirts because nobody would want to buy them. I absolutely agree that he could have been one of ROH's top guys at the time but for whatever reason I don't think they ever saw him that way.

Keep up the great work!

[Hobbes]

Thanks so much! It honestly means a lot. Yeah I've heard people talk as if Gabe didn't like Shelley that much. He obviously liked him enough to book him but he never got that big run. Have no idea how much TNA/Japan/etc played into that.

[Hobbes]

ThROH The Years gets Joe Gagne to join in on the Summer of the Summer of Punk of fun as we cover Fate of an Angel. We spend a surprising length of time covering Matt Hardy from every angle, explaining why this was such a special and unique moment in his career and for wrestling in general. We also cover Punk vs. Gibson, Styles vs. Strong and the rest of the show. Trevor confesses to a childhood theft and Joe wants to scream "Tower Hacker Bomb" in a crowded building. All this and a looooot more.

https://redcircle.com/shows/throh-the-years/episodes/d6d53d9a-a687-4c3a-a448-d3518ddcf0ba

[Hobbes]

The summer does not stop and neither does ThROH The Years. This time we cover The Homecoming, a show featuring a less remembered 60 minute match, a big heel turn, children who are gangsters, LaRanged and so much more. You have the right to pretend, but not to miss this episode.

https://redcircle.com/shows/throh-the-years/episodes/ca770a96-6c29-4e51-8734-9e3f3e0cbbf8

[Hobbes]

ThROH The Years is at a huge stop on the Summer of the Summer of Punk as we cover Redemption! A massive four way world title match leads to one of the more emotional moments in ROH history. The fans turn on Matt Hardy! Someone joins Generation Next! We talk about hot buildings and wrestler's pay a lot! Get in, we have water.

https://redcircle.com/shows/throh-the-years/episodes/3dbd5057-856c-4fb8-b381-d6423b881bc4

[Hobbes]

Tonight, on a very special ThROH The Years, Matt and Trevor say farewell to CM Punk when they review Punk: The Final Chapter. We sum up Punk's entire run and cover his famous, emotional farewell, but we also cover the rest of the show, including Matt Hardy's goodbye, a bizarre undercard match that makes Trevor say mean things about a stranger, and a fantastic tag. The Summer of the Summer of Punk ends here.

https://redcircle.com/shows/throh-the-years/episodes/a838d953-5cbf-4357-8072-c36396c1cf6a

[Hobbes]

ThROH The Years starts its Post-Punk era with Night of the Grudges 2. It's maybe the worst ROH show of 2005, with some booking that goes horribly wrong and a bizarre Mick Foley promo. There is also one great match, a farewell to a longtime ROH act, and Matt and Trevor even find time for a mid-episode chat about their dads.

https://redcircle.com/shows/throh-the-years

[Hobbes]

ThROH The Years returns with the second coming of guest Steven Graham! We cover Dragon Gate Invasion, a show that simultaneously manages to feel important and tossed off. We talk extensively about a buffet of problematic content, dial up internet, and Trevor spends way too long talking about how things go on too long. Meet the new Kings of Whoa, here at ThROH The Years.

https://redcircle.com/shows/throh-the-years/episodes/52d4aff2-dfd4-4ca3-80d0-236ba94e8f5f

[Clayton Jones]

Great episode as always. I've been going through the back catalog lately and if you haven't revisited the beginning of your Wrath of the Racket episode since around when you recorded it, you and Matt really should. You guys are damn near clairvoyant in predicting the rise of what would become AEW and even the increasing prominence of GCW. I was highly impressed listening to it with 2021 hindsight.

[Hobbes]

6 hours ago, Clayton Jones said:

Great episode as always. I've been going through the back catalog lately and if you haven't revisited the beginning of your Wrath of the Racket episode since around when you recorded it, you and Matt really should. You guys are damn near clairvoyant in predicting the rise of what would become AEW and even the increasing prominence of GCW. I was highly impressed listening to it with 2021 hindsight.

I don't remember what we even recorded last month so I appreciate any reminder that we said anything right. WILL IT BE ENOUGH TO MAKE ME BRAVE LISTENING TO MYSELF THOUGH?

[Hobbes]

The new ThROH The Years is a big episode covering a big show, Glory By Honor IV. Two big feuds end, another begins, and some guy named Bryan Danielson comes back and wins the world title. Matt finds a fan that's really into Europe, Trevor worries about cougars and we all learn a lot about the American Dragon.

https://redcircle.com/shows/throh-the-years/episodes/c49e739e-71d1-4fbd-a7fd-9fbfe117897e

[Hobbes]

ThROH The Years turns 79 like a Biden and runs down the second annual Survival of the Fittest tournament. We cover an impressive debut, some underachieving long matches and find a way to blame everything on Joe Gagne.

https://redcircle.com/shows/throh-the-years/episodes/ffa15796-1f5a-439c-adcb-e7f815a9ce31

[Hobbes]

On this episode of ThROH The Years we talk about Joe vs. Kobashi. I don't need to say any more.

https://redcircle.com/shows/throh-the-years/episodes/b058e2b8-0b2a-4c05-badc-82ef80e2cb17

[Hobbes]

ThROH The Years is here to cover Unforgettable, a show with a Kenta Kobashi tag that some may have actually forgotten! But we have a ton else to remember, like James Gibson's ROH farewell, a variety of angles, and multiple ponderous anecdotes from Trevor's youth!

https://redcircle.com/shows/throh-the-years/episodes/2853218e-ef8b-4cfb-862c-2eb53048c993

[Zoo Enthusiast]

It's on my winter to-do list to do some catching up on watching/re-watching these ROH shows and the podcast.  I'm sure I won't be the only one feeling that fresh surge of ROH nostalgia and wanting to dig in on the old stuff.

[Hobbes]

I get that. I got a hit of it and I do a dang ROH podcast!

[Hobbes]

ThROH The Years enters the Bryan Danielson era of ROH with their review of Enter The Dragon and An Honorable Mention's Jeff Schwartz joins the party! We talk about a great main event, an underperforming undercard match, pooping next to a champion, indie promoter hecklers and a ton more. RIP Jimmy Rave

https://redcircle.com/shows/throh-the-years/episodes/bef7e862-9be5-4556-bc0a-9e4adc4665ad

[Hobbes]

In 2022 the rules of podcasting have not changed, which means ThROH The Years is back to cover Buffalo Stampede! Low Ki is at his goofiest! Lazer tag! A wild six man brawl! Corino vs. Danielson! Is this show better than a trip to Hawaii? That is for you to find out.

https://redcircle.com/shows/throh-the-years/episodes/42b4142b-21c9-4214-afb1-a9ee2126f44f

[Hobbes]

ThROH The Years brings back guest Joe Gagne to cover This Means War. A secretly important show in wrestling history that gives birth to the Bryan Danielson we know and love. Plus, Halloween candy, gassy fans, a worked shoot explored, a wonderful opener and so much more!

https://redcircle.com/shows/throh-the-years/episodes/64ae0778-85d2-4440-911d-33ba83c8ea31

[Hobbes]

ThROH The Years covers Showdown in Motown tonight, but we cover a lot of things. Gabe Sapolsky as a Hall of Famer, vegan chicken nuggets, pet peeves, Matt's nickname for YouTubers, flag thoughts. An episode good enough to make Trevor not self-deprecate for a minute!

https://redcircle.com/shows/throh-the-years/episodes/d33b079b-5819-4a1e-a908-2d816a73ca3c

[Hobbes]

On today's ThROH The Years we cover Vendetta, a super show with one of ROH's best matches of 2005. We also talk about towel-loving fans, how expectations change how we view matches, and a semi-conscious Bill Watts. Dr.Keith even does a run-in at the very end! Enjoy!

https://redcircle.com/shows/throh-the-years/episodes/97031c26-a0ad-4c8c-9569-2eca9a99f4c5

[Hobbes]

Five years. For five years ThROH The Years has wasted hours of your life and on this anniversary show we're not done yet. After copious thank you's we review A Night of Tribute, a show that took place in the wake of Eddie Guerrero's death. We cover a real hidden gem of a card with a great main event, a strange and disappointing semi, one of the greatest promos of Colt Cabana's career, and tons more. We also find time to tell our childhood school fence stories.

https://redcircle.com/shows/throh-the-years/episodes/76d593d5-a963-4640-9fdb-e5245f8f8635