Comic books and Manga Thread

[Ricky Jackson]

Hmmm, see, I liked the first 12 issues of The Spectre but wasn't blown away. A plot involving a serial killer murdering women with HIV/AIDS is as early-90s as Mandrake's art style (yeah, not a huge fan either). One of my favorite things about the DC universe are the supernatural characters, in addition to the Spectre, like Dr Fate, Demon, Phantom Stranger, Swamp Thing, etc, so I immediately perked up for the next story. I'm on issue 16, so we'll see how it goes. 

Yeah, that's true about Kirby. I want to give him the benefit of the doubt and say by the 70s he was just plain sick of having to tell a continued story with no ending, like he had been doing for years and years, and so everything ended up fizzling out as he lost interest. But it's probably more than that. There is also a sameness to everything from a layout perspective. Splash page, two-page spread, "chapter 1, chapter 2...", exclamation points everywhere, etc, from New Gods to Devil Dinosaur. I'll always love Kirby but he is definitely not above criticism

[ohtani's jacket]

I totally understand about the early 90s vibe. I just prefer street level, grim and gritty Spectre to all-powerful, philosophical Spectre. Give me some of those violent Fleisher stories over Spectre debating with angels and demons. 

I would probably get some flack for saying this at the other site, but I don't think Kirby was a great writer.  

[Graham Crackers]

I'm not exactly prepared with a dissertation to back this up (especially because the only place I've put these thoughts into words is my old twitter account) but I don't consider Kirby's form of comic book composition to be "writing."

First off, this has to do with my own rejection of applying labels of other media to cartooning. I know this doesn't bother other people the way it bothers me but I hate all "comics are literature" talk. Certainly elements of literature can be folded into the comics medium but I think literary analysis is lacking for the more abstract imagery and design heavy compositions of cartoonists like George Herriman, Yuichi Yokoyama, or Lale Westvind. Basically I'm trying to center the primary image making facets of the medium. There's actually a French word referring to the comic book-like nature of a work, similar to how we use literary or cinematic but I unfortunately can't remember it right now. It's on the the tip of my tongue!

I do believe there are writers in the world of comics but they're usually the people who write scenarios or dialogue but someone like Kirby wasn't writing detailed scripts. The composition occurred on the page and I think the commonly accepted label of writer is a bit reductive for what he was doing. I'd even apply this thought to writers like Harvey Kurtzman, who rarely did the artwork for their own stories but image composition was so important to his contribution that he was drawing detailed layouts with loose drawings for his collaborators to build upon.

I've also spent time on these thoughts because when compared to literature or even screen writing, comics have had maybe three writers whose work actually stacks up to the work in other media. Alan Moore, Hector Oesterheld, and.... maybe Kazuo Koike? Yet when lackluster writing is transformed into comics it can feel special because of the actual power of the cartooning. I really like John Wagner, Alan Grant, Chris Claremont, Anne Nocenti and Bob Haney but they needed their collaborators to make good work.

So for Kirby, the stories are a part of the package but it's the raw cartooning power, the forward momentum, and rough yet dynamic drawings that make his best work. I do view his 70s output as the best of his career but I also agree that much of it fizzles out before an ending. I disagree on OMAC though because 8 issues is IMO the perfect Kirby length, I don't feel like he ended up bored with the concept, and the abrupt ending is a hilarious inversion of the way most "cancelled too soon" DC series are tied up so they can be dusted off in the future. I think the justification for these series fizzling out would be that Kirby as a creative person was similar to Philip K. Dick in the 60s. Kirby wasn't fueled by amphetamines but there's a lot of similarities between their prolific output. I think most people would turn into hacks to create the incredible number of novels/comics they were making but they broke the mold. They both produced brilliant works as well as works that were just okay. Yet the okay works still had unique concepts that nobody else could have put to paper. That power could overcome the more clumsy aspects of their composition.

[ohtani's jacket]

You can call it storytelling if you like, or composition, but I don't see it as one of his strengths. He may be one of the greatest artists of all-time, but I wouldn't rank him as one of the better writer/artists. To be honest, I prefer his collaborations with Stan Lee to his solo work. He would have been better suited to doing graphic novels in the 70s. I personally see his 70s output as a series of grand failures. Brilliant ideas that fail to stick. 

There are times when comics have come close to literature, but personally I don't see the need for them to be accepted as such. I'm perfectly fine with appreciating comics for what they are. I have a higher opinion of comic book writing than you, however. 

[ohtani's jacket]

I finished Chew over the weekend. It took me a while to get used to the art, but once I did, I was in for a ride. What a weird and wonderful series. It was batshit insane but strangely moving. And always entertaining. Thanks for the memories, Chew!

[ohtani's jacket]

I finished Mark Waid's first run on The Flash. It was okay, but it was full of generic superhero stories. I don't see why it's considered a landmark run. I guess Mike Baron and William Messner-Loebs' runs may be considered weird to some folks, but to me, they were far more brilliant. There were some positives to Waid's run. He was good at multi-part storylines, and he did a lot of nice stuff with Wally and Linda. To his credit, his writing was solid enough that it didn't really matter when the art was subpar, but I don't get what the big deal was, other than the fact that it was long. Perhaps the appeal is that it was a solid superhero run in a decade not known for its solid superhero runs, but you'd think it was the equivalent to Peter David's Hulk run the way some people go on about it. I guess other folks are way more into the Speed Force thing than I was. I must really like Wally West, though, as I intend to keep going through the Morrison and Millar run and back to Waid, and maybe even Johns. 

[ohtani's jacket]

I finished Kings in Disguise. The Great Depression is a topic that hadn't been covered in comics very often. The author, Jim Vance, was a playwright, who was adamant that this story could only be told as a comic. This was right around the time when all those articles began to appear about how comics weren't just for kids anymore, and you can feel that type of energy and enthusiasm in the book as the creators attempt to unlock the potential of comics as a storytelling medium. Kings in Disguise wasn't as influential as Maus, but it was part of the same movement that led to the rise of graphic novels, and inspired cartoonists to envision stories in different genres, which honestly speaking, is something that needed to happen if comics were going to continue to develop as an artform. I'm not sure why the series isn't as well known as other books from the era. It didn't sell particularly well, but it was critically acclaimed and drew high praise from the likes of Alan Moore, Wil Eisner, Harvey Kurtzman and Art Spiegelman. I'd never heard of it until I started this thread. Even as a kid, I was aware of the graphic novel books in my local comic store -- the Sandman books, Cerebus, Maus, Love and Rockets, etc. -- but I don't recall ever seeing Kings in Disguise. At first, I thought it might be because the art isn't quite as strong as some of those books. In fact, it's quite of striking when the early issues have covers done by some of the more popular independent artists of the day. However, the art grew on me when I read a letter from Mike Baron that pointed out the EC comics influence in the panel layout. Burr isn't as good as the EC guys, who were master cartoonists, but the EC style grid is a nice fit for the story and suits the tone of a period piece. I believe Vance and Burr published a sequel to the story decades later.

The American had a lot of potential as an ongoing series, and then it ended abruptly, mid-storyline, which was the fate of a lot of intriguing indies during the boom and bust cycle. I'm not sure if the later mini-series picks up where the ongoing series left off, but after reading a handful of cancelled Eisner nominee/winners, I have a new found respect for creators who managed to somehow complete their series. 

Comics should be fun, and I had a blast reading Charles Burns' Hard-Boiled Defective Stories, Batman Adventures: Mad Love, and the short-lived, but delightful, Tantalizing Tales. Hard-Boiled Defective Stories was an attempt to cash in on the success of Maus by publishing Burns' short stories as a graphic album and sticking them in book stores. Unfortunately, for the other creators, Maus was the only book that sold, but the mix of pro-wrestling and weird pulp fiction/film noir stories was right up my alley. Mad Love was by far the best of the Batman related Eisner nominees I read. The other books were good, but Mad Love was a joy, and surprisingly dark at times. I absolutely adore Jim Woodring's Frank stories, but I also loved the issue of Tantalizing Tales that had Gerald Jablonski's Farmer Ned strips. Those were brilliant.

Personally, I thought Bratpack was Rick Veitch's strongest work up until that point, even if it was a spiteful attack on DC and kind of nasty in that respect, but the ending was a massive letdown. He didn't stick the landing whatsoever. Fantastic art, though. 

 

[ohtani's jacket]

Xenozoic Tales is a terrific series that ends mid-story arc with issue 14. Interestingly, the issues were released so far apart that you get a clear sense of the growth and development of Mark Schultz as an artist from '86 through to '96. He's released other projects since then, which I'll be sure to check out at some stage. Every once and a while, there's a tease that he'll finish the arc from issue 14 but nothing's ever come of it. It joins the pile with other great unfinished series like Tyrant and Vagabond. After the 80s black and white boom ended, Shultz only released one or two issues per year, but even at that slow pace, the book was constantly among the Eisner nominations and Shultz was highly regarded in the industry. That reputation has faded over time, but if you're interested in what the early 90s comic book landscape looked like, Xenozoic Tales was a release, along with From Hell and several others, that people eagerly anticipated. It's not entirely original, as a lot of people were doing riffs on similar ideas, but if you like dystopian sci-fi, it's a neat series. 

[Shrike02]

Haven't thought of Xenozoic for a long time but it was a must-buy for me back in the day. I was irked it never got a proper ending.

[Graham Crackers]

Hell yes, I love Gerald Jablonski. I cherish my copy of Empty Skull which is like a Frances E. Dec letter as a comic book. There's something special about how each page makes you pause and remember your comics vocabulary.

I've been reading the Dick Moores era of Gasoline Alley. I'm pretty well familiar with the Frank King era of that strip, which is a showcase for the most delicate and understated drawings from a member of that classic Chicago school of cartooning. I was hesitant to explore past King, as the number of non-superhero features to attain greatness after their original creator leaves is quite low (and successes in superheroes might be over emphasized). Well, I got one of the IDW collections of the Moores era and I was really impressed. Every object is solid, with a strong sense of weight. The lettering is beautiful and there's a clear track through the rather talking head heavy dailies. The stakes feel very low, even when the stories may call for more peril, but this is Gasoline Alley so I'm expecting comfort food.

[ohtani's jacket]

I made it to issue #50 of my re-read of Nexus. I don't know if I'd call Mike Baron the best plotter in terms of story development, but it was impressive for any indie title in the 80s to reach 50 issues (if you, in fact, consider First Comics an indie publisher.) Paul Smith may be the best guest penciller of all-time. He's so good that he can replace Steve Rude on pencils and the quality doesn't drop a smidge... Well, that is until Rude comes back and you remember how freaking amazing Steve Rude is. 

Elfquest had almost lost me with the long and drawn out Kings of the Broken Wheel, but the final two issues of that limited series were really good, and then the decision to go with color for Hidden Years was a revelation. The first four issues of that series contain some of Pini's most beautiful artwork, as well as some wonderful, self-contained stories. Unfortunately, this is the era where Elfquest splintered into separate titles, and Pini hands the creative duties to other people. That's a shame as I kind of like her short stories better than her drawn out epics.

I finished reading First Comics' reprinting of Lone Wolf and Cub, which ended 45 issues into a projected 110 issue run. There was no fanfare or goodbye, but it's weird, even though it was a reprint of a comic from the 70s, it felt like the end of an era as the title was synonymous with 80s independent publishing and it truly felt lie that era was over by '91. At some point, I will have to pick up the rest of the series, but it's not a series that you necessarily have to finish to appreciate. 

I absolutely loved Sock Monkey! That is my kind of comic. So charming and inventive. Almost as good as Frank. 

[Shrike02]

Lone Wolf and Cub has in my opinion a nearly perfect ending so it's well worth it to read the series to its end.

[ohtani's jacket]

I read the original Marshal Law limited series last month. It kind of fell apart in the final two issues, but in the wake of Kevin O'Neill's passing, I'd rather emphasize the great artwork. I really liked the coloring too. I'm mostly used to reading O'Neil's work in black and white. The color made his art pop on Marshal Law. RIP, Kev. Torquemada is still one of my all-time favorite villains. 

[ohtani's jacket]

Crime and Punishment: Marshal Law Takes Manhattan is a 48 page one-shot that offers us Patty Mills' irreverent take on some of the most famous Marvel superheroes. Originally, Mills wanted to use the actual characters, but Marvel wouldn't let him. I think I prefer it that way as it lets O'Neill cut loose with some unhinged versions of Marvel's heroes. The story is standard "superheroes are bad" fare with a generous helping of bloods and guts. O'Neill's artwork is every bit as demented as you'd hope, and Mills provides some zingers, especially if you're a longtime fan of the Marvel supes. 

[ohtani's jacket]

I may have been too hard on The Authority. I'm still not fond of late 90s superhero comics, but it's better than I gave it credit for. Hitch's art is beautiful even if it is at the forefront of the shift towards big panels and sparse dialogue. 

[Reel]

I recently finished Dick Foreman's Black Orchid run, I think the Gaiman/McKean run of Black Orchid might be my favorite Gaiman comic series, so I took the dive, and I think the Foreman run was really underrated.  

Foreman never got another series, which means it was probably a dud, but I think the Black Orchid comics are really interesting and creatively done. It intersects with Swamp Thing at some point, and you can tell there's a lot of influence there, and obviously there was some idea to build out that world, and I think that maybe in an effort to be like Swamp Thing it ended up being too similar. That being said, It starts well, ends well, meanders a bit in the middle, but was otherwise very enjoyable. 

[ohtani's jacket]

I finished Charles Burns’ Black Hole, which was published over a lengthy period of time from 1995 to 2005, first by Kitchen Sink Press, and then when they went out of business, picked up by Fantagraphics. Darker in tone than a lot of Burns’ early work, it retains the elements of surrealism you’d expect from Burns’ work but without the quirky, offbeat humour. Set in the 70s, it tells the story of a group of teenagers who catch a mysterious STD that causes strange mutations. It’s basically a metaphor for adolescence, sexual awakening, and coming of age, and largely focused on atmospherics over plot. The most striking feature of the book is the black and white art. Burns won the Harvey Award for Best Inker several times during the book’s publication, which is impressive given the black and white work of other artists during the time frame. The story isn’t as weird as it may seem at a glance, and the topic isn’t as weighty as a lot of other graphic novels at the time, but as a feat of cartooning, it rates as a seminal work among 80s and 90s cartoonists. Definitely worth a read for people who enjoy 90s comics as much as Ido. Burns, like many of his contemporaries, shifted to graphic novels after Black Hole was completed, and thus it represents one of the last floppy series of perhaps my favorite era of alternative comics.

Paul Pope's Batman: Year 100 is okay. I prefer the projects Pope did for Vertigo (Heavy Liquid and 100%), and I actually kind of like the Batman stories he did in his issue of Solo more. Year 100 was all right as far as alternative cartoonist doing a mainstream superhero goes, but it didn't really add much to the Batman experience. Personally, I'm not that interested in seeing Batman in the future. I prefer modern reworkings of old Golden Age stories to future, Elseworlds stories. Pope draws a very distinctive Batman, though. He really plays up the bat element. He even has Batman use fake teeth to make himself look like more of a creature. I can understand why the series has its fans, but I'm far more interested in hunting down THB. 

I haven't read enough from this century to tell whether Asterios Polyp is the best work that's been produced thus far, but it's a major feat in cartooning. I think I may have mentioned that I was disappointed when David Mazzucchelli ditched penciling mainstream superhero comics to become an alternative cartoonist, largely because the change in style was so drastic, but it led a masterpiece. Mazzucchelli is one of the few artists who can claim to have created important works at both ends of the spectrum.

[ohtani's jacket]

I also finished X-Statix. The series never really lived up to that incredible first issue of X-Force, but it was still a lot of fun and a fairly daring thing for Marvel to publish. The best thing about it was that it allowed Mike Allred to play around with the Marvel characters. The series had a Giffen/DeMatteis feel to it at times, which I liked, but it was a bit too "on the nose" with its satire at times. That, and the fact that I don't really give a crap about celebrity culture, so it didn't really wow me in that respect. But mostly it was really hard to top that debut issue.   

[Shrike02]

On 12/5/2022 at 4:35 PM, ohtani's jacket said:

I also finished X-Statix. The series never really lived up to that incredible first issue of X-Force, but it was still a lot of fun and a fairly daring thing for Marvel to publish. The best thing about it was that it allowed Mike Allred to play around with the Marvel characters. The series had a Giffen/DeMatteis feel to it at times, which I liked, but it was a bit too "on the nose" with its satire at times. That, and the fact that I don't really give a crap about celebrity culture, so it didn't really wow me in that respect. But mostly it was really hard to top that debut issue.   

Interesting. I'm not sure I ever read X-Statix. Probably never made it to my pull list because I've really never been a fan of Giffen's work.

[ohtani's jacket]

It's basically a comedy series, which was pretty radical for an X-book. It's especially weird when you consider that X-Force, the big early 90s spin-off, turned into a parody book. 

[Ricky Jackson]

I really liked the initial run when the book was still X-Force. Once it became X-Statix I thought it slowly lost its appeal. The reboot from the last few years with the original creative team-The X-Cellent-is good although kinda stuck in first or second gear right now

[Shrike02]

A current series I quite like so far is Strange - Clea as Sorcerer Supreme! - and the Cantwell Namor book promises to be lots of fun.

[Reel]

I got the first issue of the Namor book and liked it, and have the new Dr. Strange and haven't gotten to it yet, but it seems great.

Also, Ram V's run on Carnage has been very good. 

[ohtani's jacket]

I'm almost two years in Mike Baron's Punisher run and it's just so... episodic. There's no overarching storyline. Nothing of consequence seems to happen. Even Microchip's kid dying didn't have any long term ramifications. And for a title that was presumably hot at the time, they didn't seem to give two craps about who was drawing it, handing out assignments to young talent like Whilce Portacio and Erik Larsen. I'll tell you one other thing: Jim Shooter may have been the guy who created the mandate about characters re-introducing themselves to the reader each issue, but Tom DeFalco continued to fly the banner high. It amuses me at times the parts of the story where Baron slots it in. I do kind of dig reading a comic from 1989, though, which was my first full year of reading comics. And I laughed at the issue where the Punisher goes to Australia and Baron tries to paint King's Cross as the most deadly place on earth. 

[ohtani's jacket]

I reached the end of the line for Ms. Tree, IMO one of the best characters of the 1980s and one of the best female characters in the history of comics. I'll admit that I preferred the stories where she fought the Muerta family more than the stories taken from the lastest issue of Newsweek magazine, but it was a tremendous run right up until the end. I'm feeling a bit wistful wondering what happened to the characters in their lives after the final special.