PK's Wrestlemania thread

[Guest KingPK]

Through the magic of Netflix, all the discs on the Wrestlemania Anthology DVD set that came out two years ago are available individually, so I've been checking out shows that A) I've never seen in full before or Haven't seen in a while to see if they still hold up.

 

WM X - This would fall into the first category. Yes, it has two great matches. Yes, it may be one of the most memorable WMs of all time because of those two matches. That doesn't excuse the fact that the rest of the show is pretty dreadful. I ended up FFing through pretty much everything aside from the opener and ladder match. Crush/Savage could have been something if it was five years later when the WWF loved matches that were brawls all over the building, but here we get a sanitized version that ended Savage's WM career on a down note. The title matches, with a Yokozuna that had to be pushing 600 by then, were MUCH too long and mostly consisted of Yoko appying a lazy "nerve hold" for long stretches. The main event bugged me because it was basically Bret not doing anything of note and getting lucky at the end. Nothing else on the card warrants mentioning here.

 

WM XIV - A good show, but it certainly showed how guys got over MUCH more on personality and promos than any actual ring ability in the Attitude Era. If Taka/Aguila happened today, even though they seemed to be moving at half speed between all the high spots, they would certainly have gotten SOME reaction from the crowd. Here, the Boston crowd is apathetic at best, though they drag some of them kicking and screaming into it by the end. I'd forgotten how HUGE Sable was back then as she's the one that finally gets the crowd going. The mixed tag match is actually pretty decent. Owen/HHH is another good match. Rock/Shamrock was an absolute copout with Shamrock "snapping" and getting the decision reversed as a result (booking that made little sense to me as it just makes Ken look like an idiot). 'Taker/Kane was just punch punch punch, though 'Taker's swandive through the announce table was a cool spot. Everything that needs to be said about the main event has been said; how Michaels earned major points for working through the back injury and how Austin's win elevated him to become the megastar that he became over the next few years.

 

I've got WM 8 coming soon, which is the first WM I ever ordered. I've always thought it was one of the better WMs of all time with Hart/Piper, Savage/Flair, a good opener with Michaels and Tito Santana, among other matches. We'll see if it holds up.

[Resident Evil]

Just so you know, Savage vs Crush was cut short. It was supposed to go longer.

[Loss]

WM X isn't really the best top-to-bottom show, but the booking throughout is largely pretty good, the bad stuff didn't go on for too long (even Luger/Yoko, which was pretty bad, at least made sense going longer in the context of the show since it was a title match) and the two top matches still hold up reasonably well today. I tend to think Bret Hart and Yokozuna worked really well together. This was probably their worst match together, but it still had its moments.

 

WM XIV doesn't really do much for me, probably because at the time I still hadn't really forgiven the company for ditching Bret Hart. That said, Shawn Michaels deserves all the credit in the world for throwing his back out halfway through the main event and still finishing the match, in the same way it's pretty obvious why his critics have a problem with him -- with him laying there chewing gum after Tyson was supposed to have KO'd him. Few are better at sandbagging an angle than HBK.

[Guest KingPK]

I disagree about the booking. You'd think that after chasing Yoko for so long Luger would finally get the win and go against Bret in the main since they never really hooked up before and, though it wouldn't be a classic, it certainly would have been better than what we got. Luger could have done the Handshake of Respect at the end and still had the celebration like they did. I guess Bret avenging his IX loss DOES make sense, but that doesn't mean that I would have preferred it go another way.

 

VIII - After the Flair/Savage title match, this show falls off a cliff. Before that though, this is a damn fun WM. It starts with a HBK/Tito Santana match that doesn't really go anywhere and is definitely disappointing, but it's not a bad match. There are a TON of great promos in this show, including Roddy Piper heeling it up before the IC title match ("Of course, he [bret] wasn't potty trained until he was seven") and basically setting the story of the match; Piper really wants to keep his title and Bret really wants it back. It's a really good back and forth match with an intensity that comes through clearly.

 

Bobby Heenan is ON FIRE on commentary with Gorilla (this was their first WM together, IIRC). Hell, even RAY COMBS gets some good lines in as guest ring announcer for the 8-man tag. ("We asked our survey to choose one word to describe the Nasty Boys' success in their career. The top answer? 'Lucky'.")

 

But like I said, after Flair/Savage (which definitely had a lot of raw emotion behind it; if this angle ran today, FLAIR would probably be the face), the crowd is a bit burned out and the last four matches don't help (what was the point of that one minute Skinner/Owen match before the main anyway?). Hogan's "last match" against Sid was definite FF material until the ending when the Warrior returns, which was shocking as hell at the time.

 

As an aside, I never realized how much Rick Martel's theme as "The Model" sounds like it was ripped from some softcore porn soundtrack until today.

[Resident Evil]

 

WM XIV doesn't really do much for me, probably because at the time I still hadn't really forgiven the company for ditching Bret Hart. That said, Shawn Michaels deserves all the credit in the world for throwing his back out halfway through the main event and still finishing the match, in the same way it's pretty obvious why his critics have a problem with him -- with him laying there chewing gum after Tyson was supposed to have KO'd him. Few are better at sandbagging an angle than HBK.

 

 

This is the one time where I really liked what Michaels did even if it wasn't professional. Tyson (and I know it's not his fault here) KOing Michaels was just embarassing and a detriment to wrestling.

[Al]

 

 

WM XIV doesn't really do much for me, probably because at the time I still hadn't really forgiven the company for ditching Bret Hart. That said, Shawn Michaels deserves all the credit in the world for throwing his back out halfway through the main event and still finishing the match, in the same way it's pretty obvious why his critics have a problem with him -- with him laying there chewing gum after Tyson was supposed to have KO'd him. Few are better at sandbagging an angle than HBK.

 

 

This is the one time where I really liked what Michaels did even if it wasn't professional. Tyson (and I know it's not his fault here) KOing Michaels was just embarassing and a detriment to wrestling.

 

How so? The punch looked reasonably good, and Tyson's the kind of guy with enough credibility that he can knock someone out with one punch and it is believable. It's not like they brought in some "B" level celebrity. We're talking about the former heavyweight boxing champion.

[Resident Evil]

Because people always thought back than that wrestling was so fake and any boxer can annihilate a wrestler in a real fight. Wrestling just furthers that perception here by having their champion last seconds with boxing's biggest name on their biggest PPV of the year. That's certainly going to make all the wrestling fans happy. That's certainly going to help wrestling in the public eye. The WWF themselves is telling us to go watch boxing instead because we are a complete joke. They don't even try to make one of their top stars credible. It's a slap in the face to all the fans out there.

[Guest KingPK]

You are making too much of this. Besides, with his condition at the time, I'm sure Shawn was only too happy to lay flat on his back.

 

Anyway, I watched 8 again today and I forgot to mention the awesome promos from Savage and Flair, Heenan and Perfect after the title match which told us that this program wasn't over by a longshot. I forget, when did Flair regain the title in Hershey, Pennsylvania? Was it before Summerslam?

 

If the show ended after Savage/Flair, VIII would definitely be in my top 5 WMs (maybe even top 3), but it is stunning how the crowd and even Heenan and Gorilla kind of lose steam in the end.

[Al]

Because people always thought back than that wrestling was so fake and any boxer can annihilate a wrestler in a real fight. Wrestling just furthers that perception here by having their champion last seconds with boxing's biggest name on their biggest PPV of the year. That's certainly going to make all the wrestling fans happy. That's certainly going to help wrestling in the public eye. The WWF themselves is telling us to go watch boxing instead because we are a complete joke. They don't even try to make one of their top stars credible. It's a slap in the face to all the fans out there.

 

I don't think most wrestling fans really give a second thought to how wrestlers are perceived as legitimate combatants. If it were really a factor, we'd see a big spike in heavyweight boxing and drop in WWE after Wrestlemania XIV. Obviously that did not happen, as WWE enjoyed their greatest business boom following that show. Wrestling has a long history of involving other athletes/celebrities on their shows. Muhammad Ali, Andy Kaufmann, "Refrigerator" Perry, Lawrence Taylor, etc. It does not hurt business because wrestling fans largely know it is staged entertainment. (The difference between "smart" and casual fans is that the casual fans is unaware of the hows and whys of working a match).

[Guest KingPK]

Without the attention Tyson gave them in the mainstream for that event, you could say that the wrestling boom of the late 90's may not have been as big as it was. That punch was just the heel getting his final comeuppance.

[Resident Evil]

 

Because people always thought back than that wrestling was so fake and any boxer can annihilate a wrestler in a real fight. Wrestling just furthers that perception here by having their champion last seconds with boxing's biggest name on their biggest PPV of the year. That's certainly going to make all the wrestling fans happy. That's certainly going to help wrestling in the public eye. The WWF themselves is telling us to go watch boxing instead because we are a complete joke. They don't even try to make one of their top stars credible. It's a slap in the face to all the fans out there.

 

I don't think most wrestling fans really give a second thought to how wrestlers are perceived as legitimate combatants. If it were really a factor, we'd see a big spike in heavyweight boxing and drop in WWE after Wrestlemania XIV. Obviously that did not happen, as WWE enjoyed their greatest business boom following that show. Wrestling has a long history of involving other athletes/celebrities on their shows. Muhammad Ali, Andy Kaufmann, "Refrigerator" Perry, Lawrence Taylor, etc. It does not hurt business because wrestling fans largely know it is staged entertainment. (The difference between "smart" and casual fans is that the casual fans is unaware of the hows and whys of working a match).

 

Boxing would not see a surge from wrestling fas because it doesn't have that excitement factor for a lot of people. Wrestling fans are fans for a reason. They have already chosen wrestling (or maybe they like both) They like what they see and they're not going to abandon it. As you say, most fans know not everything's on the level but they're still there. Everyone knows about boxing already and have probably watched it at least once in their lives. If they didn't choose boxing than -- they're not going to choose boxing now even if boxing's champ embarases their world champ.

 

Reality or not, it hurts when you see someone come from an outside world and destroy someone in your world. Even in complete fiction. What would happen if Vegeta or Samurai Jack for example got annihilated by a Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtle? etc.... Back to reality again -- what would happen if Wayne Gretzky got his butt handed to him in hockey by Larry Bird? Not the exact same situation but I think I'm getting my point across here. Your world takes a beating and it's harder to get behind that world if that happens.

 

Now let's say for example instead of Michaels going down to Tyson, Michaels eliminated him (or we could have Austin eliminate him which I think would've been great) by taking him out in a staged skirmish or whatever. Even if your world is not 100% real, that is going to make you feel good about your watching. The charactors in your world are now stronger, more believable and easy to get behind. So yes, I would say over the long run that Lawrence Taylor, Chuck Norrus and Tyson hurt business IN COMPARISON to what could've happened/been achieved with business if they helped make the wrestling business look stronger.

[Resident Evil]

Without the attention Tyson gave them in the mainstream for that event, you could say that the wrestling boom of the late 90's may not have been as big as it was. That punch was just the heel getting his final comeuppance.

 

 

You can't just say that punch was just the heel getting his final comeuppance. There are other results that come from it.

 

Ranting here.

 

Although I don't think that Michaels is the best heel ever and in some ways was a detriment to the business during his heel run I do think that for certain portions of the audience he was as good as you can get as a heel. He is my personal best heel ever. In saying this, I don't think that for me (definitely not for me) and those portions of the audience that they really enjoyed seeing Tyson destroy Michaels. Like in the sense of, "Yeah, Michaels finally got what was coming to him. Thank you so much Tyson."

The idea of people who hate each other in one world but will team up if forced to so they can defend against an outside force is a well documented one. It's because of the attachment that grows between them. The same concept of thinking applies here. Even with the fans who despise Michaels -- their is still an attachment there. There is respect and that underlying feeling of positive emotion for him especially if the viewer has seen him throughout the years. He is part of their world. Outsiders are not welcome and that's what Tyson is. And than we have all the people who were fans of Michaels as well. I don't see how on any level this is the good feeling of the heel getting his final comeuppance which I guess what was supposed to happen(maybe Vince just hates wrestling sometimes)????. I mostly only see a sinking feeling in people's stomachs when they see this. Bad business as well compared to what could've been.

 

I'm ranting.

[Loss]

I remember some people getting upset about WCW's booking when Johnny B. Badd beat Arn Anderson in that Boxer Versus Wrestler match back at the first Uncensored, because they thought it made wrestling look bad. Even PWI did an article about it at the time.

[sek69]

All I know is that after the famous pull apart on RAW (TYSON AND AUSTIN! TYSON AND AUSTIN!), they did a segment on the local news which I've never seen before or since in my 20+ years of watching wrestling.

 

Say what you will, but Tyson was that one time they got the maximum mainstream pub they hoped to get from every celebrity who gets involved in wrestling.

[kjh]

Yeah, WWE lucked into using Tyson at the perfect time, as he was all over the news just before that angle happened due to his acrimonious split with Don King. Most of the articles that talked about the split also mentioned briefly his upcoming appearance at Wrestlemania. The tone was sometimes derogatory and mocking, but you can't have everything.

[sek69]

So who all is actually watching this year's show?

[Al]

I ordered it. First live PPV event I ordered since Rumble '99 actually. Having digital cable after years without a cable box is the main reason for the PPV hiatus.