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Fit Finlay Vs Terry Funk would have been a WCW Vs British Wrestling childhood dream match of mine in 1989 when I was 15 and they were both red hot heels on either side of the Atlantic. Neither were doing the best technical work of their careers - 1989 Funk was all about branding irons, plastic bags and piledrivers onto tables, 1989 Finlay was at the height of his Bully run. Both had comeuppances in 1989- Funk said I Quit to Flair, Finlay lost the British Heavy Middleweight title to his one time whipping boy Danny Collins (a payoff sadly too late for TV). They ever looked facially similar back then with their long dark hair and goatees.  So in 1996 shortly after Finlay's abortive first WCW run which might have seen him (and Haystacks) back on ITV had not WCW been lured away by Superchannel at the end of 1995, they finally meet up.

The clip starts with a Piper's Pit type segment with an old Blassie-esque guy guy interviewing Funk about the Schumann bout. Funk calls out Finlay and the two have to be held apart. So, cut, to some time later and the match for who is Craziest Wrestler. Finlay is the sympathetic heel here. Funk is carrying the flaming torch for his branding iron.  Sadly the tape is severely knacky.but we shall struggle through. They start with collar and elbow but are soon fighting at ringside and ignoring the bell. The MC is constantly blowing a fuse barking orders on the referee's behalf.

Suddenly in round 2 they are in the ring making pinfall attempts. Finlay is no respecter of the bell any more than Funk and gets some stomps in between rounds 2 and 3. In round 3 Funk piledrives Finlay ringside (in silhouette)  Yet another round break is ignored.  Round 4 Funk DDTs Finlay but he twice kicks out and again after a piledriver. Funk's sidekick in these matches Klaus Kauroff threatens to join in. The two men disappear deep into the crowd and have to be dragged back by referee Didier Gapp. They are soon back outside. Finlay gets a knockout win after crawling back in during a double countout. Funk throws a chair in the ring before disappearing off. So that's Finlay the winner and still CWA Intercontinental Champion. Shortly afterwards, he headed back to WCW.

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8 hours ago, ohtani's jacket said:

Bull Power vs. Rambo 'Wien, Summer '87)

Vader had his ears and head taped here and was selling some sort of prior injury. Rambo targeted his ears throughout and kept Vader off his game. The clip was short and the finish was unclear, but interesting to see some sort of narrative going on with the ears. 

Mick McManus: "NO!!! NOT THE EARS!!!! AGGHHH!!!!"

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Found a Germany playlist on Alessio's channel:

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLJ811z1HQb3mQ_kphzXIUPt2Q-B_IDhsj

 

Most of it's from the 40s/50s but there are a couple off 1970s clips. Here is 1971 - Leif Rasmussen, a sort of Scandinavian version of Rene Lasartesse, takes on a young dark haired Hansi Rooks (some eight years before a certain glam metal band from Finland formed! ) It's from TV but don't get excited, it's one of the usual "haha let's have a good sneery laugh at the high spots and the screaming marks too" type features you get on TV and cinema newsreels 

 

Plus some 1975 footage featuring wrestler/judoka Anton Geesink.

 

 

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On 9/29/2024 at 4:24 PM, David Mantell said:

Here is 1971 - Leif Rasmussen, a sort of Scandinavian version of Rene Lasartesse, takes on a young dark haired Hansi Rooks (some eight years before a certain glam metal band from Finland formed! ) It's from TV but don't get excited, it's one of the usual "haha let's have a good sneery laugh at the high spots and the screaming marks too" type features you get on TV and cinema newsreels 

One thing really noticeable is there is clearly continuity between that and the VDB circa 1983.  Even the ring looks similar 12 years apart.

 

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This takes a couple of minutes to get going but when it does, you know about it!  Nogami is the heel here, viciously attacking Tony a lot on the mat, which seems unnecessary as the technical bits of the bout are really fantastic with Nogami having really mastered a lot of good escapes/ reversals/ counters. Doesn't even make sense culturally (Austria and Japan were both fellow Axis powers in WW2). Crowd chant "Tony, Tony" heartily in strong Teutonic accents.

Nogami was a blue-eye in Britain a couple of years later as the Orient Express but here he's a thug heel similar to Michiyoshi Ohara as Fuji Yamaha (as opposed to Fuji Yamada) or Satoshi Kojima as Japanese Mean Machine for All Star in 1995.  Worth watching but  I reckon these two are capable of better. I want a clean match. &£!?*#$@ to all that "Oh there HAS to be a heel" business. There is so much good technical work these two could do rather than work the crowd.

 

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Like the Scrubber Daly Vs Kid McCoy bout from New Catch I just posted to the French thread, this is a British bout transplanted to the Continent. Even referee MalmMason was British.  And before anyone points out that the Mongolian Mauler was an American posing as a Mongolian, I would point out he was based in Britain and mostly working for All Star at the time.  (Plus I think I recognise the venue from the German section of Robbie Brookside's Video Diary)

Like Daly Vs McCoy it's a bit of a squash match. Cullen at this point held Rocco's old World Heavy Middleweight title and would continue to do so until his 2002 retirement. He was also a bit of a heel back home in Blighty by this point but that counted for naught against the hated Mauler.  Cullen gets in some missile dropkicks and tries to take down Mauler with a headscissors and gets thrown off but otherwise it's the bigger man all the way until at the end when someone in an identical Scottish Thistle leotard - I think it's Ian McGregor, himself a heel back home by this point (the following year he and Drew McDonald would form The Wild Jocks and feud with Big Daddy) - jumps off the top rope onto Mauler getting Cullen DQ'd. Mal has no time for their protests and neither do I but the two Scots get a moral victory out of it and the crowd seem happy with that.

 

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Three Brits and an honorary British Wrestler makes four. Heaps of technical skill in this one. I was really hopeful. What could go wrong? Answer: a comedy referee.

Didier "Didi" Gapp, who may be a familiar face to you from New Catch and I think one or two of the last Old Catch matches on FR3, was something of a cult figure to French and to some extent CWA fans who would chant Didi, Didi for him. (This was unusual for France where from the late 70s onwards except for Sheriff Roger Delaporte, referees were generally assumed to be dubious quasi Dangerous Danny Davis types.). Here, Gapp plays the role of a miserable "humourless" official, always tooting on his whistle and looking for ways to reprimand the boys until in the end they just get fed up and start winding him up.

This is a pity because when they do get down to business there is some really fantastic technical action particularly from Hart and Wright (now that would have been one heck of a World Mid Heavyweight Championship match!) Tony and Dave stick together and oOwen and Steve likewise, like a mixed gender tag match. StClair and Taylor do the heavyweight version of fast technical action and try not to allow their size to get in to way of some fine folding press attempts.

Unfortunately Didi runs around being the pesky jumped up petty official, even when there is good action going on. I guess he was more used to being the centre of attention back home in France. Eventually the four wrestlers get bored and start manhandling Gapp, doing the old The Ref Gets Pinned/Scores Pin  gag (a fave of husband and wife ref and wrestler Brian Dixon and Mitzi Mueller) who finally flips out and disqualifies everybody.

To be fair the four boys seem to have had fun conducting the audience in the extended singalong (Owen especially seems to get a certain dumb core amusement from this.) If only the referee in this was someone like Jeff Kaye, this could have been The Royals versus the Saints 19 years on (spot the common denominator, Tony.). As it is, one can look at the good bits and ponder what might have been.

 

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One time archenemies Marty Jones and Fit Finlay team up as heels defending the CWA World Tag Team Championship they won from Mike and Tony DtClair two  months earlier.  

"Franzi" and Mile are the scientific good guys doing lots plenty of British style reversals/counters.  Finlay is his late 80s bully self. Jones mixes his usual skill in with a lot of dirty wrestling eg stomping. It's actually the sort of action packed bout Jones and Finlay would have or the Finlay/Murphy Riot Squad tag team would have.

Schumann scores the opening fall with a victory roll on Jones. During the break Jones offers Zrno his hand but is refused. Jones then takes a swig of water and sloshes the rest over Zrno and the crowd are enraged - one ladies SCREAMING abuse at Jones in German. Schumann eventually handles both bad Brits and he and Zrno have some Southern US style fast four way action with Finlay and Jones. Schumann gets a cover on Finlay but Jones stomps it and Finlay slams Schumann and pins him for the equaliser.  Schumann regains the upper hand and gets Finlay with a sliding dropkick. He tries for another but Finlay pulls him out to ringside (the other side from the camera sadly) and they brawl at ringside.  Finlay tosses a bloody Schumann into Jones who punishes him further before tagging Finlay who continues the punishment until Schumann reverses a tombstone piledriver attempt and goes for a pin. Jones puls him off, hits the ropes, goes for a flying tackle but misses and hits Finlay and they both go over the top rope. The referee starts a triple knockout count., Schumann is up at 8 but the bad guys stay down at ringside for the 10 count and are knocked out making Mile Zrno and Franz Schumann the winners and new champion in a Knockout.  The crowd are DELIGHTED at this Knockout finish to give their heroes the titles. It is quite the celebration and  may I say @ohtani's jacket there is no sense of Jones or Finlay being protected. We see no more of them in the video after the knockout, presumably the cleaners picked them up off the floor after the show.

Meanwhile back in Britain Marty would still be a blue-eye and kayfabe enemies with Finlay until 1992 when they were forced to team in Croydon.  To their "surprise" they really worked as a heel team and Jones went bad, changing from dignified blue eye to bragging heel, and would remain such until May 2000 when Jones got into a feud with Kendo Nagasaki over the Wrestler of the Millennium trophy.

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That's another awful finish. It's hard to believe the titles could change hands on a spot like that. It's not even a proper knockout spot. Of course the crowd are delighted -- the faces won the belts. It had nothing to do with how they won them. Jones and Finlay are absolutely protected by that finish. If you don't lose the titles on a pinfall, submisison or a proper knockout of course you can claim it was a fluke, etc. 

 

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10 hours ago, ohtani's jacket said:

That's another awful finish. It's hard to believe the titles could change hands on a spot like that. It's not even a proper knockout spot. Of course the crowd are delighted -- the faces won the belts. It had nothing to do with how they won them. Jones and Finlay are absolutely protected by that finish. If you don't lose the titles on a pinfall, submisison or a proper knockout of course you can claim it was a fluke, etc. 

 

They were NOT protected at all, they were utterly destroyed and humiliated, rolling around on the floor at ringside.  European fans had a different way of thinking on these things.

This (admittedly lousy) Big Daddy tag match has a very similar finish but I can't see for the life of me how Anaconda and Rasputin were protected by this finish!  Admittedly the one single camcorder was not able to film the finish as well as an ITV outside broadcast unit could but the intended effect was the same  - the heels rolling around in a heap of defeat at ringside.

 

(As an aside Rasputin worked a lot in Germany and I expect we'll be seeing  more of him as this thread progresses.)

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Afterthought: we can reasonably extrapolate that Jones and .Finlay were rolling around at ringside in defeat and humiliation (a la Rasputin and Anaconda) from the fact that they are never seen in shot again after they collide and go over the ropes.  If they had got up, narrowly failed to beat the count and run into the ring to protest, then you would have had a point there.

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How were Finlay and Jones destroyed? They had just won the previous fall and were dominating the final fall until the tombstone reversal. Jones and Finlay worked what would be a comedy spot in other territories. If they'd used the tombstone reversal as the knockout finish then it would have been more dramatic, but you don't really see finishes like that in European wrestling. A solid finish would have seen the babyfaces beat the heels cleanly. You cannot convince me that the crowd were celebrating because it was a knockout finish. I'm sorry, but regardless of how people feel about European finishes (and even British fans sometimes complain that they're weak), KOs being the most prestigious form of victory was never a thing. If it had been, it would have been evident in the hundreds of hours of WoS that is available. 

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The spot that you see all too often in European tags is the heel being tied in the ropes and the babyfaces picking up his partner and battering-ramming him into the heel's stomach. They do this a few times, the referee steps in, and then the babyfaces pick the ref up and ram *him* into the heel. It may be my least favorite spot pre-2010s wrestling and I just groan every time I see the obvious, contrived set-up for it. I don't like it as a DQ finish that puts all the heat on the ref and makes the babyfaces look stupid as opposed to a well-done "face gets disqualified finish" where they're just pushed to the limit and lose control (or are just plain framed by a clever heel). And if it's *not* a DQ, I like it even less.

My briefer thoughts on the tag in question from the Yearbook thread: "This will be fun as it's my first chance to see Marty Jones as a heel. This crowd is absolutely jacked for Zrno, chanting "MI-LE" non-stop every time he's in the ring. Schumann isn't really that good and is basically just a big musclehead but his reversal of the Hart Attack where he gets Finlay to clothesline his own partner is absolutely fucking brilliant and gets a huge reaction. The third fall takes a really unexpected detour when Schumann gets busted open and Finlay & Jones go from rather routine heels to being particularly vicious in going after the cut. Schumann ducks a flying attack by Jones and he and Finlay both tumble to the floor for the countout. This is a tag title change that the crowd pops huge for and is treated as a Big Deal. Fun match. If not the most Southern tag match in continental European history it's not far off."

That was written 10 years ago but I definitely don't recall the KO/CO finish bothering me. It seemed like a last-second desperation defensive move by Schumann and a blunder by the heels--blundering heels are okay, even vicious ones. Maybe a true southern tag would have had Zrno get tagged in and get a house-afire sequence before going to a finish, but what we got was enough to work for me.

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Chief Jay Strongbow vs. Otto Wanz (7/7/79)

Another find courtesy of Richard Land. Strongbow definitely doesn't fit the mold of classic European wrestling but from a star-power standpoint he's a fairly major get for Otto. He was squarely in the middle of a big WWF run--if the date is right, this is smack in the middle of an MSG match against Greg Valentine on 7/2 and a TV taping in Allentown on 7/10. So this is peak post-broken-leg Jay which might also be his peak as a worker post-Joe Scarpa as the Valentine matches are genuinely great. This match is professionally shot with multiple cameras and the heat is incredible...and yes, Strongbow is a full-blown heel here, which is a jarring sight. Wanz looks only barely thicker than Jay, the smallest I've ever seen him. The first round is on the level, with Jay only doing a Lou Thesz-esque elbow butt in lieu of a clean break on the ropes, but ramps up the viciousness in round two, beating down Wanz in the corner and choking him out. The crowd goes nuts for Otto's comebacks even though he does little more than a snap mare and his steamroller splash. It's repetitive and at close to 30 minutes (including round breaks) the longest Strongbow match I've ever seen, but God help me if I wasn't getting into this at the end. Strongbow takes a huge Harley Race bump over the turnbuckles in the final round and that sensibly tells you that the finish is coming, and the crowd loses their minds over it. Wanz had as much control over his fans as Chief Jay or Ivan Putski did in New York or Daddy in England, but he had just a bit more variety in what he could do than Jay and wasn't anywhere near as selfish as Putski or Daddy, as he also knows that getting beaten down and coming back is more compelling than just bulldozing a guy. They even get down and work a cool-looking leg grapevine/nelson reversal on the mat in the middle portion, just to shake things up a bit.

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9 hours ago, ohtani's jacket said:

How were Finlay and Jones destroyed?

The exact same way Anaconda and Rasputin were destroyed in that Big Daddy tag match - they were left laying in a dazed humiliated pile at ringside. There is nothing strong-keeping about that finish. Both sets of heels thoroughly got their comeuppance.  In the case of Anaconda and Rasputin, even Kent Walton joined in the jeering as the heels lay on top of each other like they were making out together "These two are either great pals or they're not doing it right."

7 hours ago, cad said:

Isn't there a British match that ended when someone slipped on a puddle of water once? That's the one I wanna see you guys debate.

Sort of.  The famous Daddy Vs Haystacks match at Wembley Arena 1981 which, (like similar bouts with Mighty John Quinn at Wembley 1979 and pre-Kamala Big Jim Harris in 1982) could ONLY be won by a knockout - a Texas Death Match by any other name - ended when Haystacks was knocked over the ropes and took a table bump.  The table in question was piled high with bouquets of flowers fans had bought for Daddy. Consequently Haystacks claimed that he had slipped on the flowers and, as we Brits say, gone arse over teakettle. He claimed he was thus robbed and wanted a rematch.  (It never came although tag matches between the two continued sporadically until Daddy's retirement in 1993.

6 hours ago, PeteF3 said:

The spot that you see all too often in European tags is the heel being tied in the ropes and the babyfaces picking up his partner and battering-ramming him into the heel's stomach. They do this a few times, the referee steps in, and then the babyfaces pick the ref up and ram *him* into the heel. It may be my least favorite spot pre-2010s wrestling and I just groan every time I see the obvious, contrived set-up for it. I don't like it as a DQ finish that puts all the heat on the ref and makes the babyfaces look stupid as opposed to a well-done "face gets disqualified finish" where they're just pushed to the limit and lose control (or are just plain framed by a clever heel). And if it's *not* a DQ, I like it even less.

Bold highlighted bit - this sounds like French Catch mainly. As we discussed on that thread, from the late 70s referees with the exception of Delaporte were treated as quasi heel Dangerous Danny Davis types who were biased in favour of Les Mechants and whom it was OK for Les Bons like Guy Mercier, Mammouth Siki and Flesh Gordon to physically assault and batter.  Generally Les Bons would get a raw deal for retaliatory tactics.

In Britain on ITV the referees were forced by the Independent Broadcasting Authority to be positive authority figures who were consistently shown to be  in control of the match.  Referees were more likely to be biased in favour of the good guys and quite right too. They would as Kent Walton put it, allow as certain amounts "for retaliation" to balance out any advantage the heel gained from fouling. Picking up the ref and using him as a battering ram was not acceptable blue-eye behaviour in Britain.

Generally the tying up a heel and battering ramming him was not done on ITV. It WAS done quite a bit on Reslo, particularly in matches involving  Orig Williams as an active in ring blue-eye competitor. A similar amount of allowance of time for retaliation was permitted at the end of which the blue eye would be privately warned to drop ithe tactics. Obviously there was a lot of it in France and Andre in America was able to adapt this for himself -he last got himself tied up in the ropes in 1990 against Demolition at WM6.

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Now THIS is more like it! Two partners from the earlier match going at it in a scientific bout without a heel referee constantly trying to upstage.  Mick McMichael does do one or two bits of his old mock cantankerousness from his bouts with Vic Faulkner - witness him complaining of a hurt shoulder after Owen uses him for leverage to spin out of an armbar (actually the young Owen reminds me of a heavier version of Vic) but unlike Didier Gapp he basically falls into line to allow Hart and Taylor to have a good scientific bout, and all three men leave as good pals after a time limit draw. Classy stuff, the best I've seen in a German/Austrian ring.

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22 hours ago, PeteF3 said:

Chief Jay Strongbow vs. Otto Wanz (7/7/79)

Another find courtesy of Richard Land. Strongbow definitely doesn't fit the mold of classic European wrestling but from a star-power standpoint he's a fairly major get for Otto. He was squarely in the middle of a big WWF run--if the date is right, this is smack in the middle of an MSG match against Greg Valentine on 7/2 and a TV taping in Allentown on 7/10. So this is peak post-broken-leg Jay which might also be his peak as a worker post-Joe Scarpa as the Valentine matches are genuinely great. This match is professionally shot with multiple cameras and the heat is incredible...and yes, Strongbow is a full-blown heel here, which is a jarring sight. Wanz looks only barely thicker than Jay, the smallest I've ever seen him. The first round is on the level, with Jay only doing a Lou Thesz-esque elbow butt in lieu of a clean break on the ropes, but ramps up the viciousness in round two, beating down Wanz in the corner and choking him out. The crowd goes nuts for Otto's comebacks even though he does little more than a snap mare and his steamroller splash. It's repetitive and at close to 30 minutes (including round breaks) the longest Strongbow match I've ever seen, but God help me if I wasn't getting into this at the end. Strongbow takes a huge Harley Race bump over the turnbuckles in the final round and that sensibly tells you that the finish is coming, and the crowd loses their minds over it. Wanz had as much control over his fans as Chief Jay or Ivan Putski did in New York or Daddy in England, but he had just a bit more variety in what he could do than Jay and wasn't anywhere near as selfish as Putski or Daddy, as he also knows that getting beaten down and coming back is more compelling than just bulldozing a guy. They even get down and work a cool-looking leg grapevine/nelson reversal on the mat in the middle portion, just to shake things up a bit.

Where can we see this one?  It isn't on YouTube as far as I can tell.  The earliest IBV (proto CWA) footage I have seen is  Otto Vs Don Leo a year later.

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Richard Land found it on a giant shipment of tapes he got from someone in Germany, same source as Tom Magee-Kamala. Mostly American TV but also a chunk of German catch and at least one World of Sport episode (just one match that ITV Wrestling doesn't link to and doesn't appear to have been in circulation previously--Peter Kaye vs. Kid Chocolate from 17 March 1981). It's available through his Patreon and going through the tapes is an ongoing process.

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1 hour ago, PeteF3 said:

Richard Land found it on a giant shipment of tapes he got from someone in Germany, same source as Tom Magee-Kamala. Mostly American TV but also a chunk of German catch and at least one World of Sport episode (just one match that ITV Wrestling doesn't link to and doesn't appear to have been in circulation previously--Peter Kaye vs. Kid Chocolate from 17 March 1981). It's available through his Patreon and going through the tapes is an ongoing process.

Is it professionally filmed with a camera crew like the best IBV/CWA stuff or is it a single handheld camcorder like the VDB footage?

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On 9/20/2024 at 8:18 AM, David Mantell said:

Two different recordings of the same bout. One fan cam and one CWA OB multicam home video match licensed to Eurosport New Catch.

Colley still looking like Detroit Demolition from Southeast Continental. (Ironically his Demolition co-founder Bill Eadie also wore that style of leotard in his later years.). His bone is the only part of the Moondog gimmick on show.   Scientific Steve makes a breath of fresh air from Obese Otto as an opponent, confounding the big clumsy American heel with all sorts of technical and acrobatic tricks en route to the win.

Now personally I prefer a good two way scientific match but I know a lot of you Americans think this is how things should ideally be, a scientific good guy Vs a big brawly brutal bad guy to emphasise the face/heel divide. So I suppose you should all like this. Me, I'm just happy to see a CWA match with some technical work in it, even if one sided.

This is actually the most technical I've ever seen a Moondog.  Certainly a fun match, but I wasn't a huge fan of the transition to Moondog control.  What was Wright thinking going for a victory roll with the ropes right there? 

Also, for a guy like Wright these are the kinds of matches that would make him a little easier to get behind in a "big guy" promotion.  He's a smallish technician, and if he only ever beats the guys his size who fight similarly he won't get near as much respect.  If he can translate his technical skill into a way to beat a big bruiser despite getting beat up, he is at least a threat to everyone he may face.

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Dave Taylor vs. Owen Hart (Wien, 8/4/90)

I'm not a huge fan of the globe-trotting younger Owen, and Dave Taylor has always lacked something for me, but I do like the novelty of watching a Dave Taylor vs. Owen Hart match. This was a deliberately paced draw, but an entertaining contest nonetheless. I particularly liked the final round where they stopped buggering around and tried to score a pinfall. If they'd worked he entire bout with that intensity it would have been a great match. 

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11 hours ago, ohtani's jacket said:
Quote

 

Now THIS is more like it! Two partners from the earlier match going at it in a scientific bout without a heel referee constantly trying to upstage.  Mick McMichael does do one or two bits of his old mock cantankerousness from his bouts with Vic Faulkner - witness him complaining of a hurt shoulder after Owen uses him for leverage to spin out of an armbar (actually the young Owen reminds me of a heavier version of Vic) but unlike Didier Gapp he basically falls into line to allow Hart and Taylor to have a good scientific bout, and all three men leave as good pals after a time limit draw. Classy stuff, the best I've seen in a German/Austrian ring.

 

Dave Taylor vs. Owen Hart (Wien, 8/4/90)

I'm not a huge fan of the globe-trotting younger Owen, and Dave Taylor has always lacked something for me, but I do like the novelty of watching a Dave Taylor vs. Owen Hart match. This was a deliberately paced draw, but an entertaining contest nonetheless. I particularly liked the final round where they stopped buggering around and tried to score a pinfall. If they'd worked he entire bout with that intensity it would have been a great match. 

Why would a submission not be similarly effective?

Chain sequences in British wrestling are about one wrestler putting on a hold and either trying to advance it  or the other escaping/reversing it - "undressing" the hold as Kent Walton would put it.  An armbar not rolled out of could become a hammerlock and then a double wristlock or a chicken wing.  As such it is about near-submission predicaments in the same way that a long  string of evenly split 2 count false finishes (which is what is supposed to be so good about Savage/Steamboat at WM3 for instance) is about pinfalls. 

The same holds true with the styles of French Catch and German Catch except that the former has a more acrobatic edge, preferring to somersault upwards rather than roll downwards, and the latter (at least between two native Germans/Austrians) slower and more deliberate with longer struggle and more time before a counter is produced.

In short I would dispute that they were at all "buggering around." Within kayfabe, a submission could have come at any time in those early rounds but for each man's knowledge of counterwrestling.

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