Why is America always assumed to be the centre of the wrestling universe?

[David Mantell]

(Copied from the WON HOF 2023 thread)

Why the United States is automatically ASSUMED to always have been the Big Time worldwide capital of professional wrestling.  Is it just patriotism/chauvinism on the part of American wrestling fans?

Obviously nowadays WWE is the biggest wrestling company on the planet and it's American so that much is understandable. In the 1960s there was a good case to be made that European wrestling was as big if not bigger a business than American wrestling.  Both British and French wrestling had prestigious mainstream national TV slots that would have been the envy of any individual US or Canadian territory between 1955 (closure of DuMont) and 1985 (launch of SNME). In  Germany/Austria by the early 80s  there was a fixed cultural link between wrestling and the big traditional festivals and a thriving early home videotape market for wrestling and a massive talent exchange with the US. 

In North America, NWA members were. ACTIVELY PREVENTED from sending footage to TV stations in other territories. In Britain and France in the 50s/60s/70"s, ITV and (O)RTF were cheerfully flogging b/w 16mm kinescope prints of their respective wrestling shows to TV stations all over Africa and Asia.

In Britain, France and Germany, old school European wrestling culture lives on, at least at grassroots level. In the US and Canada, with the one obvious exception of New York Wrestling which lives on as WWE, all the old territorial wrestling cultures of the mid//late 20th century have been wiped out. Where small time wrestling exists in America today, it takes the form of a generic modern indie wrestling style.

I would put it to you all that in the 60s, 70s and even into the early 80s, the centre of the wrestling universe was Northwest Europe, not the US and this helped smoothen the road for the popularity of WWF and to some extent WCW in the early 90s

[Shrike02]

I'd suggest your proposition needs some evidence adduced in order for anyone to judge the merit of these two claims. Especially as you have to establish some sort of nexus of causation for NWE wrestling of 60-70s-> NA wrestling popularity of 80s onward. Received wisdom is the death of the territories paved the way for WWE's explosive growth in the mid 80s.

[Control21]

34 minutes ago, David Mantell said:

(Copied from the WON HOF 2023 thread)

Why the United States is automatically ASSUMED to always have been the Big Time worldwide capital of professional wrestling.  Is it just patriotism/chauvinism on the part of American wrestling fans?

Obviously nowadays WWE is the biggest wrestling company on the planet and it's American so that much is understandable. In the 1960s there was a good case to be made that European wrestling was as big if not bigger a business than American wrestling.  Both British and French wrestling had prestigious mainstream national TV slots that would have been the envy of any individual US or Canadian territory between 1955 (closure of DuMont) and 1985 (launch of SNME). In  Germany/Austria by the early 80s  there was a fixed cultural link between wrestling and the big traditional festivals and a thriving early home videotape market for wrestling and a massive talent exchange with the US. 

In North America, NWA members were. ACTIVELY PREVENTED from sending footage to TV stations in other territories. In Britain and France in the 50s/60s/70"s, ITV and (O)RTF were cheerfully flogging b/w 16mm kinescope prints of their respective wrestling shows to TV stations all over Africa and Asia.

In Britain, France and Germany, old school European wrestling culture lives on, at least at grassroots level. In the US and Canada, with the one obvious exception of New York Wrestling which lives on as WWE, all the old territorial wrestling cultures of the mid//late 20th century have been wiped out. Where small time wrestling exists in America today, it takes the form of a generic modern indie wrestling style.

I would put it to you all that in the 60s, 70s and even into the early 80s, the centre of the wrestling universe was Northwest Europe, not the US and this helped smoothen the road for the popularity of WWF and to some extent WCW in the early 90s

Historically, I would argue that the UK should be considered the "center" of the wrestling universe as catch wrestling, which is what pro wrestling derived from, was created in the UK. Everything we see now has stemmed from that, including the divergence of classical catch contests into the type of "pro wrestling" we far familiar with today in North America (see "Gold Dust Trio"), which can be directly traced to the the arrival of catch wrestlers in the United States from Europe and the UK. Obviously, in the modern age, the US/Canada has become the center of wrestling operationally due to the presence of the biggest promotions in the world from the late 80s onwards.

[ohtani's jacket]

The money at the time was in the US and Japan. If the money had been better in the UK and France, you would have seen more big name stars tour there. 

[David Mantell]

On 11/18/2023 at 11:30 PM, ohtani's jacket said:

If the money had been better in the UK and France, you would have seen more big name stars tour there.

Why assume the American big names were the World big names?

I became a wrestling fan in 1976 aged 2.  I first heard of Hulk Hogan in December 1986.  I first read about Ric Flair in an imported copy of PWI in 1988. 

[David Mantell]

and as for the money being better in the US, I've got two words for that: Nick Gulas.

[Timbo Slice]

It’s a sociological question more than anything else. Even more than the US/Japan boom at the dawn on TV, or the localized European examples you provided, El Santo was probably per capita the most popular wrestler in the world given his exposure. But it was insular to Mexico, as there wasn’t really a huge market for Lucha outside Mexico during that time. I think your argument is more based on insularity than anything else; self-contained success just doesn’t have as big a footprint trying to be strictly national.

The majority of pro wrestling history is centered in the US/Japan because they’ve done the best job of curating their history, in many ways, propping up the successes and carrying on traditions in a more consistent manner. They’ve also had the most successes (along with Mexico) of crossing over into mainstream culture, which is why it’s seen as the be all end all. That’s not to say European countries haven’t had their successes; but I think this more has to do with at what point insularity waned to allow companies to be more international.  

[David Mantell]

1 hour ago, Control21 said:

Historically, I would argue that the UK should be considered the "center" of the wrestling universe as catch wrestling, which is what pro wrestling derived from, was created in the UK. Everything we see now has stemmed from that, including the divergence of classical catch contests into the type of "pro wrestling" we far familiar with today in North America (see "Gold Dust Trio"), which can be directly traced to the the arrival of catch wrestlers in the United States from Europe and the UK. Obviously, in the modern age, the US/Canada has become the center of wrestling operationally due to the presence of the biggest promotions in the world from the late 80s onwards.

Wrestling in Northwest Europe had a more prominent public profile until Vince Jr properly got his feet under the table in '85. 

Between 1955-1985 American TV wrestling was mostly small local stations, often minority language.  Most territories made their TV shows in  front of 50 people in a studio - even the WWF at that point taped their shows in a converted barn in rural Pennsylvania.  In Britain and France, the biggest national stations sent out Outside Broadcast units and filmed big house shows at places like the Royal Albert Hall and Elysee Montmatre and presented them as sport coverage of the top action.

Wrestling in America during the terrirories era was uniformly despised by the establishment as vulgar trash.  In Britain, wresters were invited to make personal appearances on Royal Variety shows and royalty and politicians were openly fans.  In Britain Mick McManus publicly hung out with pop stars like Mick Jagger.  In France, Le Petit Prince practically WAS a pop star minus the music and records.


 

[PeteF3]

6 minutes ago, David Mantell said:

and as for the money being better in the US, I've got two words for that: Nick Gulas.

That's sort of like denying that football money is better in England than many other countries and pointing to Hartlepool United as proof. 

Most of the American big names were also big names in Japan, so that spreads the reach quite a bit. (Of course, guys like Robinson and Horst Hoffmann were big, to varying degrees, in Japan as well. But you also had prominent guys like Albert Wall who went to Japan and didn't get over.) You saw more prominent heavyweights in Europe moving to the U.S. than vice versa. I don't know what immigration laws in 1970s and '80s UK were like as compared to the US so it may not just be as simple as money, but the direction was mostly one way.

[David Mantell]

1 minute ago, PeteF3 said:

You saw more prominent heavyweights in Europe moving to the U.S. than vice versa. I don't know what immigration laws in 1970s and '80s UK were like as compared to the US so it may not just be as simple as money, but the direction was mostly one way.

Austria/Germany especially the CWA was the usual preferred gateway territory for Americans.  Britain had a reputation for being full of shooters which apparently scared a lot of Americans, so said Lou Thesz who did tour here.

Also Europe made a lot more stars in the lighter weight divisions which was a concept that ran counterintuitive to the Bigger Better Badder philosophy of American wrestling and American culture at large.

[Control21]

11 minutes ago, David Mantell said:

Wrestling in Northwest Europe had a more prominent public profile until Vince Jr properly got his feet under the table in '85. 

Between 1955-1985 American TV wrestling was mostly small local stations, often minority language.  Most territories made their TV shows in  front of 50 people in a studio - even the WWF at that point taped their shows in a converted barn in rural Pennsylvania.  In Britain and France, the biggest national stations sent out Outside Broadcast units and filmed big house shows at places like the Royal Albert Hall and Elysee Montmatre and presented them as sport coverage of the top action.

Wrestling in America during the terrirories era was uniformly despised by the establishment as vulgar trash.  In Britain, wresters were invited to make personal appearances on Royal Variety shows and royalty and politicians were openly fans.  In Britain Mick McManus publicly hung out with pop stars like Mick Jagger.  In France, Le Petit Prince practically WAS a pop star minus the music and records.


 

I can see where you are coming from. I've always felt that UK and European wrestling has been overlooked for a long time in terms of historical significance. 

[David Mantell]

7 minutes ago, Timbo Slice said:

The majority of pro wrestling history is centered in the US/Japan because they’ve done the best job of curating their history, in many ways,

True they were quicker off the mark on the internet although Britain caught up with this a few years later.  France is still in a more primitive state when it comes to celebrating its wrestling heritage.

 

11 minutes ago, Timbo Slice said:

They’ve also had the most successes (along with Mexico) of crossing over into mainstream culture, which is why it’s seen as the be all end all.

I refer you to my remarks about Royal variety performances and other mainstream TV ops in the UK and (possibly to a lesser extent) France.

 

9 minutes ago, Timbo Slice said:

carrying on traditions in a more consistent manner.

Only one US wrestling territory lives on in 2023 (or indeed past March 2001) , compared with three surviving European old school wrestling cultures.

[PeteF3]

Japan was full of shooters, too. And a farther trip with a bigger language and cultural barrier than even Germany. It was still worth their while for Americans to go.

And how many prominent American names were really working for the CWA or the other German promoters? Edmund Schober had NWA membership in the late '70s, but the guys he and/or Wanz were booking were folks like an 18-year-old Michael Seitz (not yet Hayes), a pre-stardom Big Daddy Ritter/Junkyard Dog, and Pez Whatley. Some bigger names went over like Afa and Sika, the Destroyer, Mil Mascaras for a tour or two, and most prominently Nick Bockwinkel. But most guys going to Austria/Germany were either guys on the way up or guys on the way down (especially in the '90s).

[David Mantell]

Just now, Control21 said:

I can see where you are coming from. I've always felt that UK and European wrestling has been overlooked for a long time in terms of historical significance. 

Wrestling in the most succesful European territories had a higher profile than in the US territories at the time.

Even in weaker territories like Spain and Greece, there were 10k megashows going on in the early 70s.  Otto Wanz in 80s Germany and Hercules Cortez in 60s Spain were household names in their respective countries.

[PeteF3]

5 minutes ago, David Mantell said:

Only one US wrestling territory lives on in 2023 (or indeed past March 2001) , compared with three surviving European old school wrestling cultures.

Two. Puerto Rico is limping along but still around.

[David Mantell]

13 minutes ago, PeteF3 said:

And how many prominent American names were really working for the CWA or the other German promoters? Edmund Schober had NWA membership in the late '70s, but the guys he and/or Wanz were booking were folks like an 18-year-old Michael Seitz (not yet Hayes), a pre-stardom Big Daddy Ritter/Junkyard Dog, and Pez Whatley. Some bigger names went over like Afa and Sika, the Destroyer, Mil Mascaras for a tour or two, and most prominently Nick Bockwinkel. But most guys going to Austria/Germany were either guys on the way up or guys on the way down (especially in the '90s).

Sergeant Slaughter pre-babyface concurrently with his WWF Grand Wizard phase and JCP Don Kernodle/World tag title phase.

Andre in 1987 was juggling two separate World title quests - Hogan in the WWF and Wanz in the CWA.

The Moondogs, Baron Von Rashcke, Colonel DeBeers, the about to be Brutus Beefcake ...  Later on there was Road Warrior Hawk, Eddie Gilbert, Rick Martel, Paul Roma, WARRIOR ...  I could sift through serj1e's Youtube channel for more names.

[David Mantell]

5 minutes ago, PeteF3 said:

Two. Puerto Rico is limping along but still around.

True, although PR is not annexed so arguably deserves separate status like Mexico.

The corpse of Stampede twitched a bit in the late '00s.

[PeteF3]

Slaughter was already established and a good get for Wanz, and Andre goes without saying even if strictly speaking he was on the downslope of his career.

Ed Wiskowski and Ed Leslie pretty much prove my point. They were relative nobodies when they were working in Germany. All of those '90s guys were the "guys on the way down" I was talking about, with the possible exception of Gilbert, but he was also a guy with a very low ceiling in a national U.S. promotion as compared to a regional one. Germany also became a lot more attractive with the decline of most U.S. territories whether or not the pay scale ever changed (I have no idea if it did).

[David Mantell]

4 minutes ago, David Mantell said:

Sergeant Slaughter pre-babyface concurrently with his WWF Grand Wizard phase and JCP Don Kernodle/World tag title phase.

4 minutes ago, David Mantell said:

Andre in 1987 was juggling two separate World title quests - Hogan in the WWF and Wanz in the CWA.

 

[David Mantell]

10 minutes ago, David Mantell said:

I could sift through serj1e's Youtube channel for more names.

Don Leo Johnathan, Bobby Duncum, Steelman the future Tugboat/Typhoon/Shockmaster, Kokina the future Yokozuna ....

[David Mantell]

also obviously Spiros Arion, Jim Harris the future Kamala, Mighty John Quinn the former Kentucky Butcher (all of whom had already done well in Britain.)  

 

EDIT: oh yes and just months after he was in with Flair - TERRY FUNK

 

[PeteF3]

I didn't just ask for (North) American names. I asked for guys who were already established stars at or near their prime, not guys who hadn't yet made it or guys who were on the downswing. Don Leo Jonathan didn't work anywhere that was recorded after his match with Wanz in 1980. Arion was done after his run in Joint. Jim Harris was a relative nobody until Jerry Lawler got the perfect gimmick for him. John Quinn was on the downswing of his career and was a lesser challenger for Bruno even at his peak. Duncum kicked around into 1984 but had peaked with his run against Sammartino and was mostly washed up. 

Like I said, Slaughter was a prominent name who was in the middle of or about to have the run of his career (or one of them) in Mid-Atlantic. He doesn't compare to most of the other names that have been listed.

I'm not trying to knock the guys listed--I like all of them to some degree, before and after their primes. But I stand by my statement that if there was movement between North America and Europe between prominent stars at their peak, it was mostly one way.

[NintendoLogic]

From a business standpoint, the fact that Billy Robinson chose to work in Memphis, which was notorious for being one of the lowest-paying US territories, rather than Europe kind of says it all. Also, calling current WWE an extension of New York wrestling feels like a stretch to me. Two of the defining features of modern WWE are dominant heel champions and increased emphasis on workrate and smaller wrestlers, which are the antitheses of traditional New York booking.

[ohtani's jacket]

It's worth noting that a lot of the British workers entered North America through Canada presumably because of Commonwealth laws. 

It's a well known fact that working for Joint Promotions didn't pay particularly well. That's why the heavyweights spent so much time abroad touring in other countries. The wrestlers who worked strictly in the UK supplemented their income by taking on other jobs or owning pubs. The fact that the NWA champion rarely toured Europe brings into question the prestige of European wrestling at the time. I don't know how well France paid, but I imagine the situation was similar to the UK. 

I don't really see how anyone from Europe can be considered a bigger star than the NWA champions of the 70s, Bruno, Baba & Inoki, Dusty Rhodes, Andre the Giant, etc. Many of those stars were wrestling dates all over the world. 

 

[David Mantell]

5 minutes ago, NintendoLogic said:

Also, calling current WWE an extension of New York wrestling feels like a stretch to me. Two of the defining features of modern WWE are dominant heel champions and increased emphasis on workrate and smaller wrestlers, which are the antitheses of traditional New York booking.

It's evolved a long way but at the end of the day it's all still the W(W)WF.  The pull away from sports based presentation further and further towards entertainment has its roots in ideas deep within New York wrestling, already in evidence in the days of Mondt and Pfefer...

 

7 minutes ago, NintendoLogic said:

From a business standpoint, the fact that Billy Robinson chose to work in Memphis, which was notorious for being one of the lowest-paying US territories, rather than Europe kind of says it all.

He was primarily based in the AWA after a start period in Stampede. He kind of went on tour to places like Memphis, British Columbia etc.