Bracket #2, Match #15

[Loss]

Vote for the wrestler that you think had the better career in WWE (whether you base that on impact or match quality is your decision), from 1985 to 2005. Voting will end tomorrow morning. Please give the wrestler's name first and any explanation thereafter. Thanks.

[Loss]

Matt Hardy

 

Again, neither guy deserves to be eliminated so quickly, but Hardy's run has been longer. His peaks aren't as good as Steamboat's, but his time has been sustained, and he's always contributed.

[Marty]

Ricky Steamboat

 

Far better matches, far more distinguished history, better worker, better babyface, etc.

[goodhelmet]

Ricky Steamboat- This shouldn't even be close. Hardy's singles run was underwhelming match-wise even with the V1 gimmick. Steamboat had the better matches, ran with better angles. No contest.

[Guest rob]

Matt Hardy

[Guest Hunter's Torn Quad]

Matt Hardy

 

But I'd prefer to have been able to vote for Steamboat.

[Coffey]

Steamboat

[goodhelmet]

For the Matt Hardy voters, please explain his appeal. Is it the spot-fu tag action when he was a Hardy Boy? Was it the mediocre feud with Kane or his brother? Was it simply the V1 gimmick? Matt Hardy has been consistent in his career there... consistently mediocre.

[Loss]

Steamboat had a good run from 1985-1987 ... and left. He then came back in 1991 ... and left. Matt Hardy had a consistent run from 1997 to 2004, working his way up through the ranks as a jobber, then being the glue holding his tag team with Jeff together, and working with Edge & Christian to re-establish the division as something people cared about again. The Hardyz were a huge teenage girls draw, as was made evident by the fact that their merchandise sold so well among that group. He took everything handed to him and made all of it work. He didn't have the push Steamboat had, and he didn't have near the skill, but the guy was willing to take a background role to get over those around him, which counts for a lot in my book.

 

2003 was his best year. He had several really strong, if short, singles matches against Benoit, Jericho, Guerrero and Edge between 2000 and 2001, but 2003 is when he pulled it all together, and in addition to using his own exposure to get Shannon Moore over, he had more good matches with Benoit, some good stuff with Kidman and a couple of good matches with Rey. The title change to Rey was put in the main event slot and surprised everyone, as it was a cruiserweight title match that drew one of the biggest ratings of the year (it may have actually been the highest rating they had in all of 2003, I need to verify that). He reinvented himself and got over as a singles star after being perceived as the weak link of his tag team with his brother, and it worked.

 

Steamboat had the Savage feud.

 

 

 

 

What else?

 

Muraco? Was anything really good or memorable about that feud? Roberts? When did they have a good match, and who really talks about the feud now? They still talk about the Savage match at Wrestlemania III, which I've made my opinions clear on, but the truth is that the WWF was never suited to Steamboat, and he had his best career success elsewhere. Hardy was a better fit for the company and the time period than Steamboat was in his, and Steamboat took a hike when things didn't go like he wanted them to go, while Hardy stuck around and made the most of the situation around him.

 

It's not even close if you're looking at their overall careers, but Matt Hardy did more with less in the WWF than just about anyone ever has. You can at least argue that RVD and Jericho have flirted with main events, but Matt Hardy has been expected to stay in someone's shadow at all times, and despite that, he still carved out a respectable career with the company. Steamboat's second run was a joke because Vince was being petty, and he never got the chance to do very much, so he quit. I don't fault him for that at all, but in this company in this time period, the edge goes to Matt.

[Guest FlairPinnedMe]

I'd have to say Steamboat. Even going back to his NWA days with Ric Flair, he was great. And his feud with Steamboat is one of the best feuds of all time, IMO. He is very underrated.

 

Give Matt a couple more years, and he might be more comparable. But at this point in his career; it just isn't a logical comparison.

[goodhelmet]

I'm still looking for the definitive Matt Hardy match or angle that defines his career in WWF.

 

You say, Steamboat had the Savage feud and what else? What else did he need? The feud lasted nearly a year. It was one of the best feuds the WWF has ever produced. Ever.

 

I saw Steamboat and Roberts tear it up in Pheonix in '86. I still remember. Again, a good angle and feud.

 

You could use this same argument for Big Show and Arn Anderson. Sub in Hardy and Steamboat.

 

ie... you're Anderson had a great year in the WWF

Big Show was mediocre for most of his WWF career

 

Steamboat had a great year or 2 years in WWF

Matt Hardy had a mainly mediocre career in WWF.

 

Steamboat's first run is better than anything Matt HArdy has produced from an angle or match standpoint. Also, for the hell of it, why don't you give us your thoughts on Savage-Steamboat? I reviewed it for SNKT and went in fully expecting to bash it. Instead I came out a bigger fan of that match than ever, even though it is not close to five stars. Sometimes being great means more than being consistent.

[Loss]

I'm still looking for the definitive Matt Hardy match or angle that defines his career in WWF.

Keep looking. I haven't found it either. JBL has his, but I wouldn't vote JBL over Matt Hardy either. That's something to consider when voting, but it's not good enough criteria on its own.

 

You say, Steamboat had the Savage feud and what else? What else did he need? The feud lasted nearly a year. It was one of the best feuds the WWF has ever produced. Ever.

I'd say Bret Hart had better feuds with Austin and Owen, Shawn had better feuds with Foley and Taker, Rock and Jericho had a better feud, Hogan and Savage had a better feud, Savage and Flair had a better feud, Eddy and JBL had a better feud, Rey and Chavo have had a better feud, Rock and HHH had a better feud, HHH and Jericho had a better feud, Rock and Austin had a better feud, HHH and Austin had a better feud, HHH and Foley had a better feud, Shawn and Razor had a better feud, Shawn and Jannetty had a better feud, Savage and DiBiase had a better feud, the Harts and the Bulldogs had a better feud, the Rockers and Arn and Tully had a better feud, Bret and Hennig had a better feud, Owen and Bulldog had a better match, Michaels and Jericho had a better feud, Bret and Davey Boy had a better feud, Austin and Foley had a better feud, Austin and Benoit had a better feud and Rock and Benoit had a better feud. After that, yeah, it's somewhere in there.

 

I saw Steamboat and Roberts tear it up in Pheonix in '86.  I still remember. Again, a good angle and feud.

It's been almost completely forgotten. More people talk about the TLC matches to this day than the Savage/Roberts feud.

 

You could use this same argument for Big Show and Arn Anderson. Sub in Hardy and Steamboat.

 

ie... you're Anderson had a great year in the WWF

Big Show was mediocre for most of his WWF career

 

Steamboat had a great year or 2 years in WWF

Matt Hardy had a mainly mediocre career in WWF.

Steamboat had *one* great match, and that's debatable even. One. Matt Hardy was never mediocre. He was never great, but he was never mediocre. I don't know where you got that from. Steamboat didn't have a great *two years* in the company, because the only thing he has going for him is the Savage feud. That's it. And it's trumped by every feud I mentioned above.

 

Steamboat's first run is better than anything Matt HArdy has produced from an angle or match standpoint.

Steamboat's "run" wasn't good. Steamboat's one match was. Two years in the company and people can only point to one match that's overwhelmingly memorable. Say what you will about the TLC matches, I know I have, but they are had far more impact than the Steamboat/Jake feud.

 

Also, for the hell of it, why don't you give us your thoughts on Savage-Steamboat? I reviewed it for SNKT and went in fully expecting to bash it. Instead I came out a bigger fan of that match than ever, even though it is not close to five stars.  Sometimes being great means more than being consistent.

Consistently great is what wins out most of all. That's why I want to see Austin or Bret bag this thing in the end. But, I still would rather see three dozen *** matches than one **** one. As for Savage/Steamboat, there's no hatred, the match is too fast for anything to be sold over the long haul, the crowd doesn't pop for most of the false finishes and it's overbooked with a ref bump and outside interference.

[Guest Alfdogg]

Rick Steamboat

[goodhelmet]

I'd say Bret Hart had better feuds with Austin and Owen

Agreed on Austin, not on Owen.

 

Shawn had better feuds with Foley and Taker

I'm calling Buls**t on this one. Michaels had one good match with Foley. It wasn;'t even a feud. Foley says it was just thrown together.

 

The Shawn-Taker feud was all because of the HBK-Bret feud. It was nowhere near as good as Steamboat-Savage.

 

Rock and Jericho had a better feud

With no payoff... since there was never any doubt that Rock was the better man.

 

Hogan and Savage had a better feud

Possibly

 

Eddy and JBL had a better feud

No, they had a great match... not a geat feud. A great feud would have seen JBL losing the belt back to Eddy.

 

Rey and Chavo have had a better feud

Give me a friggin break.

 

Rock and HHH had a better feud

Not really. They had some memorable matches... mainly because we aren;'t that far away removed from them but Rock never got the payoff he deserved to end it once and for all. Also, it is hard to get behind a HHH feud when his character is so horrid. If you can get behind him, better for you.

 

HHH and Jericho had a better feud

Yep, because Jericho picking up dog poo made for great television. And Jericho getting squashed effectively in every single match makes for a great feud. Now, Jericho-Stephanie had a good feud. Jericho-HHH? No way in hell.

 

Rock and Austin had a better feud

Agreed... at least initially.

 

HHH and Foley had a better feud

If you mean the Foley career ending feud, I could argue it is comparable to Steamboat-Savage. This was also due to Foley's God-like promos during this time.

 

Shawn and Razor had a better feud

Um, no.

 

Shawn and Jannetty had a better feud

No.

 

Savage and DiBiase had a better feud

Please explain the events surrounding DiBiase-Savage because besides the Mania 4 match, they have nothing.

 

the Harts and the Bulldogs had a better feud

No

 

the Rockers and Arn and Tully had a better feud

Now you are just throwing shit on a wall to see if it sticks

 

 

Bret and Hennig had a better feud

What was this feud over again?

 

Owen and Bulldog had a better match,

Agreed, at least pretty damn close.

 

Michaels and Jericho had a better feud

You are delusional. This feud sucked even if the matches were pretty decent. It had the potential to be a great feud and like so many WWE ideas oday. it was wasted potential.

 

Bret and Davey Boy had a better feud,

No way.

 

Austin and Foley had a better feud,

--Do you mean the overbooked Russofied BS we were subjected to that was only bearable because of the insane charisma of both Foley and Austin?

 

Austin and Benoit had a better feud

No way.

 

Rock and Benoit had a better feud

Once again, no. In order for this to be a feud, Benoit would have had to actually be seenasa threat and during their mini-feud, he never was. Even if the falst start-restart finish was supposed to make him appear so.

 

More people talk about the TLC matches to this day than the Savage/Roberts feud.

Well, no shit. One happened 20 years ago. One happened 5 years ago.

 

Steamboat had *one* great match, and that's debatable even

This is debatable. He probably had many more good-great matches.

 

Steamboat didn't have a great *two years* in the company, because the only thing he has going for him is the Savage feud. That's it. And it's trumped by every feud I mentioned above.

 

Alot of the feuds you mentioned above were crap. Some had good matches, some had the potential to be awesome but in twenty years, no one will give a shit about 4/5 of them... unlike Savage-Steamboat which has continued to be praised.

 

Steamboat's "run" wasn't good. Steamboat's one match was. Two years in the company and people can only point to one match that's overwhelmingly memorable.

This is also a time when squash matches were featured on TV and we didn;'t get PPV caliber matches on television on a regular basis. I'll take the challenge and look for some MSG shows from Steamboat's era. I am sure there are some matches worth seeking out.

 

 

Say what you will about the TLC matches, I know I have, but they are had far more impact than the Steamboat/Jake feud.

So now we are giving credit to matches that have had a negative impact on the way wrestling is percieved and approached?

 

Consistently great is what wins out most of all. That's why I want to see Austin or Bret bag this thing in the end.

We'll see.

 

But, I still would rather see three dozen *** matches than one **** one.

A personal preference for sure. I would rather see a **** performance than see a few three star (debatable if they even reach that level) matches carried by better workers.

 

As for Savage/Steamboat, there's no hatred, the match is too fast for anything to be sold over the long haul, the crowd doesn't pop for most of the false finishes and it's overbooked with a ref bump and outside interference.

When was the last time you saw it? I watched it last year when I reviewed it for SNKT and my thoughts were reinforced. When I get on DVD from Nik Johns, I'll be sure to watch it again.

[Loss]

A feud is a series of matches where each guy doesn't like each other and they fight back and forth off of that over PPVs. The best feud is the one with the best matches, not necessarily the one with the best booking. We're looking at stuff in the hands of the workers. When people talk about Misawa/Kawada being a great feud, they're not talking about it being great because Kawada jumped Misawa in a parking lot and vowed revenge on him. Ditto for Flair/Steamboat, which is seen as a better feud than Flair/Funk, despite Flair/Funk having worse matches and better booking.

 

From the feuds, I mentioned, the following matches are better than Savage/Steamboat:

 

Bret Hart v Steve Austin - Survivor Series '96

Bret Hart v Steve Austin - Wrestlemania XIII

Bret Hart v Owen Hart - Wrestlemania X

Bret Hart v Owen Hart - 07/09/94 Ironman

Bret Hart v Owen Hart - Summerslam '94

Shawn Michaels v Mankind - Mind Games

Shawn Michaels v Undertaker - Ground Zero

Shawn Michaels v Undertaker - Badd Blood

The Rock v Chris Jericho - No Mercy 2001

The Rock v Chris Jericho - Vengeance 2001

Hulk Hogan v Randy Savage - Wrestlemania V

Eddy Guerrero v JBL - Judgment Day 2004

Rey Misterio v Chavo Guerrero - No Way Out 2004

Rey Misterio v Chavo Guerrero - Great American Bash 2004

Rock v HHH - Judgment Day 2000

HHH v Chris Jericho - Fully Loaded 2000

HHH v Chris Jericho - Wrestlemania XVIII

The Rock v Steve Austin - Backlash 1999

The Rock v Steve Austin - Wrestlemania X-7

HHH v Cactus Jack - No Way Out 2000

Shawn Michaels v Razor Ramon - Wrestlemania X

Shawn Michaels v Razor Ramon - Summerslam 1995

Shawn Michaels v Marty Jannetty - WWF RAW 07/19/93

Randy Savage v Ted DiBiase - any singles match they had

Hart Foundation v British Bulldogs - WWF SNME 05/87

Rockers v Brainbusters - WWF SNME 03/89

Bret Hart v Curt Hennig - Summerslam 1991

Bret Hart v Curt Hennig - King of the Ring 1993

Owen Hart v Davey Boy Smith - RAW 03/03/97

Shawn Michaels v Chris Jericho - Wrestlemania XIX

Bret Hart v Davey Boy Smith - Summerslam 1992

Bret Hart v Davey Boy Smith - In Your House V

Steve Austin v Dude Love - Over The Edge 1998

Steve Austin & HHH v Chris Benoit & Chris Jericho - RAW 05/21/01

Steve Austin v Chris Benoit - RAW 05/28/01

Steve Austin v Chris Benoit - Smackdown 05/31/01

The Rock v Chris Benoit - Fully Loaded 2000

 

That's 37 matches, right there. I'm not even a huge fan of all the matches mentioned, but I'd call them all better matches than Savage/Steamboat. If I thought about it enough, I could probably come up with 100 better matches than Savage/Steamboat, in the WWF alone, from 1985-2005 alone. And I'll take that challenge over time.

 

I'll respond to the rest of what you said in another post.

[Loss]

More people talk about the TLC matches to this day than the Savage/Roberts feud.

Well, no shit. One happened 20 years ago. One happened 5 years ago.

And more people talk about Savage/Steamboat in 1987 than the X-Pac/Road Dogg feud of 2000. Time has nothing to do with it.

 

This is debatable. He probably had many more good-great matches.

Probably. But until someone comes out and lists them all, I'm going to stick with Matt, who I've seen first hand, instead of relying on hearsay.

 

Alot of the feuds you mentioned above were crap. Some had good matches, some had the potential to be awesome but in twenty years, no one will give a shit about 4/5 of them... unlike Savage-Steamboat which has continued to be praised.

Falsely at that. None of those feuds were crap. A crap feud is a series of bad matches. None of those matches did that.

 

This is also a time when squash matches were featured on TV and we didn;'t get PPV caliber matches on television on a regular basis. I'll take the challenge and look for some MSG shows from Steamboat's era. I am sure there are some matches worth seeking out.

Noted.

 

So now we are giving credit to matches that have had a negative impact on the way wrestling is percieved and approached?

They had a negative impact, but did Steamboat/Roberts mean anything in the long haul? Anything at all?

 

When was the last time you saw it? I watched it last year when I reviewed it for SNKT and my thoughts were reinforced. When I get on DVD from Nik Johns, I'll be sure to watch it again.

I watched it at the same time you did and came to the same conclusions then that I do now. Last I watched it was probably last month. I had a review posted in the same thread yours was in.

[goodhelmet]

And yet, not one Matt Hardy match on there.

 

Also, half of those matches are not better than Savage-Steamboat.

 

Please, take the challenge. Also, a feud is not based solely on matches. Isn; that what you have been arguing with me about all this time?

 

It is based on the progression, or play, of the characters involved. That is why Hogan and Heenaan can have a great feud, yet never have a match.

 

It is also contingent on the outcome. If a feud has an unsatisfying ending, it hurts the feud... such as 3/4 of the feuds in your list

[Loss]

I never argued that Steamboat's peak is worse than Hardy's peak, but I'm not comparing peaks, I'm comparing the overall run. I'd think you'd understand that, since it's why you voted Show over Arn. A feud is about more than matches. A feud can be well-booked, however, and not translate to the ring. Some of the above feuds were poorly built, but featured great matches. Some of them were extremely well built and had great matches. I never argued against that point. I did argue the reverse, though, which is that I've never seen a bunch of Katie Vick-level bad booking lead to a great match. The only one that even comes close to that level on this list is Jericho cleaning up dog crap. But HHH and Jericho had better matches with each other than Savage and Steamboat did.

 

It's hard to have a great feud without the booking on one's side, no doubt, but how can it be considered a plus for Steamboat that he was booked to be sidelined with a throat injury when he had nothing to do with that decision? He played his role well, and the booking of the feud was exactly what it needed to be ... until they got in the ring at Wrestlemania III and proceeded to wrestle a friendly scientific match. The only thing that was missing was a handshake.

 

Unsatisfying conclusions are bad booking. We're not rating bookers, though. And if you want to compare mic skills, I'm afraid Hardy is going to triumph in that category, and he's not even great on the mic.

[goodhelmet]

I'm comparing the overall run. I'd think you'd understand that, since it's why you voted Show over Arn.

I am too which is where we disagree. You give more credit to the Brainbusters and Matt HArdy than I think they deserve. I give more credit to STeamboat and Show than you think they deserve. My argument has not swayed you and after that list of fueds, your argument def. has not swayed my opinion one iota.

 

A feud is about more than matches. A feud can be well-booked, however, and not translate to the ring. Some of the above feuds were poorly built, but featured great matches. Some of them were extremely well built and had great matches. I never argued against that point. I did argue the reverse, though, which is that I've never seen a bunch of Katie Vick-level bad booking lead to a great match.

Half of those feuds in your list had embarassingly bad writing and acting leading up top the matches. The dog poo is only one example.

 

It's hard to have a great feud without the booking on one's side, no doubt, but how can it be considered a plus for Steamboat that he was booked to be sidelined with a throat injury when he had nothing to do with that decision? He played his role well, and the booking of the feud was exactly what it needed to be ... until they got in the ring at Wrestlemania III and proceeded to wrestle a friendly scientific match. The only thing that was missing was a handshake.

 

You clearly weren't watching the same match as me. It was hardly a Flair-Steamboat headlock test of wills type scientific match. Screw it. I'll watch it again once the discs arrive from Nik Johns.

 

But HHH and Jericho had better matches with each other than Savage and Steamboat did.

I haven't seen a Jericho-HHH match yet better than Steamboat-Savage. Not a one.

 

Unsatisfying conclusions are bad booking. We're not rating bookers, though. And if you want to compare mic skills, I'm afraid Hardy is going to triumph in that category, and he's not even great on the mic.

When did I mention mic skills?

 

The only time I think I have mentioned mic skills was the Tito-Benoit matchup and I was being facetious. If I did elsewhere, it was probably a valid point.

[Coffey]

I haven't seen a Jericho-HHH match yet better than Steamboat-Savage. Not a one.

For what it's worth, neither have I.

[Loss]

I'm comparing the overall run. I'd think you'd understand that, since it's why you voted Show over Arn.

I am too which is where we disagree. You give more credit to the Brainbusters and Matt HArdy than I think they deserve. I give more credit to STeamboat and Show than you think they deserve. My argument has not swayed you and after that list of fueds, your argument def. has not swayed my opinion one iota.

You are really humoring yourself if you think you swayed me. I'd vote for Arn over Show, again, and again, and again, and again, and again. You take me understanding your logic for you swaying me, which isn't the case in the least.

 

Half of those feuds in your list had embarassingly bad writing and acting leading up top the matches. The dog poo is only one example.

Name another. In fact, point it out for half of them, if you're going to say half.

 

You clearly weren't watching the same match as me. It was hardly a Flair-Steamboat headlock test of wills type scientific match. Screw it. I'll watch it again once the discs arrive from Nik Johns.

Owen/Davey Boy and Rock/Jericho had more hate, and they were tag team partners! And yes, the match had way too much wrestling after being built up as a blood feud.

 

I haven't seen a Jericho-HHH match yet better than Steamboat-Savage. Not a one.

Fully Loaded and Wrestlemania X-8 would get the nod from me.

[goodhelmet]

You are really humoring yourself if you think you swayed me. I'd vote for Arn over Show, again, and again, and again, and again, and again. You take me understanding your logic for you swaying me, which isn't the case in the least.

 

Read the post again. I had already begun editing it before you were finished with this post.

 

 

Name another. In fact, point it out for half of them, if you're going to say half.

I will when I get home... and after you give me a list of Matt Hardy matches worth seeing. I want to marvel in the greatness that is Matt Hardy.

 

Owen/Davey Boy and Rock/Jericho had more hate, and they were tag team partners!

Bullshit

 

And yes, the match had way too much wrestling after being built up as a blood feud.

Agreed but it was also a title match... and the best way to hurt Savage in this instance is to take away what matters most to him... his belt.

[Loss]

I guess in your eyes, every wrestler is either as good as Kawada or as horrible at Gene Snitsky, because despite me saying time and time again that Matt Hardy wasn't great, you keep wanting me to give you proof that he was great. I seceded that point long, long ago, and have said it in every post I've made. I don't know if Matt Hardy has ever had a **** match. In fact, I'm pretty comfortable saying he hasn't, at least not in the WWF. I'm also pretty comfortable saying that Steamboat never did either, and that if you looked at the number of decent-good matches, Hardy is going to have more of them than Steamboat. There is ZERO case for Steamboat outside of one match, and it's a match that's very overrated. So I'm not going to give you a list of Matt Hardy matches worth seeing, because the reasons I voted for Hardy had nothing to do with him being a great worker, and everything to do with him making the most of every bad situation put in front of him, and using every opportunity he got along the way to make everyone else look good. I rank him above Steamboat because I can't say Steamboat ever had a great match in the WWF, aside from maybe the one with Bret on the house show, and because Steamboat's multiple runs in the company were comparably shorter, and because when he was put in the same situation being given little to work with in '91 and not really making anything of it, I gave the nod to Hardy.

 

And yes, both of those matches had slaps to the face, brawling outside the ring, and tons of other things Savage/Steamboat didn't have. Of course the best way to hurt Savage would be to take his title, but that's kinda wussy in the long run, and typically, great babyfaces are ones who start out getting revenge for all the wrongs done to them, only to make a crucial mistake and come back for the finish. Steamboat looked like he was wrestling his best friend until Savage grabbed the ring bell.

[goodhelmet]

You sure did make some strong assumptions about me based on one argument and despite having talked to me extensively many times.

 

I'm also pretty comfortable saying that Steamboat never did either, and that if you looked at the number of decent-good matches, Hardy is going to have more of them than Steamboat.

And this is where we disagree, which I have stated all along.

 

Stuff about Savage-Steamboat

That isn;t how that match played out at all but whatever.

[Loss]

I'm overstating a few things trying to make a point. I know you don't classify wrestlers like that, but I was pointing out that going that route made it seem like that's what you were saying. We're obviously going to disagree on this, and for whatever reason, it seems like it's getting uncomfortably tense, so I'm pulling out. If anyone is interested in furthering the discussion, feel free to start a topic in the wrestling folder.