Loss Posted January 28, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 28, 2009 I was just requesting clarification on your point. I haven't seen the match in question, I just don't believe in saying a match couldn't possibly be any good based on the reps of the people involved. Yes, they have those reps for a reason, but most wrestlers have at least one surprisingly good match on their resume. Since you've seen the match, that doesn't apply to you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smkelly Posted January 28, 2009 Report Share Posted January 28, 2009 I didn't say it couldn't be any good, just not 5* good Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resident Evil Posted January 29, 2009 Report Share Posted January 29, 2009 I'm a Benoit fan, even to this day, but in 88 and 89, it wasn't possible for him to have a match of that caliber. He didn't really hit his stride of being a fantastic worker until the early 90's. Also, Johnny Smith was never all that impressive. I think on any given night "any" two wrestling stars who can go in the ring are capable of putting on a tremendous match. I can never actually say a match is 5 stars because that's kind of like saying there's no room for improvement. And although I do think there are a few "perfect" matches out there, I still think there's always room for improvement. Benoit was capable than in 88 89 of wrestling a match of that caliber than especially with Smith who he loved working with. Even past 2000, he pretty much called him the best guy he worked with. When two guys love working with each other, great matches happen. Than there's all the house show reports which give more evidence of this. In 88, Benoit had improved in several categories and was actually better than Owen who was also fantastic at the time. Smith's job was different as he was a heel but he was as good if not better than anyone in the company at that time too. Smith had a strong mind for wrestling. Very good at complicated sequences before they became popular in North America. Strong execution and he was a very strong heel due to extremely good body language. Smith didn't get the chance too much in All Japan because that wasn't his place but when he got the ball some in 97 you got to see a lot more of his talent/mind shine there. So it's not a matter of speculating if they were capable. They were capable. These days, I don't talk about Benoit's matches or anyone's matches much as I don't watch too much anymore (KENTA vs Suzuki from 1/25 was excellent) but I will clarify myself on this. The match quality from the TV bouts from what I've seen varies some but they're all good+ to excellent. The two matches I was thinking about were 6/4 and 6/24. The beginning of the first match is excellent but the ending wasn't as good as the beginning though that was being saved for later primarly the 6/24 bout. The ending stretch of 6/24 was flawless though the beginning wasn't as strong as the ending. If one wanted to, they could fit those 2 matches together like a puzzle and we'd easily be looking at a 4 1/2 plus star match. For the Stampede style at the time, they nailed it perfectly I've known WP for a couple of years, and he is an avid Benoit/Smith/Hart's fan, and will often say their matches are 5 stars. I'm not as easily duped into grading a match that high due to personal biases. I just call it as I see it. It's not being duped. Theoretically,it's impossible to be duped since personal enjoyment of wrestling is subjective. We like what we like and we don't what we don't. Bias is alive in all of us since once again wrestling is subjective. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smkelly Posted February 2, 2009 Report Share Posted February 2, 2009 I disagree with your post. Granted it's Benoit we are talking about, it seems that you believe that simply because two guys enjoy working together, that they'll have great matches. So in that mind set, imagine Spike Dudley and Viscera working together, being best friends, would their matches be considered a MOTYC? Highly, almost impossibly no. I also disagree with Benoit being better than Owen in 88. Granted I haven't seen a large amount of Owen in 88, but the matches I have seen were definitely great, like against Yamada/Hase. Benoit was no slouch, but he wasn't at the level he needed to be at to surpass Owen in terms of being better. You say Smith was capable in 97, which is 9 years after the year I said...what's your point here? I'm in the same boat, as is many people (regarding Benoit). Benoit was my favorite wrestler, and probably still is. Many people frown on that, but the man was a talented worker, I don't rate wrestlers on their personal lives. If we did that, no one would have a wrestler they cared about. I still stand behind my original statement, that you are levied to rate Benoit matches higher because of your bias fandom of Benoit. Same goes for Bret Hart, Johnny Smith, etc. Look at your blog, look at how many matches you have that outrank the 6/3/94 Misawa/Kawada match. Exactly my point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kjh Posted February 3, 2009 Report Share Posted February 3, 2009 To be fair to Resident Evil, believing that Benoit was better than Owen in '88 isn't a silly viewpoint, as Bad News Brown at the time believed it to be true and thought Benoit got the shaft due to nepotism. I need to see more of Benoit's and Owen's early stuff, but by '88 Benoit could have been the better technician of the two, but he certainly lacked the charisma and pizzazz that Owen had, so they were both in the right roles for the time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resident Evil Posted February 3, 2009 Report Share Posted February 3, 2009 I disagree with your post. Granted it's Benoit we are talking about, it seems that you believe that simply because two guys enjoy working together, that they'll have great matches. So in that mind set, imagine Spike Dudley and Viscera working together, being best friends, would their matches be considered a MOTYC? Highly, almost impossibly no. I also disagree with Benoit being better than Owen in 88. Granted I haven't seen a large amount of Owen in 88, but the matches I have seen were definitely great, like against Yamada/Hase. Benoit was no slouch, but he wasn't at the level he needed to be at to surpass Owen in terms of being better. You say Smith was capable in 97, which is 9 years after the year I said...what's your point here? I'm in the same boat, as is many people (regarding Benoit). Benoit was my favorite wrestler, and probably still is. Many people frown on that, but the man was a talented worker, I don't rate wrestlers on their personal lives. If we did that, no one would have a wrestler they cared about. I still stand behind my original statement, that you are levied to rate Benoit matches higher because of your bias fandom of Benoit. Same goes for Bret Hart, Johnny Smith, etc. Look at your blog, look at how many matches you have that outrank the 6/3/94 Misawa/Kawada match. Exactly my point. First Point you make I believe that two wrestlers especially ones that like working together are capable of having a match better than even what the biggest optomist thinks. We've seen this time and time again. People say well x and y are only capable of doing this and yet they go out there and surpass it. Also, while Dudley and Viscera do bring some good stuff in the ring but they're not on the level of Smith or Benoit so the comparison is not really fair. 2nd Point You Make -- In Japan, Owen may have been better. I'll never know because there's no footage of Benoit available from 88 and even if there was they wouldn't be in the same role. In Stampede however, Benoit I believe surpassed him in 1988. On his best day when he was hitting on all cylinders, I would say Biff (Not Beef, Maybe he turned vegatarian?) Wellington was up there too. Against Smith, they both had better matches against him that what Owen did. In saying that, I'm not taking away anything from Smith vs Owen. Owen was more flashy and deserved imo to be at the top of the card as he had the "Tiger Mask" effect on the audience. However, Benoit and Wellington too(Pillman I liked too but he wasn't as good as Owen yet) were up there. Owen had the fancy stuff but Benoit along with being fancy himself was getting more compact in his moves such as his crossbody block. The intense effort was coming across in his work and he had become a better body language seller than Owen. He was also getting smarter in the ring. Total package wise, I think he was a better wrestler. At least in Stampede. In Japan, it could've been a different story. Who knows? Wellington too in 1988 when he was on his best game was as good as Owen imo in the ring. He had several prefomances in 1988 which really impressed me where like Benoit he was showing a lot of fire and intensity in everything he did. In saying this, I'm not taking anyhting away from Owen. He was awesome back than. 3rd Point You Make The point I'm making is that when Smith is given the ball and the roll he can be really smart in the ring and run with it. 4th Point Bobby Eaton, Johnny Smith 5th Point All rankings in my blog are mostly my personal enjoyment of the match with some consideration thrown in for I how feel it effects the overall audience. It's mostly my enjoyment though. I enjoy Smith, Hart, Benoit, Rogers and others so yeah I'm going to rate them high but I don't throw extra enjoyment points on there just for the fun of it. Misawa vs Kawada I really enjoyed with I'm guessing my 8/10 rating of it which is an impressive grade. The fact is though that no matter how many times I try it doesn't knock me over like other matches who I've rated higher do. I've tried. There are over a thousand matches I enjoy better than this so other matches being ranked ahead of it don't show bias. Now if I were to grade the match on speculation of how it effected the average fan watching it I would give it a different ranking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stunning_grover Posted February 8, 2009 Report Share Posted February 8, 2009 I also wonder of any footage of those matches with Dick Murdoch exist anywhere. 1988-06-10. NJPW. Adrian Adonis & Dick Murdoch vs. Billy Gasper (Bob Orton Jr.) & Barry Gasper (Barry Orton). http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RhfATZcLHFs 1988-06-19. NJPW. Adrian Adonis & Dick Murdoch vs. Masa Saito & Big Van Vader http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Domfk4f9NBg http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K3RmTorRY5s Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tlk23 Posted March 2, 2009 Report Share Posted March 2, 2009 Any new ones coming up? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sek69 Posted March 3, 2009 Report Share Posted March 3, 2009 I also wonder of any footage of those matches with Dick Murdoch exist anywhere. 1988-06-10. NJPW. Adrian Adonis & Dick Murdoch vs. Billy Gasper (Bob Orton Jr.) & Barry Gasper (Barry Orton). http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RhfATZcLHFs 1988-06-19. NJPW. Adrian Adonis & Dick Murdoch vs. Masa Saito & Big Van Vader http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Domfk4f9NBg http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K3RmTorRY5s Wow, he did lose a lot of weight. He was absolutely gigantic in the AWA, and in those matches he almost looks like his pre-Adorable self. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.