FINALS! PHASE 2, MATCH 3

[Loss]

Vote for the wrestler that you think had the better career in WWE (whether you base that on impact or match quality is your decision), from 1985 to 2005. Voting will end tomorrow morning at the latest. Please give the wrestler's name first and any explanation thereafter. Thanks.

[Guest Hunter's Torn Quad]

This one is hard. I'm tempted to go with The Rock, for obvious reasons, but I'm also tempted to go with Jericho because he's been of more long term use over the past four years. This one is really hard, but I'm going to have to go with Chris Jericho.

 

If I can, I'll try and elaborate more later.

[Ray]

The Rock

 

If Jericho hadn't had his legs cut off by booking I might have a different answer.

[Guest Alfdogg]

The Rock

[goodhelmet]

Rock

[Guest teke184]

The Rock

 

 

If Jericho had ever gotten a run on top without getting treated as a joke, there would actually be a competition.

[Guest Mac]

Rock.

[Guest rob]

The Rock

[Coffey]

The Rock

[Guest The Man in Blak]

The Rock

[MyOwnSummer]

Rock

[Guest Some Guy]

Rock.

[Marty]

The Rock

 

Jericho's a better worker, but the rest of him is Rock-lite: All the character, charisma, overness of the Rock, but without the push. It's a shame, because I think Rock saw that in him too.

[Guest Hunter's Torn Quad]

It was pretty clear that everyone, almost without exception, is going to vote for Rock over Jericho, and I can see why they would do that, but I went with Jericho instead, and I thought it might be an idea to explain why I went against what many see as the obvious choice.

 

Wrestling: This is probably the only factor than Jericho would seem to have the obvious edge over Rock, but, as I?ll explain later, it?s not just here that Jericho beats Rock. Chris Jericho is a better wrestler than The Rock for a great many reasons.

 

Jericho?s overall selling is better and more diverse than The Rock. While Rock can take the more grandiose bumps to get certain high impact moves, like the Stunner and the Gore over, his selling in other areas just doesn?t rate highly with me. Jericho is a lot better and smarter when it comes to selling body parts. When both men have had injured ribs for example, they?ll both have them taped up, but Rock might grab at them from time to time, but his facials when selling it are almost non existent beyond a very brief grimace. Jericho, on the other hand, will really sell it, almost Ricky Steamboat-like. He?ll really hold the ribs, he?ll grimace and wince throughout the match, and he?ll actually sell the weakness, and even shy away from his opponent in a manner to protect his ribs, which makes sense to do with an injured body part. Rock never does that, and he?ll really wrestle his normal match, and it?s like the injury isn?t even there a lot of the time.

 

Jericho?s offense is also a lot more diverse than The Rock. Jericho can do a so much more in the ring than Rock, that, while it isn?t a necessity to success, as others have shown, it does make for a much better overall performer, and it allows for better matches with a wider variety of opponents. Move wise, Rock doesn?t do a whole lot in the ring, and what he does do doesn?t always look smooth, with his ?belly-to-belly suplex? looking like a total joke, because it?s clear he?s doing nothing but gently guiding his opponent over as they very obviously launch themselves into the air. It never looked good, and should have been dropped.

 

Interview skills: Chris Jericho does better promo?s than The Rock. I?ll wait for the jaws to be picked up off the ground before continuing, as I?m sure there are some people going to wonder where I?m at with that statement. When it comes to promo?s that sell tickets, that get you attached to the characters in the ring, that make you want to buy PPV?s, Jericho blows Rock out of the water. Is Rock an entertaining guy on the mic ? Absolutely. But therein is the biggest problem I have with The Rock on the mic. He does great promos for popping the crowd, for making them laugh, and getting them cheering, and I won?t dispute that. But for selling tickets, for selling PPV?s, he is very much hit and miss. I don?t doubt Rock could get the crowd going nuts just by reading from the phone book, but that would sell the same number of tickets as me challenging Batista on PPV. i.e. none whatsoever. Rock?s promo?s generally only ever got Rock over, and that?s all they ever seemed designed to do, whereas Jericho?s promos would get over, not just Jericho, and he?d even be secondary at times, but they?d get over his opponent, and they?d actually make people want to see the match he was hyping. I won?t deny being entertained by The Rock, but outside of his mic work leading up to his match with Austin at WM X7, I can?t think of a single Rock promo that has ever made me think, ?I have to see this match he?s talking about?.

 

A simplified way of putting it would be that Jericho does the better wrestling promo?s, but Rock does the better entertainment promo?s, and this is, after all, wrestling.

 

Charisma: I?ll give this one to The Rock. There?s no reason to go into this one a lot, as even Jericho?s biggest fans would have to admit Rock is the clear winner in this department. Jericho isn?t dull by any means, but The Rock is on a level above just about everyone else in the universe.

 

Drawing Power: Rock?s peak drawing power was obviously far above Jericho?s. If Jericho had been treated like The Rock, he might have been able to make it a closer race in this area, but we all know why that never happened, and will never happen, and Jericho?s potential peak for drawing as long since dropped like a stone, which is a shame.

 

Versatility: This one favors Jericho for me, because while both men are equally adept at playing babyface or heel, Rock has that intangible that makes people really not want to boo him. Yes, there was the deal with Hogan at WM X8 but that was solely down to nostalgia, and even then, when they had their rematch at No Way Out a year later, Rock only got booed when he made his entrance. Unlike their first encounter, the No Way Out match had virtually zero heat until the finish. Nobody booed The Rock at all, and the match was wrestled in almost complete silence.

 

Compare that with Jericho, who, when he is a babyface will get cheered against anyone, and when he is a heel, will get jeered against anyone. Whether it?s being a heel or a babyface, Jericho can play up the necessary aspects of each role that, even if people might still want to cheer/boo him, he can turn them around and get them siding with him or his opponent to get the desired reaction.

 

2001-2005 This is where Jericho really runs away with it for me, and makes it even more clear that he deserves the nod, because in that timeframe Jericho had a huge body of work, whereas Rock was only around for a few months at a time here and there. Jericho feuded with Austin and Triple H, albeit briefly, feuded with Van Dam, Rock, when he was around in 2001, Flair, Shawn, Christian, and had skirmishes with fair few others. He also had a nice, if all too short, run with Christian in the tag division, and a run with the Undisputed title, even if he was booked like a total fool.

 

Rock was around from August 2001 until the end of March the next year, and did some big stuff, I don?t deny that. But after he left in March of 2002, apart from letterboxing the Undisputed belt to Brock Lesnar, he was almost never around for very long, and it?s hard to get any real use out of a guy when he?s never there. Yes, Rock faced Hogan, Austin and Goldberg in early 2003, but he was only around long enough to set those programs up, never did anything of real note apart from said programs, and once he put over Goldberg, and that match was botched up like crazy, he was gone. Those programs might have drawn a lot of money and short term interest, but in the long term, it didn?t do a whole lot. His putting Lesnar over big, and doing it in the right way, did a lot for long term, but that in itself was almost all ruined thanks to the politicking of Triple H, so it?s hard to know what good it really did, when the efforts of Rock to put Brock over were never allowed to reach their full potential.

 

With Jericho staying for all of that timeframe, he was able to better and more actively, obviously, contribute to the company in terms of getting people and angles over and elevating talent, and while Rock got monster pops for his occasional surprise returns, monster pops don?t always translate into good business, and I don?t think the effect on business that Rock had with his visits is comparable to the effect that Jericho was able to have by always being around and able to be used to make money, get people over, etc. Short term, one might argue in favor of Rock, but over the long haul, Jericho did more and meant more than The Rock.

 

I know I?m probably pissing in the wind when it comes to changing the minds of people who have voted for Rock, but the intent of this was never to change minds. I?m just explaining a decision that probably has some people scratching their heads.

[Loss]

Chris Jericho

 

I was actually going to side with the majority here and vote Rock, but reading HTQ's post really put it in perspective for me. For those who are curious what he means by the promos making you want to see matches, check out what Jericho did before the '02 Royal Rumble. I'm confident that interview had *a lot* to do with the buyrate being so high for that show. Also, check out Jericho's side-by-side comparison of himself and Shawn Michaels before Wrestlemania XIX. It was an amazing interview, and showed that when Jericho gets the chance, he can do some awesome stuff on the mic. Jericho is also the only guy who has ever been able to go both word-for-word on the mic with Rock and move-for-move in the ring, as Rock has even admitted that Jericho's promos were so good during their feud that he felt he had to elevate his game to keep up. The Rock, in 2001, told anyone who would listen that Chris Jericho was far and away the best worker the company had. I feel bad voting against Rock here, but I'm making it up by supporting him against practically everyone else anyway.

[Guest Some Guy]

Interview skills: Chris Jericho does better promo?s than The Rock. I?ll wait for the jaws to be picked up off the ground before continuing, as I?m sure there are some people going to wonder where I?m at with that statement. When it comes to promo?s that sell tickets, that get you attached to the characters in the ring, that make you want to buy PPV?s, Jericho blows Rock out of the water. Is Rock an entertaining guy on the mic ? Absolutely. But therein is the biggest problem I have with The Rock on the mic. He does great promos for popping the crowd, for making them laugh, and getting them cheering, and I won?t dispute that. But for selling tickets, for selling PPV?s, he is very much hit and miss. I don?t doubt Rock could get the crowd going nuts just by reading from the phone book, but that would sell the same number of tickets as me challenging Batista on PPV. i.e. none whatsoever. Rock?s promo?s generally only ever got Rock over, and that?s all they ever seemed designed to do, whereas Jericho?s promos would get over, not just Jericho, and he?d even be secondary at times, but they?d get over his opponent, and they?d actually make people want to see the match he was hyping. I won?t deny being entertained by The Rock, but outside of his mic work leading up to his match with Austin at WM X7, I can?t think of a single Rock promo that has ever made me think, ?I have to see this match he?s talking about?.

I think it could be argued that people bought tickets to hear Rock talk and to sing along with him. Rock stood alone as a draw, very few guys ca claim that. People wanted to see Rock talk or Rock wrestle anybody. I don't think too many people bought tickets to hear "And you will never...EEEEEEEEEEVVVVVVVVEEEEEEEEERRRRRRRRR forget it again," they did buy tickets to hear "Finally...."

 

Rock buried people in his promos, I will grant that. I don't think Taker really liked having his tattoos refered to as "Mickey Mouse tattoos." He sat Jericho on his ass in Jericho's debut which he probably shouldn't done to the extent that he did.

 

I agree about Rock's ring work, which really started getting sloppy in certain areas as his career went on. The Belly-to-Belly, Sharpshooter, and his punches got looser and looser as time went on. The problem with his punches and the B-T-B and even his Samoan Drop was that he made his comebacks at 1000 MPH. He should have slowed down a bit and let the crowd rise with him as he sped up. Instead he's make his comeback and hit 45 punches in 10 seconds. 5 more deliberate punches would have a better effect. Austin's mud hole stomping is an example of how it is done properly. The first few were slow and then he sped up and brought the crowd along with him and allowed his opponent to sell each kick, rather than every third one.

[Guest Hunter's Torn Quad]

I think it could be argued that people bought tickets to hear Rock talk and to sing along with him.  Rock stood alone as a draw, very few guys ca claim that.  People wanted to see Rock talk or Rock wrestle anybody.  I don't think too many people bought tickets to hear "And you will never...EEEEEEEEEEVVVVVVVVEEEEEEEEERRRRRRRRR forget it again," they did buy tickets to hear "Finally...."

 

I doubt many people bought a PPV or purchased a ticket for one solely to play sing-a-long with Rock, and that's where the real money is. I don't doubt Rock was a draw. I just don't think his promo's did anything to really help, at least on PPV where it matters. As I said in my piece, outside of the WM X7 stuff, Rock hasn't cut one promo that's made me want to buy the upcoming PPV he's hyping.

[Guest Some Guy]

I think a lot of people did buy tickets to see Rock talk. Considering his promos were a central part of the show and how over they were. As far as his promos selling PPVs, you're probably right. He never really took his opponents seriously enough or put them over at all prior to the match. Everything was making fun, rather than building them up. I'm not sure how much of that was Rock going into business for himself or doing what he was told to do, I suspect the latter. Russo and Ferrara wrote a ton of his shit and and neither one of them understood how to build up a match.

 

Jericho sold the WM match with Shawn when he did the promo about how he idolized him and showed the clips of him working in Canada and Shawn as a Rocker.

[Guest Hunter's Torn Quad]

I don't doubt Rock sold tickets with his promo's, and I may not have got that point across well. The Rock's promo's sold tickets because he was entertaining with them, but for me, he didn't sell tickets based on him actually getting the people to want to see him kick someone's ass or see someone kick his ass, and that's what a wrestling promo should do. Rock's promo's were entertainment promo's and not wrestling promo's, and I felt that was what gives Jericho the edge in mic work, because his promo's were wrestling promo's, and damn good ones most of the time.

[Guest Some Guy]

I get your point and agree with you. But Rock, as you have admitted Rock's promos drew money and that is what it's all about. Rock's matches had heat because he was the fucking Rock, so it could be argued that he didn't really need to cut classic wrestling promos for his matches to draw. Jericho, while being a good worker, a great talker, and a charismatic guy is just not the Rock and doesn't have that luxory.

 

I think that Jericho's promos are getting better now that he's pretty much cut out all of the lame catchphrases like "Would you please SHUT THE HELL UP!" and what not.

[Guest Hunter's Torn Quad]

It might be able to be argued that Rock didn't need to cut a traditional wrestling to draw, but the fact that, for me, he's rarely be able to cut one is a mark against him when deciding on to vote for.

 

And whether he drew or not isn't really what it's all about, Each person, as other votes have shown, have their own criteria when deciding on who to vote for, and drawing power doesn't always play that much of a part in it. Rock could have drawn a billion dollar house with his entertainment promo's, and I'd still have given the nod to Jericho for mic skills, because he cut wrestling promo's, and that's the criteria I judged on.

[Guest Some Guy]

It might be able to be argued that Rock didn't need to cut a traditional wrestling to draw, but the fact that, for me, he's rarely be able to cut one is a mark against him when deciding on to vote for.

 

Is it that he was rarely able or that he rarely tried? Rock did have the ability to be semi-serious when he wanted.

 

As far as criteria for how you vote: That's up to you. I'm trying to take all factors in (ring work, mic skills, drawing ability, entertainment value, etc..) and make my decision based on that. The only spiteful vote I've made was putting HTM over HHH.

[Guest Hunter's Torn Quad]

Whether he was able to or not, the fact is he rarely tried to, and I counted that against him.

[Guest Some Guy]

Fair enough.