goc

I would love to lay the blame for the lack of interest at Kevin Owens feet because I feel his title reign has been very bad, not just in booking but his overall performance as a character and definitely in the ring but December is generally the worst month of the year for WWE PPVs is it not? I mean it was a PPV a week before Christmas when people are busy doing other things plus spending their money on gifts so going to a high priced WWE event is probably not going to be a high priority. The weak card (and champion) didn't help but even if they'd done some amazing job promoting it & put together a great card I'm not sure it would have led to a huge increase in interest or tickets sold.

'member when they won the Smackdown Tag Titles in a really great match?

This is one of the matches that Heroes and Legends is running this year and if it's indicative of the types of matches they usually run, I can see them drawing big crowds. God damn I hope this footage is made available.

This shows that you don't understand how the voting worked (and that a whole lot of voters never even posted on PWO before or after the voting took place) and that there was a LOT of disagreement over the rankings during the entire time they were being revealed.

Again, this goes back to the "it's not a monolith" thing. If you bury Okada on twitter, some people are going to agree with you and some people are going to call you a fucking idiot. Same goes with Cena, Roman Reigns, Misawa, Ric Flair, The Young Bucks, Charlotte, Sasha Banks, whoever the hell you want to name. The size of the positive or negative reaction really just depends on how many followers you have and whether you're existing in a twitter echo chamber or not.

I'm not sure how you're qualified to speak to what the culture of wrestling twitter is when you only follow 8 people. It's the same as various wrestling message boards, what is liked and disliked varies by the person you follow just as it does based on what boards you go to. There are people you can follow on twitter who will praise a bunch of WWE stuff while bashing New Japan and vice versa. There are people you can follow who pretty much only tweet about lucha, or who talk a lot about the euro indy scene. It's really not a monolith.

I'm not trying to pick on you but this is one of the reasons you get so much negative feedback when you start talking about lucha. The idea that a match structured in that way is "not very Lucha-y" is not based on ACTUAL lucha but some weird idea you've created in your head of what lucha is. That's a pretty standard way for a lucha match to be structured. I'm glad you're going back to the Lucha 80s set though as I know you liked more of what you watched from that set than you disliked.

Saw a few different trustworthy accounts on twitter report that lucha legend Mocho Cota has died at the age of 62. I know he was a favorite among some of the posters here and did fairly well in the GWE poll for a guy who didn't seem to get much love before the 80s Lucha set got released. Unfortunately we don't have a lot of footage of him during his prime in the 80s but what we do have makes him look like an all time great rudo. RIP

LOL!!!!!!! Let's see what happens when someone says Dory sucks or Flair isn't a top ten wrestler of all time. Do you find that antagonist?Outside of the context of GWE, I couldn't care lessYour response to me making a joke on twitter about Jimmy Golden putting Flair to sleep like Flair's 60 minute draws did to me really say otherwise. No clue what this is in reference to You getting upset and blocking me on twitter for a few weeks after this:

LOL!!!!!!! Let's see what happens when someone says Dory sucks or Flair isn't a top ten wrestler of all time. Do you find that antagonist? Outside of the context of GWE, I couldn't care less Your response to me making a joke on twitter about Jimmy Golden putting Flair to sleep like Flair's 60 minute draws did to me really say otherwise.

But it's different and challenges you to think more than "oh look at Kobashi chop this guy really hard" so just say it sucks and move on. I do feel victimised for not liking lucha, truth be told. Well let me say that's pretty ridiculous as there are more people in this thread saying "I've never really gotten into lucha" than beating the lucha drum. If you've been "victimised" in this thread it's because you went out of your way to try and antagonize people who do like lucha by saying "it sucks" or dismissing and mocking people's posts defending it or trying to explain why it's not as popular as other forms of wrestling. If you walk down the street with a kick me sign on your back, you don't get to claim you're a victim when someone kicks you.

Parv it's very cute how you've seemingly tried to turn yourself into a victim of "wrestling elitism" in this thread when you're the one who deliberately came in here to troll people by saying "lucha sucks." I don't even think you ACTUALLY think lucha sucks you just want to dismiss it and never see or hear about it again despite the fact that you've probably liked more lucha matches than you've disliked: But it's different and challenges you to think more than "oh look at Kobashi chop this guy really hard" so just say it sucks and move on.

I'm inclined to also give Road Dogg (writer) and Scott Armstrong (producer/agent) a lot of credit for Smackdown's greatness. It feels like a high production version of Southeastern/Continental at times with majority of the roster being involved in an ongoing story & getting time on the mic. The masked Becky Lynch thing from last night was straight from the Alabama playbook.

This is pretty much how I approached GWE and I certainly didn't feel bad about it then or now. I didn't totally discount Japan as I know for sure I had Fujinami and Onita on my ballot and possibly 1-2 more but I spent a lot more time watching lucha because I knew I'd enjoy it more and it was going to be less represented.

I don't think I've made more than 4-5 posts about All Japan on this board, usually just to reply to people asking me if I've seen X match or why I wasn't voting someone for GWE. I just don't really care about it. I've tweeted about it a little bit and the "people don't react much" thing is definitely not true with the amount of people who either blocked me, argued with me, or subtweeted about me when I said Misawa wasn't a smart worker.

As far as this whole "tribalism" argument goes, I did come into this thread to give Parv shit about posting "lucha sucks" because that's pointless. I mean I'm not going to go into topics about modern New Japan or EVOLVE and go "Eww why do you people watch this?" just to annoy people who like something that I don't really care for. Especially when this thread is specifically about "why do people not like lucha?" and "because it sucks" isn't even an attempt to answer that question. But the rest of the stuff I said about why I personally find lucha more accessible than Japanese wrestling is 100% how I feel about the matter and I'm fairly certain I said these same things back during GWE when people were happily declaring they weren't voting for any lucha guys while looking down their nose at anyone not voting for a bunch of Japanese wrestlers.

I agree with this but just as some people don't like Memphis brawls because "they sell too much for simple punches" or whatever I don't like some of the Japanese wrestling I've seen because I think immediately popping back up to deliver a clothesline after being dumped on your head with a suplex is not selling enough.

Monopoly - the exclusive possession or control of the supply or trade in a commodity or service Considering how many other professional wrestling companies there are that seem to be successful and making money, and there are guys who have turned down WWE offers to remain in those promotions it would seem hard to classify WWE as a monopoly.

So you are a big fan of Dragon Gate then? Numbers 1-4 are unequivocally prominent in Dragon Gate even among smart fans in as much that the most notorious English speaking Dragon Gate fan in Jae doesn't legitimately like the lead hero currently in Shingo. I see you ignored #5. No, I don't care for Dragon Gate. I see you ignored #1-4 as being really close to Dragon Gate. I also would certainly put the selling in Dragon Gate up there with the spot fest oriented Lucha. Is selling so powerful that it trumps all of your other parameters. It's pretty damn important considering that if a match doesn't have good selling then nothing that happens in it really matters. I'm not a lucha spotfest guy either, or an American spotfest guy for that matter. I like bloody brawling lucha matches or trios with a lot of hijinx and comedy like a good Brazos matches. I'm very anti-spotfest wrestling as I think I've made clear in my complaints about the way current WWE main event style is evolving. I don't watch wrestling to just to see a bunch of "cool moves." None of it means anything to me if guys are just gonna quickly jump to the next "cool move" without selling anything.

So you are a big fan of Dragon Gate then? Numbers 1-4 are unequivocally prominent in Dragon Gate even among smart fans in as much that the most notorious English speaking Dragon Gate fan in Jae doesn't legitimately like the lead hero currently in Shingo. I see you ignored #5. No, I don't care for Dragon Gate.

For me personally the argument that lucha feels more "foreign" couldn't be more wrong. It shares a lot of the same aspects of American wrestling that I like and are pretty much necessary for my enjoyment of wrestling: 1. A clearly differentiated line between the good guys and the bad guys 2. Matches with structures based around the bad guys getting heat and the good guys making comebacks 3. Bad guys who cheat and go out of their way to let you know they are, in fact, the bad guys 4. Loud, colorful characters (I'm not talking about just costumes here, guys like El Satanico and Mocho Cota bring a lot of personality to their matches) 5. Lots of selling To me Japanese wrestling has always felt far more "foreign" from American wrestling than lucha because there is often not a clear divide between faces and heels, there isn't that structure of heat/comeback, there are a lot less colorful characters & personalities and the selling is far more subdued.

Why are you falling back on the "personal taste" argument now? You're the one who came blazing into this thread with your hot take that "lucha mostly sucks" instead of saying there was any personal taste involved.

Aren't you the person who just marked out over a Dragon Gate match? Give me lucha over puro any day. It has characters, hatred, selling and tons of personality. That's what good wrestling is. Japanese wrestling is just like someone saw American wrestling and said "oh this is cool but I'm gonna remove all the promos and characters, take out a bunch of the selling and make all the matches needlessly long" Aww but the moves "lack impact." I guess they need to add in the burning hammers, backdrop suplexes and Ganso (Golden) Bombs so that everyone in lucha can be completely broken down (or dead) by the time they hit their mid/late 40s like the vaunted Four Pillars.

Fuck them. Already got there money.