Jingus

Don't forget to take into account the WWE's all-encompassing obsession with owning all of their wrestlers' names and gimmicks. They can't copyright Bryan Danielson, because it's the dude's real name; but they can certainly own Daniel Bryan. Why they're so ridiculously OCD that they demand to own everything they ever touch, I have no idea; well, aside from Vince's general control-freak issues, anyway.

So why the hell didn't he just let Shawn go and keep Bret instead? Hart was a much more reliable employee and a better consistent draw than Michaels was. Getting rid of HBK would've meant Vince instantly becoming free of a lot of the backstage problems which had plagued the company; and it's not like WCW would've had any idea of what to do with Shawn anyway. And if the WWF no longer had to pay Shawn's probably-huge salary, then Bret's contract suddenly becomes infinitely more affordable. It boils down to Vince showing a really bizarre and still-unexplained favoritism to Shawn, letting him get away with all kinds of ridiculous bullshit which McMahon would've NEVER tolerated from any other performer before or since.

A Saturday Night's Main Event in early 2006 had the two Mania main events against each other in a handicap match, including champs Cena and Angle.

Me neither. Unless it's "how dare he put down the Harts" bullshit. No, it's just unprofessional wrestling. Maybe it's not obvious if you've never wrestled (and yeah, I know how stupid the old "ya don't know nuthin' if ya never been in da ring" canard usually is, but on rare occasions it does have a kernel of truth), but JBL was hitting Harry harder with some of those shots than he usually hits people. The way he stayed on top of him in the opening barrage, Smith had no idea when or where some of those strikes were coming. That's a no-no, you're never supposed to whack someone when they're not prepared for it. And even though Bradshaw typically did have a rather painful way of throwing his clothesline, the ones here looked like they were swung higher than normal. You're not supposed to hit the guy in the neck or the face with that move, and that's right where he was aiming. Also, iirc, this was soon after Smith's wellness suspension, so maybe this was one of those "message from the office" deals. Which doesn't make it better, because like I said before, I've got a moral objection to management handing out "lessons" via beatings in the ring. If you think this one was too tame, check out the time he and Simmons beat the holy hell out of Public Enemy, blasting them with weapons shots in a reckless and dangerous manner.

The problem is, it's inconsistent. Bradshaw always picked and chose his spots when it came to REALLY hitting someone. Check out his treatment of DH Smith in . When does JBL ever lay into the top guys or tough guys like that? He'd never do that to Cena/HHH/Batista/Taker because it wouldn't be politically wise, and he'd never do that to Shamrock/Angle/Brock/Swagger because they would have ripped his head off and gone bowling with it. Bradshaw only got super-stiff when he was doing it to someone who lacked both the backstage power and the size/shooting ability to fight back in any way.

I don't blame the crowd themselves, it's TNA's own fault for shooting in that building almost exclusively over the past several years. What did they expect, it would be like the Midsouth Coliseum and the crowd would just stay hot forever? Not with THIS booking, brutha.

Why? It just further perpetuates the creepy unwritten-rules nature of wrestling, with the idea that someone who's fucking up won't even know they're fucking up until the enforcer physically assaults them. In today's atmosphere, especially in a publicly traded corporation, there shouldn't be any of that old-school nonsense. You should deal with problems in a direct manner and not in front of the fans, not just say nothing until you have one guy beat up another which usually makes for an awkward match that the fans don't like. Yeah. The wrestlers are often surprisingly closed-mouthed about it, with few willing to discuss it in detail; but from what little I've heard, Wrestler's Court is mostly just a joke and a way for the boys to entertain themselves. It sounds basically harmless, and is in a completely different ballpark from "hey Acolytes, go beat the everliving shit out of this guy" or all the mean ribs pulled on the road.

Why?

What good stuff involving Gary Hart should I track down? I only remember him from WCW circa 1989, and wasn't impressed. He seemed like an awfully selfish sumbitch, sometimes not even bothering to sell when the wrestlers would hit him. Yeah he was a former wrestler himself; but I'm sorry, if you're a manager and World Champion Ric Flair punches you in the face, "storming off with a petulant expression while not even trying to look like you're in pain" shouldn't be your go-to reaction. What's the consensus on James Mitchell these days? He's one of the few modern managers who stuck around long enough in different companies to make an impression, just wondering how y'all think he stacks up to the fabled managers of yore.

Yeah, that's the problem. "Everything" that you and I have read. But . (And seriously, why doesn't this board have Youtube-embedding tags?) You can see for yourself, plain as day, that Bob Holly does precisely zero sandbagging on that move. He very clearly gets himself into proper position, plants his feet, and jumps. Brock was the one who botched the move. Just watching it, it's so completely obvious that it's all Brock's fault (especially the end, why wouldn't you put the guy down and try again rather than just dropping him on his head?). Yet somehow the "Holly sandbagged, so he deserved it" story became the official IWC version of the events. How the hell does such a blatantly false lie become so widely accepted, when one look at the video easily proves it wrong?

I wouldn't vote for Dreamer, but I can see why some people might want him on the ballot. If you loved the overbaked ECW style of brawling (and many still do), he was certainly one of the top guys in that niche. For being a mediocre talker and a one-dimensional wrestler without anything even resembling a gimmick (besides "local whipping boy"), he never had any problem connecting with the fans. He generally stayed over wherever he went, and was managing to have surprisingly watchable matches in WWECW when his fragile body was long past its prime. Plus he's done plenty of backstage work in every company that ever employed him, booking and writing and training and merchandise and various other stuff. Admittedly he wasn't a good booker from most reports, but just wearing all those extra hats does strengthen his case a little bit. But the simple lack of ever drawing any crowd bigger than a couple thousand people is probably enough to dismiss him.

Fair enough. I don't recall what the backstage talk was regarding it at the time, I only saw the footage they released. But how often does he do it intentionally? I can't recall any examples off the top of my head. And I've seen people specifically whining that Bob sandbagged on that particular powerbomb so many times that it boggles the mind. Kinda the same thing with Kennedy on that flubbed hiptoss where Cena got hurt; Ken clearly planted his feet and jumped, but they were both out of position and they fell down went boom. Yet a shit-ton of people moaned about how it was all Kennedy's fault for not going up for the move. I can understand disagreeing on some things, but in these examples a single glance at the footage instantly debunks those claims, so how some people still cling to those talking points is incomprehensible to me.

Just so you UK guys know: if you ever come to America, watch it with saying twat and especially cunt. Those words are considered really dirty over here, especially if said to a woman. Slinging those around can be a real easy way to get slapped.

Eyeball? I just went back and watched it again, and they didn't mention anything about that, it was his mouth bleeding. Once again, the only part I hated was when he stomped Matt square in the face. Everything else was pretty much the exact same way that Holly always wrestled, he was well known for being a grumpy stiff bastard at all times. And yeah, Tough Enough's training speeches were always incredibly hypocritical and dripping with fake respect for the business, but that's nothing new either. Also, I peeked at the video where Brock broke Bob's neck. Where the fuck did the whole "Holly tried to sandbag the powerbomb" talking point originate? Bob clearly plants his feet and goes up for the move, Brock just lost him on the way up and apparently decided that ganso-bombing him was the proper soluttion.

FWIW, Vader is also the only guy I've ever seen who somehow managed to enrage Hogan enough to throw some potatoes of his own. Turn up the sound on their match at Superbrawl, and you can literally hear Hulk's fist smacking into Leon's face at times. Yeah, I've heard that too. Kory Williams told me about the time he got pulverized when Vader did that one run-in at the Memphis show. Vader told Kory to just stay motionless in the corner and let Vader do all the work, and everything would be fine. Kory was pretty green then, so he flinched during the barrage and promptly got knocked the fuck out.

It's ironic since I started the Bradshaw bashing, but I actually like the guy as a performer. He sometimes brainlocks against certain opponents (if JBL ever had a match against Taker that was worth watching, I haven't seen it) but overall he's a perfectly decent wrestler. When he's not shooting on someone, of course. And to try to keep it relevant to the thread: yeah, he was a pretty damn good color commentator. The only problem I had with Holly's Tough Enough beatdown was the part where he reached his foot through the ropes to kick the dude right in the mouth. That was uncalled for and could've resulted in injury. Everything else? Meh. Chopping someone really really hard is not shooting on them, no matter how many indy worker pussies believe otherwise (I've seen an astounding number of occasions where some vet chopped the crap out of a guy he didn't like and acted afterwards like he'd done something really mean and impressive). I also object to the idea that he somehow "deserved" getting his neck broken against Brock, which is a depressingly common sentiment in the IWC. I don't think "Vader just liked working stiff, you could hit him back and he's fine with that" is totally accurate. Harley Race said (in his book, iirc) that Vader would have quit if someone had hit him as hard as he was hitting Cactus Jack in their matches. And there have certainly been incidents where you can tell that Vader's opponent is getting pissed off at the stiffness and starts lashing back; Flair at Starrcade 93 is the main example I think, but there are others.

I think it would've been roundabout 1986, iirc.

When you hate typical mainstream stuff but want everyone else to like it, usually we call that a "hipster". But yeah, I kinda understand what you mean. Whenever I attended a wrestling show, I never participated in any kind of crowd reaction. I just sat there and silently stared at the ring. Because, hey, that's what ya do when you have Aspergers. Have me as an official participant in the show, and I'm willing to do almost any stupid degrading bullshit in front of a large crowd of people; but as a guy who paid to get in, 1.I'm shy, and 2.I want them to entertain me and I never felt any joy at screaming or waving signs around or anything like that. But of course, the atmosphere would be completely fucking ruined if everyone acted like me.

!! indeed. He's pretty much got all of us beat, easily. But ah well, we must soldier on. My one big regret is also not a house show, but was an ECW on TNN tv taping. My girlfriend had some kind of weird fainting fit just as I was about to drive to the show, so I stayed with her to make sure she was okay (all the while silently cursing myself for not being a complete asshole and just driving to the show anyway). It turned out this show, the only time ECW ran anywhere near Nashville, was the one where Masato Tanaka won the belt off Mike Awesome. Motherfuck, man. And it also had all kinds of WAR-level goofy but fascinating mismatches in the undercard, like Wing Kanemura vs Tracy Smothers, RVD vs Mikey, and Ikuto Hidaka randomly showing up. AND a Tajiri/Crazy match! Practically every young indy worker in Nashville attended that show, and all of them raved for years about how it was the most awesome thing they'd ever seen live. I went to a WCW house show in 2000 for the same reason, and it was incredibly depressing. Flair didn't cut any promos, but he was in the main event... against Kevin Nash. Nash was even lazier than he was on TV at the time, moving like he was underwater and quite literally never taking a single bump. Babyface Flair was DQed for some stupid bullshit, and then the heels stomped on him for a minute and then everyone just walked to the back and the show ended. SHOW OVER. Drive home safely, everyone! Gee, why the fuck did WCW go out of business?!

That's not exactly a high bar to clear. The current WWE announcing is so hideously awful that you could easily find better announcers right here on this board. And I don't mean Naylor or myself, I mean that probably the vast majority of people on this forum could sit in Michael Cole's chair tomorrow and do an infinitely better job of not sabotaging the entire product by complaining about how much everything sucks on your own show.

I don't know if Joey just straight-up Butterbeaned the man, but by all accounts he knocked Layfield down on his ass and at least ended the fight right then and there. I just prefer to cling to my McFly/Biff version of events, because it's much funnier. Yeah. I still vividly remember a match where Bradshaw just beat the everliving shit out of poor D. Harry Smith, the sort of low-on-the-totem-pole guy who the office would frown upon if he stiffed JBL back. It went way beyond any possible excuses of working snug or whatever and into outright abuse. I've seen him do that a few times; why didn't he ever become more of a publicly-derided bully in the IWC, like Bob Holly did? Was it just that Tough Enough made such a huge deal out of that one Holly beatdown, but all of Bradshaw's liberties are taken in random little TV matches where nobody is really paying attention?

Maybe it's different when you're a kid; children can often be some bloodthirsty little sociopathic bastards. But first watching wrestling as a grown adult, the one thing which annoyed me the most was how ridiculously mean everyone was. (Yes, this was in 1999, whatta shock.) It's not just that the heroes were lousy role models, it was how they literally couldn't even walk into the same room with another person and not instantly get into a fight. If two guys happened to bump into each other in the hallway, it immediately turned into a die-you-dirty-motherfucker-die grudge feud. And I've never enjoyed babyfaces who act like egotistical pricks who are above the rules. When Rock is humiliating backstage announcers or Austin is Stunning helpless women, I absolutely don't understand the appeal.

Some of the British slang is that rhyming deal, where some random word stands for another word it kinda sounds like. "Twat" isn't that far from "swat", which is where I'd guess that particular usage of the word came from in this context.

You don't count his runs in Japan? His team with the Sheik, his feuds with Baba/Jumbo/Destroyer/Funks/etc, and so on. They were on top of most of the biggest AJPW shows for the decade of the 70s. Inoki was still impressed enough with his drawing ability as late as 1981 to steal him away from All Japan. He also drew plenty of money in other places. It seems like he main evented a ton of those big baseball-stadium shows in Puerto Rico over the years. I forget how WCCW was doing when he showed up in the mid-80s, but you'd probably assume that they did some decent business there. He's said to have been a huge attraction not just in Stampede, but in pretty much all of Canada from Montreal to Vancouver. Admittedly, part of Abby's drawing ability came from just not sticking around in the same places for very long. He'd usually do a tour or two and then be off to the next territory. But I don't think the travelling-attraction gimmick should be a mark against someone, not when it's a smart strategy and makes money.

How long was JYD's peak of drawing in Mid-South? No more than three or four years, max. (After that, he vanished into the WWF's black hole of talent where nobody but Hogan really mattered.) Abby easily has that beat with just his Japanese business, let alone counting all the stuff he did elsewhere.