World's Worst Man

I happen to think Otani from ~1995-~1998 was the the best junior ever. But Liger was super-great from about 1988 to 1998, so it's a matter of weighing the longevity along with the skill level. Does 3 years of being arguably the top junior wrestler ever outdue 10 years of being the second best? It's not unlike the way I think about Kawada and Jumbo, but Kawada did have more years of being unbelievably great than Otani did. In this case, I think Liger gets the edge. If Otani had 2-3 more years of peak performance, he'd be my #1.

I gotta hear more about the "lucha eyes" argument. I've seen some lucha fans use that argument when certain criticisms are levied against a match. Like if certain spots or falls are really contrived or if a match is just one giant spotfest with no direction or meaning. Basically they make it seem like those crticisms don't apply to lucha because "that's just the way lucha is". Which is nonsense, because that'd be like saying no-selling in NOAH is fine, because thats just the way NOAH is.

- What is your favorite singles match? Mitsuharu Misawa vs. Kenta Kobashi (1/20/97) Perhaps the best pure pro-wrestling match of all time. Great ending that got over how tough and spirited one guy is, without killing the believability of the match. - What is your favorite tag team (2 teams of 2) match? Kawada & Taue vs. Misawa & Kobashi (6/9/95) Incredible story telling to go along with incredible wrestling. What else is there? - What is your favorite multi-person (2 teams of 3 or more on each side) match? Mitsuharu Misawa & Hiroshi Hase & Toshiaki Kawada vs Kenta Kobashi & Akira Taue & Jun Akiyama (9/26/97) This was like a fun exhibition type match that eventually became more serious as it went along. It was also interesting to see Kawada and Misawa on the same team at that point. - What is your favorite type of wrestling? The type that combines story-telling with great wrestling, rather than story-telling and poor-wrestling or vice-versa. 90's AJPW and AJW would be at the top of my list. - What is your favorite angle of all time? The Ogawa vs. Hashimoto thing always fascinated me. It was just such a believable and well-executed angle, even if it probably stretched on longer than it needed to. - Who is a wrestler you found to like because of the internet? Too many to list. The internet is reponsible for me being exposed to ECW, US indy and Japese wrestling. - WCW or WWF 1996-1998? WCW. WWF was pretty good in 1997, but WCW was just firing on all cylinders at that point. And WWF in 1998 was just brutal. - Do you like Lucha Libre? Why? I like it, but I'm realistic about it. I don't ignore its flaws or dismiss them as being acceptable while using the "lucha eyes" excuse. But I like watching the style. - If you could book a "Super Show" card with 3 matches with a guarantee to draw a huge crowd and maintain monster heat the whole night, what would it be? Jushin Liger vs Shinjiro Otani (3/30/96) Hiroshi Hase vs Great Muta (12/14/92) Vader vs. Nobuhiko Takada (8/18/94)

I'm glad they're staying steady, and hopefully they build their audience through their PPVs. And how do they do that? Because their PPVs have been really good lately, while their TV shows have not. If they put out another strong effort, I think it will really win over anyone who was on the fence about the promotion. From there they need to start having tighter, well put together TV programming to go along with their excellent PPV product. Once they do that, I believe they'll really start building a bigger audience.

Tanahashi vs. Nagata wasn't as great as I'd been led to believe, but it was very good. The hijinx at the end of the match were really fun too

Nope. I'm going to try to replace all of the clipped stuff with the NJ Classics versions, since I believe they all air in full on that show.

Tell me about it. I got a big NJ junior comp from Lynch a few years ago. I realized too late that it was all coming from the shitty NJPW network TV show. For some of those matches, less than half was actually aired.

Only like 9:24 of 16:16 aired, so unless it's in full on a comm. tape somewhere, it's probably not worth going out of your way to see.

Are there any matches or shows I need to look out for with this guy on them because I have never heard anyone really sing his praises? As was mentioned earlier, the Tenzan G1 2004 Finals was just great. Tanahashi/Nakamura vs. Nagata/Tenzan 1/30/05 was really good. Makai Mask IV & Makai Mask V vs. Yutaka Yoshie & Hiroshi Tanahashi 7/9/03 was shockingly excellent. A bloodbath brawl in NJPW, wooha. Tanahashi vs. Nagata 4/19/05 (Round 1 of NJ Cup) was supposed to have been great. I can let you know for sure in about an hour or so, hehe.

It's gotta be Owen for me. Christian is a better interview, but that's it. Wrestling ability is no contest, and Owen played his character really, really well. I like Christian, and he got really dicked over by E this year, but Owen was the total package.

I second the love for Samoa Joe. The guy's just fantastic in the ring, and I really think he needs to get a shot at being the top gaijin with NOAH or NJPW. And to think, he's probably got another good 12-15 years in him. I really, really hope he gets a shot to be a big time player in a large promotion, while making tons of coin along the way. I also second the love for Tanahashi. He's terribly charismatic, and is fairly good in the ring despite not having a ton of experience. I'm liking Nakamura too, especially after the 1 hour Kojima draw. A guy with 2-3 years of pro wrestling experience had no business being in a 1 hour draw that was that good. Kenta Kobashi of course. The guy has no knees and is still a top 5 worker. He'll probably go down as a top 10 worker of all time when all is said and done. Just an incredible amount of pure wrestling ability and charisma. The only thing that annoys me, is the no-selling/fighting spirit goofiness that he helped pioneer. It's ironic, because when he's actually selling, he's one of the best sellers I've ever seen. But watching him wrestle is always greatly entertaining.

Well, All Japan is an interesting story for me. It's kind goes back a ways too. I was basically a nice little WWF mark back in 1998 or so. I really liked WCW too. Then I started wanting something more out of wrestling. And to be honest, at that point I wanted to see more moves and bigger spots. So what was the next logical step? ECW! Yes, I became a big ECW fan, and that never really changed, other than I became more "realistic" about the product as years went on. So after a year or so of ECW love, I started getting around in the wrestling community more, and was hearing about Japanese pro wrestling. I remembered seeing clips of it on WCW in the early 90's and realized that those promotions also had moves and spots I'd never seen before. So I started getting the standard starter stuff, J-Cup's and the big AJPW triple crown matches. This was when I first started to become a workrate fan, although the problem was that I thought all good wrestling was done in the slow build -> tons of near falls style (since that was the first "high quality wrestling" that I was really exposed to). This unfortunately led me to not appreciate other styles of wrestling nearly enough, but I was 15 at the time, so I have a good excuse Then I basically stopped watching wrestling for 3 and a half years, and then came back with a new perspective and a new appreciation for every style of wrestling. So originally, the main reason I liked AJPW was for all the big nearfalls and crowd heat at the end of the match. But now, I appreciate the smaller things, like struggling for moves, the selling, learned spots, playing off of past matches, and just general storytelling. I realized that the nearfalls and big moves themselves didn't make the match better, it was how they were built to and how they were worked into the match that counted. And I've yet to see any matches that combine all the elements of a good pro wrestling match, that were better than a certain handful of matches that AJPW put on in the 90's. Huzzah!

About Joshi and other promotions - There's also a big difference between saying you don't prefer something and saying that it's crappy wrestling. Most people who don't dig joshi are pretty good with that, they usually don't trash the wrestling, they just say they don't like it. With something like ROH, that doesn't seem to happen though. People say they aren't into the product, and then use it as justification for why the product sucks. If people aren't into a certain promotion for whatever reason, fine. But that reason in itself doesn't prove anything as far as whether or not the wrestling is good. And on the flip side, people don't need to get worked up about that either (and some do). Because like I said, there's a difference between someone not liking a promotion and someone saying the promotion sucks. Granted, I've been puzzled about why someone doesn't like a certain promotion or style, but I don't go and trash them because of it.

You brought up All Japan, so I won't mention that. WCW ~1991-1997 I really liked WCW in the early 90's. You had Vader running around killing guys, MVC and the Steiners tearing up the tag division, Liger having memorable matches with Pillman and a bunch of fun angles/stables, like the Dangerous Alliance feuding with various people. Then in 1995, the Macho vs. Flair feud was really good. This one doesn't get the credit that it's due, but this is what started WCW's turn around, and then obviously the NWO took it to another level. 1996-1997 everyone knows, the NWO at it's peak, with fantastic junior matches on the undercards. Just an all around great promotion at this point. ROH April 2004-December 2004 Probably the best run of high quality matches that's been seen since the mid-late 90's. The shows that didn't have MOTYCs usually had multiple good-very good matches, and then of course you had the 5 or 6 super strong MOTYCs. Just an unebelievable string of wrestling, with Samoa Joe in particular really maturing into a legitimately great worker. Dangerous A already mentioned New Japan, so I won't say anything more about that other than it was really, really friggen good. All around, they were better than All Japan, even if AJPW's best was better than NJPW's best.

Sadly, to some people it does mean you're a puro snob. But anyone who thinks like that doesn't deserve the time of day. It comes down to supportable opinions vs. unsupportable opinions. Just because someone says a supposedly "great" American match is only **1/2 doesn't make them a snob. If it's an opinion they can't support, then they're an idiot and probably are a snob. If it's an opinion they can support and no one else can debunk, well guess what? Their opinion is more valid than anyone else's. Too many people are content to play the "it's all subjective, every opinion is equal" game. Then they get angry when someone debunks their opinion with a solid argument. Then that usually leads to cries of snobbery and elitism. Or whines of "It's wrestling, don't be so negative and just enjoy it!!!" It's only snobbery if people put Japanese matches or wrestlers up on a pedestal, simply because it's Japanese, and when they can't support such claims. Just like it's fanboyism when people put WWE matches or wrestlers on a pedestal when they can't support such claims. There's quite a double standard actually. And as I said, it's completely fucking asinine to accuse someone of being a puroresu snob if they're clearly fans of more than just puroresu. Especially if their favourite promotions or wrestlers aren't based out of Japan. I mean seriously, how do some people justify such an opinion based on those facts? I'd have more respect for these morons if they just said "I'm anti-workrate fan." Then at least it's not completely illogical, even if it is a rather dickheaded stance to take. And to add - It comes down to this. Some people ARE fanboys or snobs of certain promotions or wrestlers. And ironically, that's where the cries of elitism come from. I've almost never seen people being accused of being an elitist just because they were talking about how good some match or wrestler was. It almost always comes after some negative comment. "WWE sucks" "AJ Styles is spotty" "Kurt Angle is overrated" etc. People get offended by the comments, and then look for ways to dismiss the comments without having to view them as legitimate critiques. "You're just saying that because you're a puroresu snob". It reeks of desperation and ignorance.

These days, it seems to be ROH and their smarky fans. At least there's one thing that puroresu snobs and WWE fanboys have in common, their total disdain for ROH.

The puro elitist thing is generally something that fans of US Wrestling (usually WWE exclusively) like to come up with to justify the negativity that gets levied against certain promotions or wrestlers. And actually, this happens among puroresu fans too, where it becomes a question of promotional loyalties. People are "New Japan marks" or "NOAH marks". Granted, there are fans who are blindly loyal to certain promotions. But the ironic thing, is that it happens more often with WWE and ROH, rather than any Japanese promotion. But generally, most people bring up the bias card in completely unnecessary situations. It seems like they think it's easier to just dismiss an opinion because it's "biased", rather than addressing the points and presenting an intelligent, plausible argument in return. These people really aren't worth the time of day. The current US Indy scene, along with certain periods of mainstream US wrestling have gone a long way to really seperate who's biased towards certain styles and promotions and who's not. Most fans of Japanese pro wrestling also enjoy ROH and other various indies, along with early-mid 90's WCW, and other various periods of US prowrestling. (And I really mean most, I only know of a very small percentage of people who actually refuse to give props to non-Japanese or non-Mexican wrestling) So, to the intelligent observer, this would imply that most of these fans are simply interested in good in-ring wrestling, regardless of where it comes from. To the intelligent observer though. We all know that there's quite a few people who don't fit that criteria, so you continue to have cries of elitism or bias at the drop of a hat.

Rave carried AJ? You're obviously a puro nerd~! I'm almost at that show in my ROH watching, I'll be looking forward to it. I think Joe vs. Styles might be a bit hard to beat though

Mm hmm. Like in typical puro-snob tradition I gave props to SAMOA JOE for carrying Daniels and Styles. Not to mention giving praise to Roderick Strong and Austin Aries. Why don't you just quit now before you really make an ass of yourself? The terrible logic here is mind-numbing.

Woo, here comes the puro mark card. That is so 1999. Nice try, but it makes you look like a giant idiot, especially if I was to say something like "I think Samoa Joe and Bryan Danielson are 2 of the top 5 workers in the world". I guess it's just easier to throw around the bias card, rather than intelligently debating anything. Then again, there is no intelligent argument that Styles isn't a spotty worker, so I guess I understand your desperation. But hey, if you want to dismiss the argument that Styles is a spot-whore just because those people might be Japanese wrestling fans, so be it. Whatever helps you sleep at night.

How is is stupid when it's the truth? He doesn't structure a match well, and his pacing sucks. What should I call him then? A world class worker? It's fairly obvious that he likes to roll out the spots for no rhyme or reason. What would be "beyond stupid", is not realizing that, given how obvious it is. And it doesn't mean he sucks, it just means that he's not very good.

He's just a spot monkey. The only close to great matches I've seen him in was when he was being carried by Joe. He's certainly not an elite worker, but a lot of masturbatory, spot-fest wrestlers are always being propped up as elite workers by the internet (see Angle, Kurt). I'll say that Daniels is easily better in the ring than Christian or Booker T though. Ditto for Aries and Strong (although they aren't really "TNA guys"). Styles might be slightly better. But what have those 2 ever done in the ring? Christian has tons of charisma and is more of a total package than those guys, but neither of them are exactly good workers. They're more like above average. Daniels/Roderick/Aries' body of work kills those 2 guys. It's not even close. And while you could say that Christian and Booker T are just being screwed over by the lame WWE style, I'll go on record as saying I doubt either would be tearing it up with the shackles off either. TNA's TV really sucks. It's no better, or worse, than your typical RAW or Smackdown. Lately, TNA's PPVs kill WWE's though. From a match quality standpoint, Unbreakable and Sacrifice were at least even with WMXXI. And that's WWE's big show. Nevermind the smaller, crappier PPVs they've been putting on. Mind you, that can be directly attributed to one man. If Joe wasn't around, Styles and Daniels don't have those matches, and TNA is left with typical spotty spot spot-spot. Instead of having close to **** matches near the top, they're left with maybe one *** match on the undercard. Such is the advantage of having a top 3 worker with the shackles off I guess. But ROH really deserves the credit for Joe, not TNA.

Because "wrestling" is just the acrobatics of it and psychology is the story the match is trying to communicate to the audience. It's impossible to have a bad wrestling match with good psychology, or a good wrestling match with bad psychology, at least from my point of view. I should have been more specific, because I meant to say story as opposed to psychology, because psychology covers too much ground, like selling, timing, etc. So lets just assume I'm talking about the story/match structure. But the wrestling execution is important anyway. How much does a face-beatdown segment mean if the heels are using weak and pathetic looking offense? What about if when the face makes the big comeback, he's botching moves and looking like he couldn't crack en egg? It ruins the illusion. I always thought the point of looking at matches with a critical eye, and giving them ratings, was done to give an objective look at the entire match, not just one part of it. Otherwise we're no different than marks who sit in the crowd and pop for face comebacks or heel beatdowns without actually looking at what's being done to get those stories across.

Ricky Steamboat/Junkyard Dog vs. Don Muraco/Mr. Fuji (8/17/85) - This was a fine example of a match that is structured well, but sucks because the work itself is awful. JYD and Fuji are just terrible. JYD can't even run the ropes here, and he also botches a simple lariat spot. Fuji's pathetic offense really ruins the heat segment on Steamboat. If a match has great wrestling, but no psychology, people call it a spotfest and rate it low. So why should a match with good psychology and god-awful wrestling be praised? Bottom 10-15 match.