Loss

Face in peril is the best formula in wrestling history. It has produced more great matches than any other formula in wrestling history. Great wrestlers can do great things with it, and sometimes very limited wrestlers can do decent things with it too. There's no reason to fix it or abandon it. It works.

I have decided that I want a Tumblr feed of Shawn interrupting people throughout history at completely inappropriate times to make a point about doing jobs. Someone with mad Photoshop skills and a warped sense of humor, make this happen!

WWF in Q1: JANUARY Bob Backlund and fans/Show opening (WWF Shotgun 01/04/97) Brother Love & Sisters of Love interview (WWF Shotgun 01/04/97) Owen Hart vs Mankind (WWF Monday Night RAW 01/06/97) Sid + Shawn Michaels/Bret Hart vs Vader (WWF Monday Night RAW 01/06/97) Fondle Me Elmo (WWF Shotgun 01/11/97) Vince announces Goldust is pregnant (WWF Shotgun 01/11/97) Bret Hart vs The Sultan (WWF Superstars 01/12/97) (Finish only) Shawn Michaels House Party (WWF Monday Night RAW 01/13/97) Davey Boy Smith vs Rocky Maivia (WWF Monday Night RAW 01/13/97) (Finish only) Steve Austin + Terry Funk (WWF Shotgun 01/18/97) Steve Austin vs Goldust (WWF Shotgun 01/18/97) Royal Rumble (WWF Royal Rumble 01/19/97) (Finish only) Shawn Michaels vs Sid (WWF Royal Rumble 01/19/97) (Finish only) Bret Hart + Steve Austin (WWF Monday Night RAW 01/20/97) Gorilla Monsoon + Steve Austin + Bret Hart (WWF Monday Night RAW 01/20/97) Steve Austin vs Undertaker (WWF Monday Night RAW 01/20/97) Bret Hart vs Mankind (WWF Shotgun 01/25/97) Shawn Michaels + Bret Hart + Undertaker + Steve Austin (WWF Monday Night RAW 01/27/97) FEBRUARY Steve Austin vs Vader (WWF RAW 02/03/97) Shawn Michaels + Bret Hart + Steve Austin + Sid (WWF RAW 02/03/97) Undertaker vs Hunter Hearst Helmsley (WWF Shotgun 02/08/97) Steve Austin vs Vader (WWF Superstars 02/09/97) Rocky Maivia vs Hunter Hearst Helmsley (WWF Thursday RAW Thursday 02/13/97) (Finish only) Shawn Michaels loses his smile (WWF Thursday RAW Thursday 02/13/97) Steve Austin vs Sid (WWF Thursday RAW Thursday 02/13/97) (Finish only) Bret Hart vs Undertaker vs Vader vs Steve Austin (WWF Final Four 02/16/97) Hunter Hearst Helmsley & That Huge Amazon + Goldust & Marlena (WWF RAW 02/17/97) Jerry Lawler + Paul Heyman (WWF RAW 02/17/97) DURING OWEN HART VS FLASH FUNK, BY PHONE Bret Hart vs Sid (WWF RAW 02/17/97) Steven Regal vs Prince Iaukea (WWF RAW 02/17/97) (Finish only) Davey Boy Smith vs Crush (WWF Shotgun 02/22/97) (Finish only) DBS FIRES CORNETTE Stevie Richards vs Little Guido (WWF RAW 02/24/97) Taz vs Mikey Whipwreck (WWF RAW 02/24/97) Legion of Doom vs Headbangers (WWF RAW 02/24/97) Shawn Michaels music video (WWF RAW 02/24/97) Tommy Dreamer vs D-Von Dudley (WWF RAW 02/24/97) MARCH Mankind promo (WWF Monday Night RAW 03/03/97) IN GERMAN Steve Austin interview (WWF Monday Night RAW 03/03/97) Owen Hart vs Davey Boy Smith (WWF Monday Night RAW 03/03/97) New opening (WWF RAW 03/10/97) Ken Shamrock + Steve Austin + Bret Hart (WWF RAW 03/10/97) Jerry Lawler + Paul E. Dangerously (WWF RAW 03/10/97) Mini Goldust & Mascarita Sagrada Jr. vs Mini Vader & Mini Mankind (WWF Monday Night RAW 03/17/97) Bret Hart interview (WWF Monday Night RAW 03/17/97) Shawn Michaels interview (WWF Monday Night RAW 03/17/97) Bret Hart vs Sid (WWF Monday Night RAW 03/17/97, Cage match) Bret Hart vs Steve Austin (WWF Wrestlemania XIII 03/23/97, I Quit match) Legion of Doom & Ahmed Johnson vs Faarooq, Savio Vega & Crush (WWF Wrestlemania XIII 03/23/97, Street Fight) Undertaker vs Sid (WWF Wrestlemania XIII 03/23/97) BRET AT BEGINNING AND FINISH ONLY Owen Hart & Davey Boy Smith vs Headbangers (WWF RAW 03/24/97) (Finish only) Bret Hart + Shawn Michaels (WWF RAW 03/24/97) Rocky Maivia vs Leif Cassidy (WWF RAW 03/24/97) (Finish only) Owen Hart vs Davey Boy Smith (WWF RAW 03/31/97) Undertaker + Mankind (WWF RAW 03/31/97) FIREBALL - EDIT THE PROMO WHERE NEEDED Steve Austin interview (WWF RAW 03/31/97) Bret Hart vs Rocky Maivia (WWF RAW 03/31/97)

There's A LOT of stuff to whittle down on this set, so I thought I'd try crowdsourcing as much of the cuts as possible. Here is a preliminary list of everything for the first three months of WCW. If you have additions, please include them, but if there's anything you think is an easy cut, please say so. Thanks. JANUARY NWO + The Giant + Sting (WCW Monday Nitro 01/06/97) Steven Regal vs Psicosis (WCW Saturday Night 01/11/97) DDP + The Outsiders (WCW Monday Nitro 01/13/97) Eddy Guerrero vs Dean Malenko (WCW Monday Nitro 01/13/97) Wolfpac promo (WCW Monday Nitro 01/13/97) Hulk Hogan vs The Giant (WCW Monday Nitro 01/13/97) Steven Regal vs Psicosis (WCW Saturday Night 01/18/97) Eddy Guerrero vs Syxx (WCW Saturday Night 01/18/97) Randy Savage returns (WCW Monday Nitro 01/20/97) CHAVO/STING Eric Bischoff promo (WCW Monday Nitro 01/20/97) Hulk Hogan interview (WCW Monday Nitro 01/20/97) Ultimo Dragon vs Dean Malenko (WCW Clash of the Champions XXXIV 01/21/97) Chris Benoit vs Kevin Sullivan (WCW Clash of the Champions XXXIV 01/21/97, Falls Count Anywhere) (Finish only) Lex Luger vs Scott Hall (WCW Clash of the Champions XXXIV 01/21/97) (Finish only) Randy Anderson + NWO (WCW Monday Nitro 01/27/97) Hulk Hogan interview (WCW Monday Nitro 01/27/97) Hulk Hogan vs The Giant (WCW Monday Nitro 01/27/97) (Finish only) FEBRUARY Randy Anderson + NWO (WCW Monday Nitro 01/27/97) Hulk Hogan interview (WCW Monday Nitro 01/27/97) Hulk Hogan vs The Giant (WCW Monday Nitro 01/27/97) (Finish only) DDP + Sting & Randy Savage (WCW Monday Nitro 02/10/97) NWO + Randy Anderson (WCW Monday Nitro 02/10/97) Hulk Hogan + Roddy Piper (WCW Monday Nitro 02/10/97) Randy Anderson vs Nick Patrick (WCW Monday Nitro 02/17/97) NWO + Steiners vignette (WCW Monday Nitro 02/17/97) Eric Bischoff + Lex Luger & The Giant (WCW Monday Nitro 02/17/97) Roddy Piper at Alcatraz (WCW Monday Nitro 02/17/97) Hulk Hogan interview (WCW Monday Nitro 02/17/97) Dean Malenko vs Syxx (WCW SuperBrawl VII 02/23/97) (Finish only) Lex Luger & The Giant vs Scott Hall & Kevin Nash (WCW SuperBrawl VII 02/23/97) (Finish only) Hulk Hogan vs Roddy Piper (WCW SuperBrawl VII 02/23/97) (Finish only) Eddy Guerrero & Chris Jericho vs Faces of Fear (WCW Monday Nitro 02/24/97) LOTS OF RECOMMENDATIONS Rey Misterio Jr vs Juventud Guerrera (WCW Monday Nitro 02/24/97) Ultimo Dragon vs Dean Malenko (WCW Monday Nitro 02/24/97) Diamond Dallas Page vs Dave Taylor (WCW Monday Nitro 02/24/97) (Finish only) NWO interview (WCW Monday Nitro 02/24/97) Lex Luger & The Giant vs Harlem Heat (WCW Monday Nitro 02/24/97) MARCH Eric Bischoff + Harvey Schiller (WCW Monday Nitro 03/03/97) Roddy Piper tryouts (WCW Monday Nitro 03/03/97) NWO interview (WCW Monday Nitro 03/03/97) Roddy Piper + Four Horsemen (WCW Monday Nitro 03/10/97) NWO interview (WCW Monday Nitro 03/10/97) Eddy Guerrero vs Dean Malenko (WCW Uncensored 03/16/97, No DQ) Diamond Dallas Page + Randy Savage (WCW Uncensored 03/16/97) NWO interview (WCW Uncensored 03/16/97) Hulk Hogan, Randy Savage, Scott Hall & Kevin Nash vs Lex Luger, The Giant & Scott Steiner vs Roddy Piper, Chris Benoit, Steve McMichael & Jeff Jarrett (WCW Uncensored 03/16/97, Elimination match) Hulk Hogan + Dennis Rodman (WCW Monday Nitro 03/17/97) Randy Savage vs Prince Iaukea (WCW Monday Nitro 03/24/97) (Finish only) Ric Flair + Roddy Piper (WCW Monday Nitro 03/31/97) Randy Savage + Diamond Dallas Page (WCW Monday Nitro 03/31/97) Kevin Nash and Syxx (WCW Monday Nitro 03/31/97) Posting the first three months of WWF in a separate post.

Only at Pro Wrestling Only could this be a conversation.

Part of it is that the WWF writes for casual fans. They don't want anyone to not watch because they don't have an understanding of what's going on, so I don't fault them for keeping it simple, and that approach has paid off to great results over the years. On a personal level, I tend to like forms of entertainment where patience is rewarded and they give nods to people who remember things from a long time ago. That's more important in some styles of wrestling than others. But when I see people teaming who were feuding two months (really, even a year or more) ago and it's not referenced or explained, it takes me out of the moment. I don't expect WWE to change what they are to suit me, and I get why long-term continuity is not a priority for them. It might alienate people who just want to catch the biggest shows. I just especially appreciate those moments when they give a nod to people with long memories, Savage/Warrior being one of them.

Savage/Warrior isn't a great match like Flair/Steamboat is a great match. Flair/Steamboat is a great match "in the traditional sense". Relatively clean, feels like an athletic competition, and good matwork or mechanics is what I mean. Some bad matches are traditional and some great matches are not, and vice versa. There's no bias behind that statement.

I'd say that's right. It wouldn't have fit in in most of the other 80s territories, and no way is WCW smart enough to create that kind of moment. Just to be clear, I agree that the match on its own without the post-match angle, without the story of redemption, without Savage's career at stake, without the crazy heat -- yeah, I can see not liking it. Savage was working the match hurt, and you could argue from an actual wrestling standpoint that Sherri was the best performer in the match. Strip away the setting and atmosphere and it's not fundamentally a very good wrestling match at all. But I can't divorce all of those things here. They are too important. You could point to plenty of heated matches that are not so good in WWF history, but what makes this stand out is that the heat is not 100% the result of having over wrestlers meeting in a Clash of the Titans-like setting, like Hogan/Andre. It's the result of the story itself being compelling, not just because stars happen to be in the ring. Add to that that I'm a sucker for anything that plays out long-term in wrestling, with call backs and continuity. Wrestling that rewards people who remember is my kind of wrestling. It's certainly not a classic match in the traditional sense, but it's quite possibly the best half hour in the history of the WW(W)/F/E.

So it would be cool if this thread could now get to a point where we are listing specific matches with dates instead of being a "Wait-I-thought-this-happened-no-it-was-this"-type thread.

But you were watching wrestling when Randy Savage and Elizabeth as a pairing were such a hot gimmick. Is more than that needed to "get" the emotion of that moment?

The worst thing about that is Shawn making a big production of a doing a job on a tribute show to Eddy Guerrero, the day after he was found dead in his hotel room. I know your friend just died, but I want you to know how big of a deal it is for me to do this job for you? I wouldn't do it for just anyone? Really? And Shawn getting his win back in the team match at Survivor Series when someone else could have pinned Rey if Team Raw was going to win was a clear case of him getting the "favor" returned. Stay classy, Shawn.

You are not being hyperbolic in the slightest. I really think Buddy Landell's promo in the build to Superbowl of Wrestling is a GOAT candidate.

Any '99 lucha missing? Anything that should be here not here? Is there no AAA from '99 that should go on? 01/22/99 - Atlantis, Emilio Charles Jr. & Felino vs Black Warrior, Blue Panther & Dr. Wagner Jr. (CMLL) 02/24/99 - Tsubasa & Oriental vs Ultimo Guerrero & Virus (CMLL) 03/12/99 - Oriental vs Virus (CMLL) 03/16/99 - Shocker vs Black Warrior (CMLL) 03/19/99 - El Hijo del Santo & Negro Casas vs Bestia Salvaje & Scorpio Jr. (CMLL) 05/14/99 - Ultimo Guerrero, Violencia, Rey Bucanero, Black Warrior & Fuerza Guerrera vs Tarzan Boy, Zorro, Pantera, Olimpico & Tony Rivera 05/16/99 - Mike Segura vs Shiima Nobunaga (IWRG) 05/21/99 - Ultimo Guerrero vs Great Sasuke (CMLL) 08/15/99 - Arkangel, Zumbido & Ultimo Guerrero vs Solar, Oriental & Mr. Niebla (CMLL) 09/10/99 - Mr. Aguila, Antifaz Del Norte & Tony Rivera vs Violencia, Rey Bucanero & Zumbido (CMLL) 09/10/99 - El Hijo del Santo, Emilio Charles Jr., Negro Casas & Olimpico vs Black Warrior, Blue Panther, Dr. Wagner Jr. & Ultimo Guerrero (CMLL) 09/17/99 - El Hijo del Santo & Negro Casas vs Dr. Wagner Jr. & Blue Panther (CMLL) 09/24/99 - Shocker & Mr. Niebla vs Villano III & Atlantis (CMLL) 11/??/99 - Jushin Liger vs Shocker (CMLL) 11/26/99 - El Hijo del Santo, Antifaz del Norte, Olimpico, Tarzan Boy, Tony Rivera, Felino, Negro Casas & Emilio Charles Jr vs Rey Bucanero, Ultimo Guerrero, Black Warrior, El Satanico, Bestia Salvaje, Blue Panther, Fuerza Guerrera & Zumbido (CMLL)

Is this all of the essential All Japan for 2002? And is everything really essential? 02/24/02 - Genichiro Tenryu vs Satoshi Kojima 02/24/02 - Keiji Muto vs Toshiaki Kawada 04/01/02 - Genichiro Tenryu vs Keiji Muto 04/13/02 - Arashi/Araya vs Nagai/Okumura 04/13/02 - Satoshi Kojima vs Taiyo Kea 04/13/02 - Genichiro Tenryu vs Keiji Muto 07/20/02 - Genichiro Tenryu vs Taiyo Kea 08/30/02 - Kaz Hayashi vs Jimmy Yang 08/30/02 - Keiji Muto vs Taiyo Kea 08/30/02 - Genichiro Tenryu vs Hiroshi Hase 08/31/02 - Maasaki Mochizuki, Dragon Kid & Jimmy Yang vs Magnum Tokyo, Yokosuka & Darkness 10/27/02 - Satoshi Kojima vs Hiroshi Hase 10/27/02 - Great Muta vs Genichiro Tenryu 12/06/02 - Satoshi Kojima & Taiyo Kea vs Shinjiro Otani & Masato Tanaka

How's this for 2001 All Japan? Does everything here need to go on? Is anything missing? 04/14/01 - Keiji Muto vs Toshiaki Kawada 06/08/01 - Masahito Kakihara & Mitsuya Nagai vs Yuji Nagata & Shinya Makabe 06/08/01 - Keiji Muto vs Genichiro Tenryu 06/08/01 - Toshiaki Kawada vs Hiroyoshi Tenzan 07/14/01 - Keiji Muto vs Steve Williams

How is this for 2000 All Japan? Does everything have a place and is anything missing? 01/17/00 - Toshiaki Kawada vs Kenta Kobashi 01/23/00 - Vader vs Jun Akiyama 02/17/00 - Vader vs Toshiaki Kawada 02/17/00 - Mitsuharu Misawa vs Akira Taue 02/20/00 - Vader & Steve Williams vs Kenta Kobashi & Jun Akiyama 02/27/00 - Mitsuharu Misawa vs Jun Akiyama 02/27/00 - Vader vs Kenta Kobashi 03/31/00 - Mitsuharu Misawa vs Toshiaki Kawada 04/15/00 - Kenta Kobashi vs Takao Omori 10/28/00 - Toshiaki Kawada vs Genichiro Tenryu Was there any type of press conference or anything that actually aired on TV about the split? I'd like to somehow make it clear in televised format that it happened.

Even if it doesn't hold up, Lorefice giving a match ****3/4 makes it a lock. That said, I think we did an excellent job representing Joshi on this set. We made less cuts than we have on any set so far.

Rep.

I was scared of the Horsemen as a kid, and dreamed that Barry Windham turned into an alligator while walking to the ring and tried to eat Sting and Lex Luger. I was 8 at the time. No other wrestling dreams.

It may not be remembered as well, but so what? Taken together, it's an incredible moment, maybe the most substantive and genuinely emotional in the history of the company. Randy Savage gains the world by losing everything.

When did it happen?

How's this for a lucha list? 01/09/98 - Mr. Aguila, Shiryu & Venum Black vs Colt, Jurassico & Super Crazy (Promo Azteca) 01/30/98 - Mr. Aguila, Pantera, Salsero & Venum Black vs Juventud Guerrera, Mosco De La Merced, Pantera Del Ring & Super Crazy (Promo Azteca) 02/06/98 - Mr. Niebla & Shocker vs Dr. Wagner Jr. & Emilio Charles Jr. (CMLL) 02/15/98 - El Hijo del Santo, Super Porky & Atlantico vs Misterioso, Poison & Impacto (WPW) 02/20/98 - Elektra, Super Calo, Super Muneco & Venum Black vs El Texano, Mosco De La Merced, Pantera Del Ring & Super Crazy (Promo Azteca) 03/01/98 - Coco Amarillo, Coco Azul, Coco Negro & Coco Rojo vs Histeria, Maniaco, Mosco De La Merced & Psicosis (AAA) 03/08/98 - El Hijo del Santo vs Felino (Monterrey) 03/10/98 - Shocker vs Black Warrior (CMLL) 03/13/98 - El Hijo del Santo & La Parka vs Psicosis & Villano V (Tijuana) 03/21/98 - Violencia, Rey Bucanero Jr & Black Warrior vs Kendo, Tsubasa & Shiryu (IWRG) 03/31/98 - Akuma, Angel Azteca, Brandon, Chicago Express, Mascara Magica, Rey Bucanero & Ultimo Guerrero vs Fantasma, Guerrero De La Muerte, Olimpico, Ringo Mendoza, Sendero, Valentin Mayo & Zumbido (CMLL) 04/24/98 - Atlantis, Mr. Niebla & Negro Casas vs El Hijo del Santo, Black Warrior & Blue Panther (CMLL) 05/01/98 - Apolo Chino, Kid Guzman, Olimpico, Oriental, Sagrada, Valentin Mayo & Zumbido vs Arkangel, Brandon, Damiancito El Guerrero, Guerrero De La Muerte, Pepe Aguayo, Rencor Latino & Ultraman Jr. (CMLL) 05/01/98 - Atlantis, Emilio Charles Jr & Ultimo Dragon vs Blue Panther, Dr. Wagner Jr. & El Hijo del Santo (CMLL) 05/22/98 - Dragon Kid, Magnum Tokyo & Saito vs Sumo Fuji, Judo Suwa & Shiima Nobunaga (IWRG) 06/05/98 - Octagoncito vs Mini Abismo Negro (AAA) 06/12/98 - El Hijo del Santo, Felino & Mascara Sagrada vs Blue Panther, Dr. Wagner Jr. & Psicosis (Mora) 06/13/98 - El Hijo del Santo, Felino & Super Astro vs Blue Panther, Dr. Wagner Jr. & Principe Joel (WPW) 06/19/98 - Violencia, Karloff Lagarde Jr. & El Hijo del Santo vs Tony Rivera, Shocker & Felino (CMLL) 07/03/98 - Mr. Aguila, Olimpico & Pantera vs Rey Bucanero, Ultimo Guerrero & Zumbido (CMLL) 08/24/98 - El Hijo del Santo, Atlantis, Lizmark Jr, Mr. Niebla & Ultraman Jr. vs Satanico, Pirata Morgan, Black Warrior, Rey Bucanero & Arkangel De La Muerte (CMLL Japan) 08/28/98 - El Hijo del Santo & Blue Panther vs Dr. Wagner Jr. & Misterioso (WPW) 11/03/98 - Astro Rey Jr., Oriental, Tajiri & Tony Rivera vs Karloff Lagarde Jr., Ultimo Guerrero, Violencia & Zumbido (CMLL) 11/15/98 - Charly Manson, May Flowers, Nygma, Picudo & Sangre Chicana vs Cibernetico, Histeria, Maniaco, Mosco De La Merced & Psicosis (AAA) 12/11/98 - Silver King, Villano III & Villano IV vs El Hijo del Santo, Negro Casas & Felino (CMLL) 12/18/98 - El Hijo del Santo, Felino & Negro Casas vs Silver King, Villano IV & V (AAA)

Talk about your favorite live wrestling experiences ever here. The more anecdotal, the better!

I think it's more that they have in one guy both the supreme sinner and supreme saint. To the people who boo him now, he's already a heel, so a traditional turn would just alienate those who have kept the faith. Then, the question is if they would generate enough excitement for those who hate him already to make it worthwhile. I think Cena turning heel is their trump card, and they're hanging on to it as long as possible. Whenever they play it, I think it will work, but I understand them not wanting to take that leap until they have a red hot babyface to go against him. Cena against Rey, Punk, Orton, Zach Ryder and whoever else would all be fun programs, but for an angle that big, you almost need something bigger than just a fun feud that would produce good matches and a fresh dynamic. You kinda want something more significant and landscape changing than just a few fresh feuds. You'll never go broke betting against WWE playing something out to its full potential, but they may be smarter than we give them credit for in how they are using Cena now. If they really hate it so much when he's booed, why is he almost always programmed against other babyfaces, hometown heroes, returning stars and "cool" heels?