Loss

Don't know about Takada, but Dave has absolutely called Toyota a GOAT contender. When HHH had a line on Raw saying Shawn was one of the three greatest wrestlers of all time back in '04, Dave said he obviously hadn't seen much Tsuruta, Kobashi or Toyota. Also, Dave doesn't even agree with the concept of re-watching and changing opinions. He sees no value in it, as he has explained many times, because all that matters is what was considered good at the time, because wrestlers don't make matches for future audiences to watch. My counter argument to that is regardless of styles changing all the time, what makes wrestling good or bad never really changes at all.

Generally positive from what I can tell. It's his 90s that seems to have taken the biggest hit.

Interesting thread, and I have waaaay too much to say in response to some things posted. I agree with the general sentiment, but I don't think that there are more GOAT contenders. There has been some shuffling of the deck, and a pretty big discovery of more great wrestlers that were pretty much never talked about, which is awesome. But I think increasing the GOAT contenders may be overstating it. I do think it would be much easier to do a top 100 list now than it was in 2006 or 2007, whenever it was that the Smarkschoice poll was done. Many people -- Goodhelmet stands out only because we went round and round about it so many times -- said they would only submit a ballot of 50 wrestlers because they didn't think 100 wrestlers could be qualified as great. I suspect some of those people who have paid attention to the newly available footage the last few years would approach that differently now. But as evidenced in this thread, sometimes the discussion is a semantics argument over what it means to be great, which to me always felt like a waste of time, but I respect that others can and do see it differently. This is where I absolutely agree that there are more GOAT contenders. If you recall, when the El Dandy love started, you had many people jumping on the bandwagon, but most of them thought it was an ironic Snitsky-like thing, I think. More lucha footage is available now, so it's easier to form opinions on some of the premier guys and compare them with American wrestlers, which is a great thing. I also feel like this is worth mentioning, as something that is in some ways disappointing, yet no less true. I would say most wrestling fans decided a long time ago who they like and who they don't, and very little has changed. I don't think that's the case as much as it used to be. Ever year that passes is a year when Dave Meltzer's opinions are seen less as coming down from a mountain. His old opinions still provide value, but more as a reference point to see what the consensus was at the time, and Dave was the tastemaker. God bless him for that. Otherwise, it would be hard to figure out where to even start. But going back to my point, the eye opening has taken place with a subculture (DVDVR, WKO, Smarkschoice, here) of a subculture (Internet wrestling fans) of a subculture (wrestling fans). I wish it went beyond that, but I'd expect you wouldn't find many too people praising El Dandy or Fujiwara at the F4W or Torch boards unless they also post at one of the other places. I know more attention is paid to heavyweights, but I think opinions are still generally positive of guys like Liger. Tiger Mask and Dynamite Kid have taken a beating. The flaws in the NJ juniors style have definitely been discussed more for sure. Sadly, I think the pendulum has swung too far in the opposite direction at times, because guys like Ultimo Dragon and Shinjiro Otani (and El Samurai, who is perhaps the most overlooked great wrestler of all the Japanese guys) have lost some spotlight that they deserve. I'm not sure what the cause of that has been. The easy answer would be to blame Segunda Caida for hating on things like Dragon Gate, but that's really short-sighted, because they talk about and praise matches involving those guys from this time period. Maybe it's because so many people were turned on to wrestling in Japan through the J-Cups that they think the wrestlers are old news. It's hard to say. I understand the need to seek new thoughts, but this ties into something I'll talk about more when I get to Ohtani's Jacket's quote that really stuck out to me. I'm surprised to hear you say this, because you always strike me as "Oh, so this isn't liked anymore, when did THAT happen?" guy. Maybe that's unfair, I don't know. Luckily, I don't see much of the guy who always did that the most anymore -- one Mike Oles. This a thousand times. Not so much for the Joshi point, although I do agree with that, but more that new evaluations don't always lead to new truth. Praising Joshi wrestlers isn't really at the foreground of wrestling discussion these days, but that has nothing to do with the careers they all had. Having a better career and being more talented are two different things. I think what bugs people about Takada is his lack of emotion. It bugs me. That said, I'm not sure why I have no problem with Misawa's stoicism, but Takada's annoys me. Both are key players who the wrestling scene in Japan would be drastically different without, both are great wrestlers, both are highly regarded. All I know is that Takayama, Hashimoto and Tenryu outworked Takada in their big matches against each other in '96, and Misawa's big matches feel much more even. Maybe I just answered my own question. Possibly, but key lucha guys are very much in contention on this list now. I'm with you on the others, although there are probably guys like Tenryu whose stock have improved vastly in the past few years who I wouldn't say has a better argument than the guys you listed, but I think he's at that level. So I'm talking in circles and now I guess I am agreeing with Dylan when I thought I didn't at first. (1) This is not true. Quite a few guys have walked through Lawler's varied offense many times. (2) Bret is a guy who I can't believe is still in this discussion. He was a great WWF-style main eventer, but when seeing him in the context of the wrestling world at large, he loses something. I see this, but I also worry that the end result is that it bleeds over into opinions about the wrestlers themselves. Jumbo and Kawada being talked about in a GOAT context may bore you, but I think allowing that to limit their case is unfair. It's not any wrestler's fault how much they're talked about years later. And new opinions aren't always better opinions. They are more interesting to read sometimes, but that's a statement about a message board poster, not a wrestler. I think it's important to not let emphasis on being original impact matches or wrestlers themselves. Sometimes I see a match I like and do a lousy job of explaining what I liked about it without talking about it in generalities. That's not a reflection on the match. That's a reflection on me. I don't know that I understand what this means. Less important to whom? What are you saying? I have praised quite a few of the NJ juniors match in the '96 yearbook forum. There's something to this. That said: (1) This is a topic that seems to be focused on in-ring above all. (2) People may not have expected Hogan to be master technician, but I think there was still expectation that his matches would provide certain things. Had they not provided those things, Hogan would not have been a success. The reason I mention this is because you can point to guys like Hogan, the Road Warriors, Goldberg, etc., but those are guys who got over for what they did in the ring, even if they weren't great wrestlers in the technical sense. Their charisma and physical appearance helped also, but these are guys who if they spent 90% of their matches selling would not have been stars. I only mention that because of the mindset I see sometimes that what happens bell-to-bell doesn't matter. I strongly agree with this. Were you assholes? Possibly at times, but for the most part, probably not. But stuff like "Destroyer/Mascaras is better than any Flair match ever" (Which I don't recall you saying, but I did see) did irk people. Chris Coey listing 40 wrestlers better than Flair did irk people, which I seem to remember happening at tOA. Frank Jewett talking about how the problem with Flair was that he didn't add a DDT to his arsenal made him seem like someone who only cared about the mechanics of wrestling and nothing more. (I think you and Frank may have at times misunderstood the MOVES~! criticism toward him. It was never about Frank only caring about wrestlers who did big spots as much as it was that Frank would say things like that all one needed to be NWA champ was a nice vertical suplex, completely ignoring every other factor that one needed to be an NWA champ. ) Fairly or not, I think any praise of guys like Jumbo, Backlund or Destroyer was instinctively seen by some as an agenda to make people think less of Ric Flair that was somehow tied to your falling out with Dave Meltzer. That sounds even dumber to me in hindsight than it did at the time. Like we all (self included) do with wrestling in general, we probably read too much into that.

I'll also ask about Joshi. What should go on that might not be apparent just by scanning snowflakes for AJW and JWP? If those types of matches are the only ones that should go on, that's fine.

I went through the WON and listed any USWA TV that looked interesting. If I sent the list of stuff to you, would you be willing to look it over and see if there is anything you would add? The '92 Rumble is too historic to join in progress. We will definitely include the full match. Most Rumbles I think you could probably start around the time the winner enters and catch everything you'd need to catch. Since Flair comes in so early, might as well include the full match. JIP would lose fun stuff like the Piper moment and everyone coming in the ring going right after him and such. I think even Finkel's awesome reading of the rules should go on, and DEFINITELY the post-match promo, which is terrific. Very good match, but wow do I HATE the announcing. Jim Ross talks way too much about football and Jesse Ventura picks little things from his points and just focuses on them at the expense of the match. Ross and Ventura really didn't work well together at all.

Luger being willing to poke fun at himself around this time made for some fun TV. His interference in the actual Chicago Street Fight is one of the early comedic highlights of this yearbook. After being interrupted while brushing his hair: "YOU RUINED MY SHEAM!"

It's not, and I regret it. I'm not sure what happened, as I was well aware of that promo, always liked it, and even made it a point to want to go on the set. It will definitely be on a supplemental set.

There was a weird line in the WON mildly criticizing the Road Warriors induction, saying it is more of a Georgia Championship Wrestling thing than a WCW thing. But this is the year to induct guys like that, is it not? (I don't want this to read as a criticism of Dave, just something that caught my eye.)

He did. I think HHH retiring may also generate some interest. I'm too lazy to look it up. Did he ever win 17 world titles like he wanted to do to beat Flair's record years ago?

There are probably two dozen wrestlers that have a case here. I'll chime in, but let me throw this out to everyone for discussion. Who was the most outstanding wrestler of 1996? Keep in mind that this is just focused on in-ring work with no other factors. Rey Misterio Jr won in the WON poll. He definitely has a case, but he's not who I would pick.

The down period stuff is definitely reflected in Mid Atlantic TV at the time, as there was not much going on and the crowds were smaller and less heated than you usually consider Carolinas crowds to be. But they were coming off of a huge show that drew huge money, and in fact, had a really strong 1983 if you also consider the Steamboat/Youngblood vs Slaughter/Kernodle match months earlier that did turnaway business. How did they switch from Starrcade to business downturn so suddenly? What happened to JCP during the 1983 holiday season that killed business?

Let's also discuss Shawn Michaels. I think it's fair to say Shawn started the year off on the right foot. I think it's also fair to say that while Bill Watts thought they should stick with Bret on top, the WWF putting Shawn in the driver's seat was an understandable decision. Diesel bombed as champion, and Michaels was the most over guy on the roster for most of the previous year. The concussion angle was also the perfect story to carry him to Wrestlemania. But something went wrong. Some was in his control and some was out of his control. Business was good early on. The roster was still strong. While Bret bailed after dropping the belt, Diesel and Shawn had an excellent PPV main event where Shawn went over strong. But Diesel, Bret and Razor all could have done quite a bit with Shawn as champ, and none of it happened. Instead, he ended up programmed with Davey Boy Smith. The feud was put together really well, but it was a step down from what Shawn could have done. The Vader feud should have been really hot. In January, Shawn came to the save of Gorilla Monsoon after a Vader attack, and the heat was strong enough that we could see there was something there. That match in six months could be big. Vader was even pushed reasonably strong going into it. But during that six months, WCW overtook the WWF. Hall and Nash were gone. Nothing Shawn could do could compete with a Hogan heel turn. The pressure of being champion seemed to get to him at times. He would lash out at fans and yell at wrestlers who were out of place for spots during his matches. He also wasn't presented in a light that would get the most out of him, as the announcers oversold him and his sex appeal, and by the time Survivor Series happened, the MSG crowd had completely turned on him and were excited to see him drop the belt to Sid of all people. The story of Shawn in 1996 is one of missed opportunity. Had he been booked in the right way against the right opponents (He needed more Mankind and Diesel-like brawls to get him over as a tough guy) and had the announcers toned down the lovefest, Shawn would have been a successful champion and probably would be the Wrestler of the Year. But he's not Wrestler of the Year. That is ... the next wrestler I'll talk about.

#80 - Shiro Koshinaka vs Satoshi Kojima (NJPW G-1 Climax 08/06/96) -- Great big show feel, with lots of clotheslines and powerbombs, and some tremendous nearfalls. Short, but full of life. #79 - Taka Michinoku vs Super Delphin (NJPW Skydiving J 06/17/96) -- I prefer Taka in Michinoku Pro, but that's not to say he's a slouch elsewhere. Taka and Delphin work one of the best NJ juniors style matches of the year on a show full of New Japan juniors. Go figure. #78 - Shinya Hashimoto & Junji Hirata vs Kazuo Yamazaki & Takashi Iizuka (NJPW 06/12/96) -- Hashimoto vs Yamazaki is awesome every time they encounter each other in 1996, and this is no exception. They're given more time to develop their stuff here than they were at the Tokyo Dome, and they're the focus of this tremendous tag match. #77 - Rey Misterio Jr vs Dean Malenko (WCW Monday Nitro 07/08/96) -- Misterio wins the WCW cruiserweight title in a tremendous Nitro match that's actually given time to develop. Rey gets in more offense on Dean than he usually would in their matches, as Malenko seems motivated to put over the title change as a big deal, while also telling the story that Dean's arrogance cost him the match. Nice match. #76 - Vader, Owen Hart & Davey Boy Smith vs Shawn Michaels, Ahmed Johnson & Sid (WWF International Incident 07/21/96) -- Really more overlooked than it should be, as they do all sorts of quirky things you don't normally see in a WWF ring, and Shawn does a clean job for Vader. The highlight is Owen doing a rolling cradle on Shawn and Vince McMahon having no idea what's happening! #75 - Jushin Liger vs Shinjiro Otani (NJPW 03/17/96) -- Otani is good. He knows he's good. We know he's good. But he's his own worst enemy. He has Liger beaten, but doesn't know how to quit while he's ahead and when he finally goes for a pinfall, Liger is too close to the ropes. Great match, and a key part of Otani's story during the year that sadly never went anywhere. #74 - Masahito Kakihara vs Yoshihiro Takayama (UWFI 09/30/96) -- Matwork vs footwork: which will prevail? Takayama is the master of making your UWFI match an emotional struggle, which he certainly does here, and Kakihara impresses me immensely with his great kicks. #73 - Mitsuharu Misawa & Jun Akiyama vs Kenta Kobashi & The Patriot (AJPW 11/22/96) -- A good opening and an epic final stretch. The match starts off slow, but builds to a very exciting climax. #72 - Bret Hart vs Shawn Michaels (WWF Wrestlemania XII 03/31/96) -- Much has been written about this match. Since this is a countdown of the best matches, I'll focus on the positives. It's a good title match transitioning from Bret to Shawn, and I do admire the sentiment behind it. Nice, early 80s US style match, with some nice, basic wrestling. You pretty much see everything Bret and Shawn can do here, which despite it not being either guy's best match, makes it career defining for both in some ways. #71 - Riki Choshu vs Shinya Hashimoto (NJPW G-1 Climax 08/02/96) -- One of the most emotional matches on the set, as Choshu is out to recapture past glory, but first he has to get through New Japan's best wrestler. As good as Choshu looks here, this is really a brilliant Hashimoto performance in making Choshu look like he's still in his prime. Terrific match.

#90 - Jushin Liger & Black Tiger vs Shinjiro Otani & Koji Kanemoto (NJPW 02/15/96) -- Tremendous TV tag match with tons of dramatic saves and a strong face-heel dynamic. One of Otani's many great matches in '96. #89 - Chris Jericho vs 2 Cold Scorpio (ECW Doctor Is In 08/03/96) -- Really fun wrestling match. Jericho and Scorpio work hard to do something different from their normal style. This is definitely one that could have been better had they worked together a few more times. A series would have been terrific. #88 - Vader vs Antonio Inoki (NJPW 01/04/96) -- The match is famous for Vader's German suplex, but it's actually a compelling match outside of that and my personal favorite spot is the desperation sleeper from Inoki. Vader's best singles match of the year. #87 - Daisuke Ikeda & Takeshi Ono vs Taka Michinoku & Shoichi Funaki (BattlARTS 12/04/96) -- One of the first clues that BattlARTS could be more than shooty matwork, as Taka and Funaki bring their Michinoku Pro style to the match and the styles mix really well. #86 - Sabu & Rob Van Dam vs The Eliminators (ECW November To Remember 11/16/96) -- A gratuitous spotfest, but a fun, well-executed one with lots of drama and terrific booking. #85 - Shawn Michaels vs Owen Hart (WWF In Your House VI 02/18/96) -- Great match that played off the concussion angle really well, with Owen's missed enzuigiri getting one of the bigger pops of the match. I also love the hair pulling headlock stuff at the beginning. Shawn and Owen worked very well together. #84 - Rey Misterio Jr vs Juventud Guerrera (AAA 03/16/96) -- Two falls of terrific wrestling, followed by a third fall loaded to the brim with run-ins. Overbooking silliness aside, this is an outstanding match that provides a nice glimpse of what Rey and Juvi could have done to change the wrestling style had they been given the chance. #83 - Shinya Hashimoto & Junji Hirata vs Yoshihiro Takayama & Yoji Anjo (NJPW 02/25/96) -- Hashimoto in 1996 had more charisma than any wrestler in the world, and this match is a tremendous example of that, as the crowd goes crazy for his every move. Fun, well-paced and stiff wrestling. #82 - Kazushi Sakuraba vs Hiromitsu Kanehara (UWFI 12/25/96) -- Kanehara looks amazing in this match, doing some beautiful mat exchanges. Most frightening ankle lock ever. #81 - Mitsuharu Misawa vs Akira Taue (AJPW 05/24/96) -- Taue wins the Triple Crown in a match that appears to be Misawa and Taue largely going through the motions, but this style was so awesome at this point that even a basic match could be a great one.

I do. But I think there was more to that than just "Kanyon is gay, let's bury him". I think that's more an example of the company being generally petty than homophobic specifically. I just know that people like Pat Patterson and Jimmy Miranda who have worked for the front office have typically been beloved.

I should also say that for whatever else you want to say about WWE and the people running it, I don't think most of the people in power are homophobes, at least not to a point that they would aggressively take out personal frustrations with gay people on the air. Linda McMahon went about as far left as a Republican candidate possibly could on the issue of gay marriage (leave it to the states) in her campaign. It's also a company where gay people have succeeded in the past and had power. Their history and television portrayal doesn't match that, but the inner workings of the company, or at least what we know about it, don't make it seem like they would be outwardly hostile toward gay people. I do think the portrayal of women is tied to some psychological problems Vince has, and in the end, I think that's far more harmful and offensive than the gay jokes. The reason I made a thread about this and not that is because people are usually quick to point that out, and here, it seemed like it was flying a bit under the radar.

I definitely won't deny that it worked. He got the desired reaction. That was whole reason I started this thread.

Great post and yes, I agree with this. I really don't want to villify WWE here. It's probably tough to present television based on conflict when you have to worry about not offending this group or that group. Gay jokes are easy heat. Fat jokes against women are easy heat. When they produce as much TV as they do, it makes sense that they sometimes choose expediency over decency. I'm also a bit conflicted over this, because some of the wrestling I love from the past clearly plays this stuff up. Jim Cornette, my favorite manager ever, got over because they were constantly suggesting that he was gay to get heat. Mistakes happen. Even the most well-meaning wrestling company is occasionally going to do something ignorant. I just wish they wouldn't repeat their mistakes, and that as a global, billion-dollar company, it's sometimes surprising that they're less in touch with the world around them than your $25 a night territory from the 80s.

To be clear, my point was not necessarily to bash WWE, even though I did criticize them in my post. I agree that wrestling plays to the lowest common denominator. My criticism was more aimed at people who respond as if doing so is a good thing (which also, to be clear, is not what I took from your response, Matt). The discussion point is not "Why does WWE continue to do this?" as much as it is "Why do people respond positively when they do?" I don't recall the half-breed promos done on Samoa Joe, Dylan, but if they were praised, that's not really great either, although the big difference there is that he was a heel saying something heelish. Babyfaces making racist or homophobic jokes is different because it's suggesting that the audience should agree. The problem is way bigger than wrestling, and homophobia will exist among people who watch WWE whether they play into it or not. But I can't point to anything else that promotes homophobia to children outside of religious cartoons.

If it made the crowd happy to call Rock a half breed, we wouldn't be having this discussion. We would just know that it was wrong, regardless of whether there was a pop for it or not.

Not that I'm surprised, but it's interesting to me that Cena making gay jokes about the Rock is being praised as a really great serious promo response. Considering the focus put on teen suicide and bullying the past few months, that just felt stupid to me. It's 2011. Cena's better than that. It's possible to be edgy without that stuff.

It was a match Will didn't really care for, and we were iffy about putting too much Benoit on the set.

This is amazing in its absurdity, rovert. Thanks for sharing it. RALLIES!