Loss

S.L.L.'s post in the other thread got me thinking, for WWE, what has been a better time period? Obviously, because there's more wrestling on TV now, there have been far more good matches that people have seen this decade than last decade. But would you say the peak stuff from the 2000s is better or worse than the peak Bret Hart and Shawn Michaels matches from the 90s? Let's talk.

I would love to create or rip off some type of all-encompassing DVD project to do here, but I have no idea what it would be. The idea was put out there a few years ago to do Best Matches Ever and do a million categories and make this whole thing pretty insane, but the sheer hugeness of the project sort of killed the idea before it started. I'm definitely open to suggestions. That goes for everyone. If you think of something that you think would work, start a thread to gauge interest.

No offense to anyone involved, but I'm sort of bored with this type of argument. I hate doing the admin thing, but do you guys mind stopping? Please? Thanks.

It's not the one from WWC. It's the one from the year before, the 40-minute tag from television.

I've often wondered this myself. When wrestlers are hospitalized with injuries, why are drug tests not performed at the hospitals? It's usually impossible to get any kind of surgery until you've been tested for drugs (and had to list the meds in your system on some type of form), AIDS, hepatitis, etc. How do wrestlers get around it?

Okay, so I thought about it, and if it's too many matches, I'll just make two discs. No extra charge. It's the holidays, and it's taken longer than it should have from this set to the next one, so consider this my apology. Here are the matches I'm looking at. They won't be in this order, though. Whenever I do a six-man theme, World Class will finally make its debut on this set. Since the DVDVR Mid South set is coming out soon, I won't step on it here. If all this won't fit on two discs, however, some cuts will have to be made. Dory & Terry Funk vs Abdullah the Butcher & The Sheik - AJPW Real World Tag League Final 12/13/79 Roddy Piper & Rick Martel vs Buddy Rose & Ed Wiskowski - Portland 05/31/80 Ric Flair & Dewey Robertson vs Roddy Piper & Jimmy Snuka - Mapleleaf Wrestling 05/15/81 Rick Martel & Tito Santana vs Greg Gagne & Jim Brunzell - AWA 07/18/82 Stan Lane & Jackie Fargo vs Moondogs - Memphis 05/09/83 Adrian Adonis & Dick Murdoch vs Tatsumi Fujinami & Kengo Kimura - NJPW 12/08/84 Rock & Roll Express vs Ivan Koloff & Krusher Kruschev - NWA 07/09/85 Riki Choshu & Yoshiaki Yatsu vs Jumbo Tsuruta & Genichiro Tenryu - AJPW 01/28/86 Jerry Lawler & Dutch Mantel vs Bill Dundee & Buddy Landell - Memphis 03/22/86 (Texas Death Match) Jerry Lawler & Bill Dundee vs Original Midnight Express - AWA 10/30/87 Lex Luger & Barry Windham vs Arn Anderson & Tully Blanchard - NWA 04/20/88 Midnight Express vs Fantastics - NWA 04/26/88 Mitsuharu Misawa & Toshiaki Kawada vs Jumbo Tsuruta & Akira Taue - AJPW 09/30/90 Barry Windham & Dustin Rhodes vs Steve Austin & Larry Zbyszko - WCW SuperBrawl II 02/29/92 Kenta Kobashi & Tsuyoshi Kikuchi vs Doug Furnas & Dan Kroffat - AJPW 05/25/92 Manami Toyota & Toshiyo Yamada vs Dynamite Kansai & Mayumi Ozaki - AJW Dream Rush 11/26/92 Eddy Guerrero & Art Barr vs El Hijo del Santo & Octagon - AAA 11/05/93 Rock & Roll Express vs Heavenly Bodies - SMW Bluegrass Brawl 04/01/94 (Loser Leaves SMW Cage Match) Jushin Liger & Minoru Tanaka vs Yoshinobu Kanemaru & Tsuyoshi Kikuchi - NOAH 08/29/02 Mistico & Negro Casas vs Mephisto & Averno - CMLL 04/14/06

It looks like I'm going to be going with a tag team theme this time. Every match will be a tag match, representing as many eras/styles/promotions as I possibly can. Any non-wrestling stuff included will also be tag team centric. I know the matches I want to use, but am unsure at this point if they're all going to fit. I will post a match list when I know for sure.

By the way, anything I don't mention above that is AAA-related that you think has a place here should definitely be included. I'm curious what you think caused the downturn in the late 90s. Do you think it was simply a matter of losing so many big stars or was there more to it? If you have YouTube links or downloads, feel free to post them here, out in the open, by the way.

Then don't. Either. The more direct links, the better. Think of this thread as a starting point for someone wanting to watch AAA for the first time.

1. How was AAA overall in 2007? I sadly haven't seen much of it, much to the chagrin of Bix. 2. What was the best overall period for AAA and why? From what I've seen, definitely 1993-1995, although I know that's sort of a stock answer. So many great matches, and it rivaled any wrestling promotion in the world at that point, at what was a pretty competitive time. 3. What was the worst overall period for AAA and why? I saw some 1999 AAA that totally left me underwhelmed, along with some 2005 stuff with Waltman and Juvi that I thought I'd like more than I did. But I'm sure there are worse periods. 4. What are the must-see matches, covering the entire history of AAA? Well, the Triplemania shows and When Worlds Collide are the obvious answers, but there's also the Santo/Octagon vs Los Gringos Locos match from one year and one day before the more famous hair match (11/05/93) that is incredible and is probably my favorite AAA tag. Aside from the usual suspects, anything involving Jerry Estrada is guaranteed to at the very least be very fun. And of course, there's Fuerza Guerrera, who will always be amazing. Estrada is kind of this cracked out guy who stumbles around and beats up his partners, but also is a great wrestler in spite of it all. I hate to call Fuerza Guerrera a comedy wrestler because it seems degrading and he really encompasses so much more than that, but he's tremendous and probably has the best schtick and body language of just about any wrestler you'll ever see. In terms of bumbling heels that can never quite get their evil plans to work they way they hope, he may be the best ever in wrestling. 5. Which wrestlers have had the best runs in the history of AAA? From what I've seen, Psicosis deserves major props. Others have probably had better short peaks, but I think Psicosis may be the guy who has had the most good matches over the longest period of time. I may be wrong. 6. How would you describe AAA booking overall? Fun. Not really a booking thing at all, but just a general comment about AAA. I love how in the early 90s, you can watch three or four consecutive shows, and they all feel totally different, meaning the TV show theme changed every week, the colors and graphics they used changed every week. AAA has always seemed like a pretty daring promotion that would try just about anything once, sometimes twice. 7. Five best AAA matches ever? I like the Santo/Octagon vs Eddy/Barr 11/05/93 match I mentioned. Rey/Psicosis from 09/22/95 is classic and must see. The Rey/Juvi matches aren't really all great, but are fun to watch to see them constantly trying new things in every match based on tape watching. 8. Any interesting AAA-related links? Not personally. 9. Are there things that are sort of unique to AAA that someone who is watching for the first time should know? If so, what? Again, they will definitely try anything once. Anything meaning anything. 10. What do you think AAA will be most remembered for, good or bad? Being a feeder promotion for WCW and ECW undercards and drawing bigger in Los Angeles than the WWF ever really could.

I thought I'd sprinkle these out and do these for every promotion. AAA comes first alphabetically, so it comes first here. Basically, here's how it works: 1. How was AAA overall in 2007? 2. What was the best overall period for AAA and why? 3. What was the worst overall period for AAA and why? 4. What are the must-see matches, covering the entire history of AAA? 5. Which wrestlers have had the best runs in the history of AAA? 6. How would you describe AAA booking overall? 7. Five best AAA matches ever? 8. Any interesting AAA-related links? 9. Are there things that are sort of unique to AAA that someone who is watching for the first time should know? If so, what? 10. What do you think AAA will be most remembered for, good or bad?

Strongbow, from what I've seen, was pretty awesome. Admittedly, that's only the Valentine feud, and yes, he is a bit of a poor man's Wahoo, but look at all the poor man's versions of guys like Flair and Hogan and others that have had really great careers.

1. Yes, people from overseas are definitely welcome to join in. PM me your name, address and e-mail address. 2. Yes, an option will be available to get the first two discs as well. Looks like this will finally be a reality this weekend, as I have four days off from work. I'm hoping to have everything mailed Monday of this coming week and will have a match list soon. Stay tuned.

There is definitely a historical precedent in wrestling for people who become big stars at a really young age having tons of problems.

I'm pretty sure that was all because they were going to fire Jim Neidhart and then changed their minds about it, or something like that.

Looks like a pretty good collection. It will be nice to have some of this stuff in DVD quality. I would have liked to have seen the dueling Rock/Eddy Guerrero promo here, but it wasn't so much a hugely memorable segment as it was a really great one, and you take what you can get with these things.

Austin didn't "tone down" his style, but he did change things up somewhat, which I think was as much to match his shift in character was it was to deal with injuries. He still never really took nights off at all.

Yes to an extent. But it wasn't just Benoit. It was Benoit, combined with WWE's handling of the aftermath, combined with the Signature Pharmacy raid, combined with the fact that when thinking about Benoit, you then realize how many of the new wave of juniors from his era are now dead or crippled because of drugs. I don't think anyone is expecting Kobashi to snap at any minute and murder a small child, but the point made with the Benoit tragedy, right or wrong, was that it's impossible to be successful in pro wrestling without being insane. When just six months ago, a wrestler did this, it's natural for people to make the correlation. Define damage. Maybe not to business, but what about reputation? There's a reason that WWE draws some of the highest ratings on cable and has no bargaining power and also still can't attract advertisers. Maintaining the status quo does not mean that no damage has been done. For clarity, I'm not saying that's because of Benoit, because it was a problem long before he killed his wife and son. But wrestling has a horrible reputation, and having the reputation it has has caused long term damage, or at the very least prevented long term growth.

The pre-80s match is probably 08/29/77. It was a hair match and was really good.

I'm not sure how I missed that one the first time, but HA!

If wrestlers want to destroy themselves for a paycheck and to continue chasing their glory days of years past, that's fine and it's their decision. I don't think anyone should be banned from wrestling. I just don't personally feel compelled to glorify people pushing themselves beyond realistic limits at this point. That's my choice. You can argue that increased fan expectations are partially to blame for the path wrestling has taken in the past 10-15 years and be correct. But it's still the wrestler making the final decision to put fame and fortune ahead of quality of life. That's their choice, and that choice has nothing to do with fans "turning their backs". I do think it's probably in some ways admirable that Kobashi beat cancer and then trained hard to get himself back in shape in the hopes of making a full-time comeback. And I think even just a few years ago, people would have been jumping at the chance to cheer him for it. But then Chris Benoit killed his son with his wrestling finisher. Returning from severe injury used to seem like some heroic conquering of the odds. Now it just feels like a one-way ticket to self destruction. It's hard to get behind that. And honestly, there's enough good wrestling that has happened in the past that was filmed that pretty much everyone could watch wrestling matches they haven't seen before for the next 50 years or so and probably not come close to running out of material. I'm not going to actively root for wrestling to die, but if it happened at this point, I can't say I'd be all that torn up about it.

Margaret Hamilton, eh? You know, Kevin Nash was trained by Jody Hamilton. Therefore, wrestling is MMA.

I have all the 1990-1992 WONs, and could update that list and post it here. If someone else could do 1993 and 1998-1999, we could finish out the NJ 90s list.

I do think WWE could do All Access-type hype shows that would be great for their PPV buys. I really think that's all there is for wrestling to learn from MMA.