Loss

Jericho will probably be able to keep his momentum going for a while. He got a huge ovation from the crowd (I don't agree with those at all who thought the Ft. Lauderdale crowd wasn't loud) and the fans seemed really happy to have him back. I wouldn't make fun of him for not being on steroids, but looking at him and listening to him, it is obvious that drug free Jericho is different from the Jericho that was there before. The vest and haircut was just a really big deal. People point out that he didn't look all that different than he did debuting in '99, but maybe he should. It's been 8 years.

The difference is that there isn't really any irony present with the vest.

... was honestly kind of embarrassing. The shorter hairstyle and the horrid vest really, really made him look like an old timer trying to relive his glory days. His nasally, high-pitched non-steroid voice was kind of screeching also. For something hyped so well, with so much thought put into that aspect of it, it's like they had no idea what to do with him after bringing him back. And wow, it took all of two minutes for Jericho to revert back to the midcard catchphrases. It's here you realize this run will be exactly like the last one. I don't have especially high hopes for this return. Something tells me WWE knows they have to ride this while they can and not expose him also, or else there would have been some type of physical altercation between Jericho and Orton to end the show. But at this point, Jericho is so small that it would have totally killed his debut to see him look so tiny next to Orton. Jericho was obviously missed, and has done a tremendous job keeping his name in the mix while out, but I wonder if he may have been out too long.

When did the backlash start? I wasn't aware Carlito was ever liked.

I'll admit most of my problem isn't with Carlito the wrestler, as much as it is Carlito the gimmick. Not that the gimmick itself is terribly offensive, but he really looks stupid wearing a T-shirt doing it. He should be wearing this crazy over-the-top costume, similar to the loud pants and bright shirts Razor Ramon wore when he wasn't in his wrestling gear. I think when top guys complain about young guys without mentioning them by name, most of the time they're referring to Carlito. You're talking about a guy who actually came in with the company pretty strongly behind him and managed to screw it all up by not taking ownership of his career.

Ric Flair has a history of occasionally making people look better than they really are.

Probably that he's a horrible wrestler who isn't good enough to compete on the main roster, and has absolutely nothing going for him.

Tony was bad at times. Tony was good at times. I thought he and Jim Ross worked well together, especially when Ross was the primary guy and Schiavone was there for color. He was also really good in the early days of the NWO at getting them over. I do think by 1998, he was desperately in need of some time off that he never got.

Pre-Hogan era Vince was pretty awesome, and I still think he was quite good early on. The shameless sucking up to the babyfaces and talking over everyone else in the booth as time went on did eventually get old, though.

How much of that do you think is booking? I just remember how at Wrestle War '90 in Greensboro, Cornette did the spot where he and the referee got in a shoving match and the fight had to be broken up by the wrestlers and the crowd went absolutely crazy for it. He tried the same spot in '98 in the same arena and it played to crickets.

When has Tony ever gotten a pass for that? That pretty much killed him as an announcer.

80s Solie is a lot like 00s Jim Ross and isn't something I'm crazy about. The 70s stuff I've heard from him has been pretty good.

It doesn't come from that, as much as it comes from the fact that he always got praise from fans who grew up on WWF wrestling, when other fans just knew there was absolutely no comparison between him and a Jim Ross or Gordon Solie or Lance Russell. The frustration comes from people, even now, talking about how great Gorilla and Jesse were as a team, but you rarely hear anything about how awesome Jim Ross was around the same time. Gorilla Monsoon and Jim Ross share the same relationship as Hulk Hogan and Ric Flair. Gorilla is definitely better than JR since 1999 or so. Every announcer has phrases, but I always felt Gorilla was little more than "Will you stop?", "Highly unlikely", "Terry Garvin School of Self Defense", "As our friend Mean Gene says, close only counts in horse shoes and hand grenades" and everything else he said on practically every single show he ever announced. Kinda felt like if you'd heard him call one match, you'd heard him call every match. I think Vince is the best announcer to ever work in the WWF, and he could be pretty annoying at times himself.

It probably does. But, much like the taking a quote out of context in the CNN piece (which I really think was a major overreaction), it's nice to see WWE getting a dose of their own medicine by being treated the way they typically treat those who aren't on their good side.

No. Southern style is dead, as Jingus mentioned. There's really not much regional difference in wrestling crowds and styles anymore, unless you're comparing wrestling styles internationally.

Actually, yes, all of the above.

The main problem with Gorilla is that he bantered off subject too much, which sometimes felt like an attempt to get himself over. It was worse with Heenan than Jesse. I think he was decent to good on big shows, but horrible on Coliseum Video and MSG shows, because he would talk about anything but the match. He also spoke in generalizations too much (right in the kisser, external occipital pretuberance, etc.) instead of actually getting over holds. He made things up completely off the top of his head, complained about bad matches instead of trying to cover for them and lots of other stuff I'm forgetting. I don't see how anyone could listen to Jim Ross in the same time period when both were calling PPVs and still think Gorilla was anything special. In fairness to Gorilla, part of the problem with him is part of the problem with the WWF style overall. He was just a cog in the wheel. Also, and I'm sure that this will be disagreed with by some people, but Southern wrestling is about 100 million times better than any wrestling in the Northeast.

ROH would actually excel under these conditions. They should start doing shows in Georgia. Might affect Danielson's "I have until five" stuff though.

Yeah, I was thinking I don't recall seeing that criticism of Michaels either, really. If they were booking Michaels as a reflection of general DVDVR thoughts about him, there are plenty of other directions they would go. Maybe have him in gay angles and hair vs hair matches. The stip at Survivor Series would be that he's not allowed to wear sequins in his entrance.

Just to briefly recap, and this isn't even everything mentioned, there's stories about things like Mildred Burke encouraging the girls she sent to do spot shows for promoters to sleep with the promoters so he would bring them back in the future, preferably for more money. There are stories of Burke having an affair with her stepson, and years later, her husband and stepson beating the shit out of her outside of a liquor store. Stories of Sweet Georgia Brown being raped and drugged and becoming an addict - how she was expected to answer the door when someone knocked on her hotel door and if she didn't she was beaten up. Just all kinds of really sick stuff.

This is a good read. Thanks for posting all of this.

Everyone in this thread should read the Fabulous Moolah bio in the latest WON.

I don't really know what my opinion is on this, but I'm curious if porn fans point to Ron Jeremy, Jenna Jameson and Traci Lords as signs of "mainstream acceptance" the way wrestling fans often point to Steve Austin and Hulk Hogan. (I purposely omitted The Rock, because he's in a different league.)

Soon, he will share his new and original thoughts that clean finishes are preferred over DQs, that wrestling is better than talking, that there needs to be more emphasis on titles, tag teams and/or cruiserweights, that HHH gets special treatment, that it's bad business to give away big matches on free television, that the money is in the chase, that banning moves is an attempt to bury smaller guys, that everything needs to "MEAN SOMETHING", that the IC title used to be this great belt that meant something, that more precautions should be taken to ensure safety of wrestlers and that Jerry McDevitt is not a nice person. I personally can't wait.

I liked his matches with Baba in the JWA.