Loss

Barry Windham v Dick Murdoch - WWF 02/16/85, Philadelphia, PA Anyone left puzzled by some of the recent message board talk about working the hard camera and selling for the back row of a big arena should watch this match. Pretty much everyone knows Barry Windham and knows Dick Murdoch, so they're pretty familiar with how they normally do things. This is each guy with his personality and body language turned up to 11, and it's pretty cool to watch. Murdoch has always had a great staggered punch drunk sell - as good as or better than that of Terry Funk - but he exaggerates it even more here. There's also really cool small things Windham does like pull on the ring apron to keep his balance that really play well in front of the large Philly crowd. Murdoch and Windham are not WWF regulars, so you don't normally see them work this style, because quite frankly, they aren't usually wrestling in quite as big an arena as the Spectrum, or in front of as many people. Interesting contrast to some of the other matches they've had, and this match is totally different from the UWF TV time limit match they had a couple of years later. It's always great to watch two pros that work hard to make sure they don't have the same match every time out, and this is a terrific example of that in practice. This isn't a classic, or close to it, but it's still something everyone should see for the performances.

For top-to-bottom shows, I think these are the best: Wrestle War 1990 SuperBrawl II Wrestle War 1992 Beach Blast 1992 Starrcade 1992 SuperBrawl III Spring Stampede 1994 Great American Bash 1996 Bash at the Beach 1996 Starrcade 1996 Halloween Havoc 1997 Spring Stampede 1999

I must admit to being pretty blown away by criticizing Misawa/Kawada for lack of character work in 6/3/94 and loving the No Mercy match so much in the same breath. As much as I love Benoit, Benoit did NOTHING to play to the audience in that match, and it was a really strange case of him bringing a match down for me and Angle outworking him, something I can't say I'd ever say about any other match.

Never saw the street fight from last year, but Shawn was fired up last night more so than I've seen him in a long time, and Edge has improved considerably in the past 12 months, so I'd imagine it was a better match. I don't know if they did things like start brawling before the match started or if they both bled to get over the hatred last year, but they did that in the match last night.

Shawn Michaels has strengths that are pretty much the same strengths he always had. Where this match impressed me was more seeing him show the charisma and confidence again that he hasn't shown in a long time. He looked like a contender instead of a tired old man running through the motions for the first time in years. Who knows if it will sustain or not, but for one night, he looked pretty good. Michaels tends to think of himself as a modern Ric Flair, which is the same problem HHH has, when neither guy is really that type of worker. If they could accept that they do have limitations and work within those limitations, I think I'd probably be a fan of both. But that's a big if.

Yes, I did. I need to talk about that and Matt Hardy/Joey Mercury, both of which were fun matches.

Based on what I've had a chance to watch so far, here's where everything stands for me. 2007 #1 - Shawn Michaels v Edge (WWE, 01/22, Street Fight, Lafayette, LA) ***3/4 #2 - Kintaro Kanemura, Tetsuhiro Kuroda & Onryo v Daisuke Sekimoto, Yoshihito Sasaki & Hiroyuki Kondo (BJPW, 01/02, Tokyo, Japan) ***1/2 #3 - John Cena v Umaga (WWE, 01/07, Kansas City, MO) ***1/2 #4 - Jeff Hardy v Johnny Nitro (WWE, 01/07, Cage Match, Kansas City, MO) (*) #5 - Mitsuharu Misawa v Takeshi Morishima (NOAH, 01/21, Tokyo, Japan) (*) #6 - HHH & Shawn Michaels v Edge & Randy Orton (WWE, 01/07, Kansas City, MO) (*) Brief notes on each match: #1 - Michaels v Edge 01/22/07 Lafayette, LA - I was really surprised by how good this was. Michaels is much better working a gimmicky match where the focus is more on the emotion than the wrestling, and he can just worry more about keeping the crowd involved and getting his character over than building something that makes sense. This match is almost more notable for what it doesn't have than what it does have. There's no Shawn-by-the-numbers comeback and no annoying back work for him to just shake off when he feels like it, and when you take away half his schtick, he's much more tolerable. One thing that typically bugs me about modern HBK matches is that they'll hype up what's supposed to be a "classic" or "pure" match and he works table spots in it that completely contradict what the match is supposed to be. See Flair at Badd Blood '03 and Angle at Wrestlemania XXI for examples. Those types of spots are really out of place in a match like that, but in a street fight setting, it works. This isn't a perfect match by any means, as WWE has gotten over garbage can shots as comedy spots over the last few years, so seeing one in what is supposed to be a heated match seems out of place. Still, they get past all of that early and the final stretch looks really good. Shawn may not be a great wrestler at this stage of his career, but matches like this sure do a lot to keep him effective. I should also give props to the WWE production staff for the way this match is filmed. The commercial break timing is really good (even if Edge catching Shawn with a trash can lid to counter a plancha is a pretty bizarre transition to heel offense) and the camera angle when Orton interfered was pretty amazing, because it really got over that he appeared out of nowhere. Michaels in matches like this where he's doing more brawling than wrestling and doesn't go over 15 minutes is a Michaels I can actually enjoy. Good match! #2 - Kintaro Kanemura, Tetsuhiro Kuroda & Onryo v Daisuke Sekimoto, Yoshihito Sasaki & Hiroyuki Kondo 01/02/07 Tokyo, Japan - Another case of a match where breaking it down piece by piece would make it look pretty bad, but taking the whole match into consideration makes it pretty enjoyable. There's a lot of life and fun in this match I haven't seen in a US match in quite some time. Watching them do something a bit more American style in build where you have a face in peril for much of the match is pretty cool as well. There are some spots that are a little overly contrived, specifically picking up a guy who is already picking up another guy, but they get great heat for the nearfalls and everyone is working really hard. It's a good mixture of highspots, comedy and false finishes. Again, this is far from a perfect match, but it's easy to get into. #3 - John Cena v Umaga 01/07/07 Kansas City, MO - A throwback to the mid 80s where you have a scary monster heel facing a pretty boy babyface and the babyface manages to get lucky enough to escape with his title. Cena gets a bad rap that he really doesn't deserve. He's not a great worker, but he does have strengths, and if he's in the ring with someone who works with him instead of trying to upstage him, he tends to have a really good match. He also always works hard. We see that here. Cena's big strength is selling and taking a beating. The FU and bodyslam attempts where he can't quite hit the move are really good, and the rollup doesn't bother me either, since it's obvious they're building to a rematch. Umaga has some really good offense for a superheavyweight, specifically the leg lariat he pulls out in the middle of the match to cut off Cena's comeback. Good stuff. #4 - Jeff Hardy v Johnny Nitro 01/07/07 Kansas City, MO - Hardy looks as good as he ever has since returning and is also pretty over. Nitro is improving. This is a good effort. A few too many cage-centric highspots without enough heel/babyface dynamic to get it to the next level, but again, they worked hard and came up with a nice finish that was a bit complex. Nothing to get too excited over, but it does the job. #5 - Mitsuharu Misawa v Takeshi Morishima 01/21/07 Tokyo, Japan - Morishima throws bombs all over the place, but he's a bit exposed here. Misawa is concussed early and Morishima's response seems to be dropping him on his head another half dozen times instead of maybe building a match in a different direction. Not really any heat after the entrances, and the finish comes out of nowhere. Not a good match at all. I give Misawa credit for staying somewhat alert, but we already knew Misawa could work through a legit injury. #6 - HHH & Shawn Michaels v Edge & Randy Orton 01/07/07 Kansas City, MO - Oh my God. Everyone should see this. The first part of the match is perfectly okay, even though it's a bit too back and forth for my tastes with the heels not really in a position to work over the babyfaces for any length of time. But the match goes straight to hell when HHH gets injured. Randy Orton is hilarious here, running around with a chair for no reason and juicing himself hardaway. Edge stays down instead of getting up and doing something ridiculous. Michaels does what he can to save the show by attacking the ref, jumping off the top rope through the announce table and destroying both guys with chair shots. HHH never fails to impress, because he knows he's torn his quad obviously, but still calls spots for both Edge and Orton to feed him kickouts instead of improvising and maybe eating the pinfall since he'd be out for a while. Total trainwreck of a match.

I haven't watched Tully/Garvin yet, but I do agree that Flair/Garvin from the 12/28/85 WCW is a great match. Garvin brought something out of Flair that no one else could. I think this was their best match together.

Definitely not as good, but I really enjoyed this match. This felt like something Bill Watts would have booked to get over the realism of the wrestling style. Both are selling that they're working hurt, and it's pretty awesome -- for MS1, it's his shoulder and for Chicana, it's his neck and throat. Both go after the weakness of their opponents like vultures. There is a much slower pace because they're selling so much, and I agree that the match could have used some blood, but I think it does a great job getting over the hatred of the rivalry, and the horror on MS1's face when he realizes he's about to lose his hair yet again is quite the sight.

I think they're still building to a Morishima win, but they thought it was too soon/obvious to do it now. I haven't seen Takayama in a long time, so I'm not sure how I feel about that.

He may have gotten them from Alfredo, who is converting all the Lynch stuff apparently and releasing a Greatest Lucha of the 80s set that I believe has around 15 volumes now, maybe a little less. El Satanico v Gran Cochisse (EMLL, 09/14) An absolute classic! I was really, really surprised at this, as I wasn't sure what to expect from Cochisse, and the Satanico I've watched lately has been him mainly feeding babyface comebacks. And he's really good at that, but it's about all I've seen him do in this time frame. This was his breakout performance for me, just an incredible match that really shows off the best of both guys. The match is in many ways a lucha libre version of the Chigusa Nagayo v Devil Masami match from AJW, but with a more satisfying finish. It's a match where all the holds are earned and there's a lot of struggle for each move, and where they're overwhelmingly portrayed as equals. The first fall would be a nice Heat match on its own, with Satanico working over Cochisse and Cochisse fighting back while still selling his injuries during his comeback, setting up a clean finish in about five or six minutes. The second fall takes it a step further, with Satanico still staying on offense much of the time, but allowing enough teases and flashes of success from his opponent to keep things interesting. The final fall is amazing, with some of the best nearfalls you'll ever see. It may be a little 2.9 for some, but this match really worked that well and it was built up so nicely beforehand that each fall attempt seemed like it would absolutely be the finish, which gave this a huge big match feel. Some amazing dives from both, and I really love Satanico's simple offense. There's not really anything all that outlandish he does here at all, but he makes everything he does count. The punches and headbutts and kicks are all delivered with a lot of snap. Cochisse puts on a great performance here as well, but this is definitely a match carried by Satanico offense. Just about any other year and it would be MOTY. El Satanico v Super Astro (EMLL, October) Another great performance from Satanico! I don't think this was quite at the level of the other match, mainly because Astro does seem a peg or so below Satanico for much of this match, but it's still an excellent match for both guys. Super Astro looks terrific here, with lots of great high flying moves and dives to the outside. Again, though, it's Satanico that steals the show for me, just because he can deliver a beating so convincingly. El Dandy v Javier Cruz (EMLL, October - Hair Match) It was said recently in this thread that this match was a bit disappointing and I'd agree with that. It's still an excellent match, especially in the final fall, but it's a bit choppy and there's a lot of break-ups in the flow that seem a little forced. I understand that every style is not the Southern style, but man, seeing three consecutive DDTs not lead to a fall is a hard pill to swallow. The finish was tremendous, with both brawling outside and Dandy frenetically trying to get back in the ring before the count and also ensure that Cruz doesn't get back in at the same time. It worked, and Cruz had his head shaved as a result. There was some tremendous drama and suspense in that final fall, but the first two falls were a bit rough at times, even if they did still contain some nice stuff. Atlantis, Villano III & Mascara 2000 v Sangre Chicana, Mocho Cota & Cien Caras (EMLL, October) Good match, as you'd expect from these guys. Not the classic you'd hope for, though. Perro Aguayo v Sangre Chicana v El Faraon v Villano III (EMLL, October) The four-way stip didn't really do much for me here. It was a good match, but it felt more like a tornado tag match with Villano/Faraon v Aguayo/Chicana for most of the opening. That's fine, but it didn't maintain long enough to mean anything because the eliminations came too soon. Still, all four guys are awesome and there's chemistry that can't quite be explained between the participants here, and they do a good job of putting over several feuds at once. Fun enough.

Because MMA and wrestling both promote matches with the intention of getting people to pay to see them. The mechanics of how they go about it might be different, ie: booking vs. match making, etc, but at the end of the day the only major difference is that one is real and the other is fake. Other than that, they have the same intent; getting people to pay to see a fight. Which is a promoting similarity. Comparing the performers to each other is not logical. That's been my argument all along. My base premise would be the opposite, which is that the ONLY thing they have in common is the promotion of getting people to pay to see a fight.

Okay, by the Ortiz standard, is Tito Ortiz considered a "good worker"? Because that was what always supposedly kept Hogan from winning the award in the 80s, despite meaning more to his company and leading his company to more success than anyone else.

Of course they're not purposely driving them away, but there's an unspoken standard about what makes a good promo in pro wrestling. Does that same standard exist in MMA? Will they re-shoot if a guy stumbles over his words, or if he focuses on a weakness the promoter doesn't want him to point out because it affects the builduip? Is a fighter who can't talk going to have his marketability or drawing power affected even if he wins every fight he's in? Does a fighter have any responsibility for his opponent at all? Any responsibility to put his opponent over and the upcoming match? Is he given a script or even a list of bullet points to hit? If a fighter can't talk, is he going to be booked less? Are there any examples of this happening? Beyond that, you can't have wrestling without booking. There's no booking in MMA, and if you want to call matchmaking booking, it's totally different because the time given and finishes are not planned in advance. You can't tell an undercard fighter to hold back so they don't upstage the main event. It's radically different, and the stars in each have radically different goals. Are there examples of this happening in the past? Again, are the fighters given specific bullet points to hit and specific things to avoid? UFC All Access *is* a promoting technique, one that wrestling could learn from. Comparing pro wrestling to something that doesn't have booking, selling, a clearly named babyface and a clearly named heel, and planned finishes makes no sense to me at all. I don't see the logic in comparing something that is real to something that isn't.

Being worked and not being worked is a major, major difference, and I think Dave underrates how substantial and important that is. When UFC fighters do promos, are they doing them specifically to generate PPV buys? Are they working with their opponent to create a major money program? Meltzer focuses on the similar promoting style, but the training, skillset and calculated goals of an MMA fighter are so drastically different than those of a pro wrestler that while I do think you can compare Dana White to Vince McMahon, you can't -- at all -- compare Edge to Chuck Lidell. UFC fighters aren't working in cooperation with the promoter to make a profitable show, to get themselves and their opponents over, and to sell the public on a match. UFC fighters aren't really put in a position where they're required to sell the public on anything, because the promoter is going to do all of that. If the only difference was that one was worked and one wasn't, then Tito Ortiz could get into pro wrestling and wouldn't need any training to immediately become a great worker. He couldn't, as we saw with Ken Shamrock in the late 90s.

Japanese wrestlers tend to love working America often, don't they? I'm sure Liger was willing to do whatever was asked because he was on American TV.

Tully also had a brief stint as a road agent for WWE recently.

Who?

This is probably going to be a necessity. I hate having to do it, but better this than the board getting shut down or someone losing their job because an -- ahem -- unsuitable picture is posted on the board.

From Meltzer:

They released Tatanka? That sucks. His comeback has been surprisingly fun.

If you see them posted here from someone you've never heard of, DO NOT OPEN THEM. Apparently, we have spambots that are somehow creating accounts and then posting porn. Don't want to get anyone in trouble if they're viewing this place at work. This has happened twice this week so I'm sure it will happen again. I'm trying to catch/delete them very quickly, but just be aware.