Loss

I'm thinking more pre-WWF Duggan. He sucked by the time he got a national stage.

From Bryan Alvarez:

We haven't even scratched the surface on my favorites. More on all of these -- and more -- later. Ricky Morton Jerry Lawler Tsuyoshi Kikuchi Bret Hart Rey Misterio Jr Eddy Guerrero Chris Benoit Barry Windham Hacksaw Duggan Kenta Kobashi Giant Baba

"Good" and "effective" aren't synonyms. No one is denying that Hogan was effective, and I think at times, he was a very good babyface in the ring as well. I just think it's the responsibility of the top babyface to create the moral structure of the entire company, meaning his actions are unabashedly right and his foil's actions are unabashedly wrong. It's why I'm a Bret Hart fan, and it's also why it was hard to side with Hogan, even as a little kid, when Jesse Ventura was making points about his behavior that were accurate. Michaels gets a lot of cheers these days. Are you saying that his face character *is* a great one and that he *doesn't* ever come across as a self-righteous asshole?

Eh, Mascaras was awesome against Destroyer.

http://s37.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=2AKCJNZ...T92RK6DLZLYDE3D This is, quite simply, a must-read. I don't know what the best part of the article is -- the fascinating details about Eddy's training, the way he was taught to throw a worked punch, the quotes about him from Rock, Konnan and Chris Jericho, the admission from Jericho that he and Eddy used to get together after shows and do GHB back in WCW, Eddy being told that he had the back of a 70-year old and being told he should retire last year, Paul Heyman's proposed booking for Eddy and Benoit in both ECW and WCW, the surprising Steve Austin mention ... this is the best thing I think Meltzer has ever done.

Hogan got the reaction, but arguing that the Hulk Hogan character was a good person is what I'm arguing, which he wasn't. Do the laws of Hulkamania now state that it's okay to abuse evil women? And don't kid yourself on Liz. He abandoned his tag team partner and best friend when he was being doubleteamed by two giants in the ring so he could cop a feel on his best friend's girlfriend and play the hero.

Matt Morgan would get over huge, and Morgan/Brown with 12 months of build would have "dream match" appeal if they protected both guys. Maybe debuting Morgan as Jarrett's muscle to further the divide between Brown and Jarrett, but there are more possibilities there as well. Strangely, I think Jindrak could have a shockingly good feud with Rhyno. Rico is a little tougher to find a good storyline for.

That was awesome. It was even more awesome in the famous 6/9/95 tag in AJPW. It's amazing that you can feel sympathetic for someone the size of Kenta Kobashi.

On the plus side, maybe Rudo can resurrect his horribly offensive "Black Trish" storyline.

Hogan used to suplex and clothesline Sensational Sherri, a woman less than half his size. He relied on outside interference and a biased referee against Earthquake at Summerslam '90. He weaseled out of locking up with Andre at Survivor Series '87 out of fear. He used chairs, without provocation, against both Vader and Brutus Beefcake in WCW.

They're foolish for not signing Shannon Moore, since he fits in nicely with the roster they have. Kidman ... I don't know, he needs to re-find himself.

Michaels became more flashy when his singles push started, but he was definitely a more complete wrestler from 1986-1991 than he was after, although I'm much in the minority for saying that. Michaels is perfect for tag team wrestling, because he has cool moments, although he really isn't the type of worker who I think does well in long singles matches because there are so many logic gaps throughout. The Rockers v Somers/Rose feud is a great example of Shawn's talent in that area, as are the Rougeaus and Brainbusters matches in '89. And strangely enough, my favorite matches from Shawn post-1992 (aside from the Mankind match and the two Ramon ladder matches) have been tag matches, either with Austin against Owen and Davey Boy, or with Diesel against Razor and Kid.

I think a lot of the young guys growing up today watched a lot of guys that weren't necessarily great talkers but were supreme athletes and decided that's who they wanted to emulate. Guys like Shawn Michaels and Rey Misterio. The problem is -- with few exceptions, they aren't really putting much thought or effort into their characters and their interviews, and as a result, promos suck most of the time in 2005. Hayes didn't give anything resembling an earth-shattering interview that you'll remember forever, but he did outdo every interview every wrestler in the company has done in at least two years, which is why it stood out. The guys that grew up watching Austin, Rock and Foley talk people into buildings in 1999-2000 should be around in a few years, so maybe that aspect will improve soon.

Exactly. Hogan was, in many ways, the supreme heel of his era. He broke rules, beat up women, had the referees, announcers and promotional machine in his pocket and got away with murder. It's similar to Shawn Michaels, who as a face is ironically a great heel because he's such an asshole.

Will someone PLEASE start naming specific examples instead of just throwing names out there? That was the purpose of this thread. "In Match X, someone did such-and-such that was really awesome." Thanks.

Masterlock mentioned Tito, who is one of my favorites on the DVDVR set. His bump off of Butch Reed's big soupbone in the post-match brawl is one of my favorite moments on the entire set.

You said none of that has anything to do with what's going on in the ring and that you wouldn't know it without the announcers.

If you can't even tell who the face is and the heel is, or at least who the underdog is and who the champ is, from the actions in the ring, then you're typically not watching a very good match.

That is going on inside the ring, though. That's the story the match is communicating to the viewers, is it not?

I'm not so much thinking in terms of money drawn, just because there's nothing to discuss there because it's not open to interpretation. I'm thinking in terms of babyface performance in specific matches and the nuances of the performance that stood out to you as great babyface work. From a money-drawing perspective, Flair and Austin are tremendous babyfaces. But I've always felt that Austin makes his opponents look like shit as a babyface (with rare exceptions) and Flair actually has historically done the same unless someone like Vader was potatoing him and leaving him with no choice.

There's probably truth there. The hometown kid challenging the bulletproof champ is a story as old as wrestling itself, as Dave Meltzer said in his review of the match. And I still need to watch that damn rematch. Tonight ...

I would agree that Waltman - at one time - had the ability to play a great babyface. If I was going to point to an example for him, it would be his match with Bret Hart on the 07/11/94 RAW, which saw Bret take him to the best match of his career. I'd hardly classify Kid as a spot machine at his peak, but he had that rep and he was always paired off with other guys who had that rep. This was a rare opportunity for him to work with a well-rounded worker and he made the most of it. I credit the genius of Bret Hart for the masterful crowd manipulation in that match, as they were solidly in Bret's corner against the one-hit midcarder, but slowly grew comfortable with Kid as the match progressed and started cheering him more. Part of that was because of Bret using holds that would get him sympathy - maybe even the biggest part - but it wouldn't have worked if Kid hadn't been such a terrific seller. If this was the end of 1993 and I was voting on the Best Gimmick, I might have to consider the 1-2-3 Kid, who after auspicious beginnings turned into a relatively hot midcard act and totally went against the grain of who was pushed in the WWF at the time.

Actions speak louder than words. Has TNA ever turned down a WWE guy actively pursuing work with them?