Loss

07/22/88 - Randy Savage v Ted DiBiase -- CAGE MATCH This wasn't quite as good as I remembered it being, but I still liked it. Virgil's interference pissed me off, not because it took away from the match, but because it was worked in so well. Savage getting the win had to happen with that build, and it did. DiBiase is just a terrific bumper and carried this match. This is another case of Savage not being at his best when working with someone at his level. Still, ***1/4 match.

Then again, they're now associated with Roddy Piper and Kevin Von Erich. Of course, maybe they're clean now, I don't know.

I just read the Ross Report. With everyone else who's burned a bridge that they've brought back, it amazes me that they still take potshots at Randy Savage. He left on amicable terms in 1994 and he and Vince remained friends, so I don't understand why they're so hesitant to give him a Legends deal now. He's also one of the five or ten biggest stars they've ever had. Unless the Stephanie rumors really are true, that is.

I'll fix the title. This is only good if they have a strong replacement already in line. Ross has gotten bad, but there really isn't anyone ready to step into that role that fits the WWE mold.

We all know the four biggest draws in US wrestling of the past quarter century have been Hogan, Austin, Rock and Andre. So, who comes in after that? You have a lot of guys that are really close. There are a lot of guys here who have a strong case, and there are some I only included to see if anyone voted for them, but I think this is worth talking about. I'll tell you my opinion later.

Well, I need to rewatch 6/3/94 to know where I stand on that, but I don't have it ranked here, because I don't know how I compare it to the other tag matches from the era. As for the rest, I think we were arguing semantics and I understand what you were saying now.

You've said you don't understand the difference between a ****1/4 and a ****1/2 match before. I said that not because of anything you've said in a post that has made me come to that conclusion, but because you yourself have said it. If you're not willing to put your own rating out there, I don't think you *should* debate star ratings. It's not a matter of whether or not you have the right to. I hate to use this term because it sounds harsher than I mean it ... but I think it's intellectually dishonest to point to flaws in something someone else says without explaining how you came to your own conclusion. How did you get from Point A to Point B there? I sure don't understand it. How much of a gap between **** and ***** do you think there is? I asked you to name some matches you consider around **** and you didn't, so what am I supposed to do? Again, you're comparing Misawa/Kawada to Hogan/Savage. That's YOU making that comparison, not me. I never put them on the same level. I didn't call Hogan/Savage *****. I DID NOT GIVE THIS MATCH *****. THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THAT. I AM NOT COMPARING HOGAN VERSUS SAVAGE TO MISAWA VERSUS KAWADA. The rating is a footnote, not an explanation. I only use them because they're a good quick reference. You choose not to use them. That's why I don't understand why you're quick to criticize others who do. Yes. Why are you involving Misawa, Kawada and Kobashi in this when I haven't mentioned them? Yes, I see the point you're making, but even then, there are great US matches that are better than some M/K/K matches. I think Savage/Warrior from Wrestlemania VII smokes Misawa/Kawada from 10/21/92. It's hard to debate this with you when you're throwing out names and not matches. And when you do throw out matches, you repeatedly only name matches you think are ***** and thus at the top of the heap. Again, I feel like it's back to square one, where I don't know where you find middle ground between Matches That Are All-Time Classics and Matches That Suck. There are matches in between. Thousands of them. Hogan/Savage happens to be one of them. Agreed. The fact that you're disagreeing is not the issue here. The fact that you're disagreeing and not making proper analogies is where I take issue. I can admit publicly that you know what you're talking about. I'll do so right now. I don't disagree that a bunch of snowflakes are meaningless without some explanation attached. I've never denied that. But you're making it about the *'s instead of refuting specific points I made about both matches. That's silly. I never said it was mandatory. I just said that if you're going to criticize others for theirs, you should be willing to come back with your own. That's an ethical thing. If you were disagreeing with my words, I wouldn't even be bringing up the star ratings. But you're not. You're disagreeing with the snowflakes only, and when you won't provide your own, that's simply unfair. Why are you so anxious to call me out every time you think something I say doesn't fall in line with something you believe? Again, you're making it about the stars, not me. I never said the star is what's important. You're the one who did that when you said you were not disagreeing with my thoughts on Hogan/Savage, but rather only the star rating. It does. It also doesn't apply to anything I've said in this thread. Pay attention to your own words. That's the only reason I even mentioned it.

04/21/85 - Ricky Steamboat & Tito Santana v Dream Team Kind of an ordinary tag match, but they followed the tag formula about as well as one could hope, and I really dug the Steamboat/Santana tag team. I wish there was more doubleteam stuff from both sides, because I didn't really feel like either team wrestled as a team. Valentine and Beefcake just don't click for me thus far. Still *** or so, but not as good as it sounds on paper.

11/14/81 - Andre the Giant v Killer Khan This is the worst match I've seen so far on this set. This is at the very bottom of my list and will probably stay there. I'm not even sure why this is included. This match looks faker than anything on this set and I've seen much better elsewhere from both guys.

Here's what I don't understand. You say the problem is with the rating, but then you start comparing it to Misawa/Kawada, Joe/Punk, etc. There is no comparison, and I'll agree with you there. Maybe, instead of listing the best matches you've ever seen as a reference, you should mention matches that are closer to **** than ***** in quality. Of course, that's hard to do when you don't rate matches, but then again, I don't understand how you can call someone else out on a bad star rating when you've admitted that you don't even grasp the way star ratings work.

You'll be seeing a lot of criticism of Savage while I'm watching these matches, believe me. You'll also be seeing lots of praise. The fact that the match was rehearsed isn't as much of the problem as it is that the match is *obviously* rehearsed. If you want to continue to defend Savage/Steamboat, more power to you, but I've watched that match probably 100 times or more in the past 18 years and my mind ain't changing. I fail to see what specifically makes the match hold up well at all, and it's barely on the same planet as Savage/Warrior. You can't fault a wrestling match for aiming to please its audience. This match, and every Hogan match, calls for him to do those things. It's part of the mythology surrounding him and Wrestlemania; it's what people expect, and they'd be disappointed if they didn't get it. All wrestlers have trademark spots; those are Hogan's. I'm not using that stuff to defend the quality of the match, but I'm not going to call the match a bad one solely because of that either. It's those things that will always keep Hogan from having a ***** classic. The right opponent with the right ideas in mind, however, can reign him in, organize things to where they get the most out of them when they do happen and still have a great match with him. This is proof of that. This match is made by Savage, yes, but Hogan more than holds up his own end of the deal. As for the specific flaws you listed ... Hogan only no-sells when he starts making his comeback. If I was going to say this match had some flaws, I'd call that one of them. There's no other point in the match where he no-sells anything, and in fact, he sells everything in great fashion. Watch him do the Steamboat style throat grabbing when Savage goes after his throat and watch him slowly crumble to his feet when Savage chokes him out. Kicking out of the elbow is an admitted flaw if you think it's excessive. On an MSG or Boston house show, I'd say it was excessive. On the big stage like Wrestlemania, it's not excessive at all, because it's Wrestlemania, and thus it's all about reaching deeper and having to go further. That's a clear, consistent theme with Wrestlemania main events -- Hogan/Bundy, Hogan/Savage, Hogan/Slaughter, Savage/Flair, Bret/Yoko, Austin/Michaels, every Austin/Rock match, Shawn/Diesel, Bret/Shawn ... in every single one of those matches, the winner took the loser's finisher, survived it and still came back for the win. The puffy face? Come on. That's what babyface comebacks are. Flair does indeed do the Flair Flop in almost every big match and it is indeed annoying. Flair has also had dozens of great matches in his career. Call it a flaw, but I have a problem with suggesting that the entirety of the match is a wash because of one spot. Yes, it keeps the match from being perfect, but it's hardly enough to keep it from being great.

09/01/84 - Tito Santana v Paul Orndorff I have very little to say about this. It was one of the most perfectly average matches I've ever seen. St. Louis crowds are always fun, though, and man, are they electric here! 07/20/85 - Ricky Steamboat v Bob Orton Ditto here. I think this match was just getting good when it ended though, and as a result, this probably isn't as good as Tito/Orndorff.

They have to satisfy the kids in the audience that want to see the Hulk up, the big boot and the legdrop. If Hogan isn't Hogan in a match but someone else entirely, then that's going to drag the match down more than anything else. It's not that doing that stuff makes it better, it's that not doing it would make the match worse and all wrong. Maybe you can explain what hokeyness you're specifically talking about. As for Savage/Steamboat, yes I saw it live and yes it was cool at the time to see Steele stand up for himself. It doesn't change the fact that Savage is the heel and shouldn't lose because of a ref bump and outside interference. I don't like how "danced" and rehearsed this match is, either. Steamboat has said they wrestled this match around the horn 100 times before WM 3, step by step. I have a problem with that, because there are times when improvising a little may have made the match better. Again, that's a weakness on Savage. Savage was not at the level he needed to be here, and it was his idea to do the match step by step anyway.

Hogan's routine can get hokey at times, but that's Hulk Hogan. A Hogan match would be disappointing and wrong if he didn't do his trademark stuff, especially in a Wrestlemania main event. They do a good job of working it all in here where it doesn't seem put on or too silly. He's not as embarrassing here as he has been in plenty of other matches -- he has some really good power spots, tossing Savage over the top rope and shrugging him off early to establish the match in that direction. He does some chain wrestling early on. He sells the throat injury from Savage in fantastic style. Comparing that match, which met every possible expectation set before it, to Savage/Steamboat, which didn't, just seems wrong to me. I also much prefer Savage in this match to that match. He's far more ruthless against Hogan than Steamboat, zoning in on Hogan's blood, choking him with his wrist tape and throwing Elizabeth in front of him to show what a coward he really is on a level playing field. None of that was there for Savage/Steamboat. I think this is the best performance of Hogan's career and the best match he's ever had. That could change as I go through these DVDs, but I suspect it won't, as I'm thinking Hogan/Backlund will be all about Backlund and the other matches with Savage and Orton probably won't be quite on the same level. I could be wrong, though.

Added: Bret v Steamboat 03/08/86 - ***3/4

What does SNKT have to do with that? I know you put reviews there, but feel free to post your thoughts as you're going through the discs, or even now if you remember them. 09/14/85 - Bret Hart v Dynamite Kid I expected this to be a lot better than it was. I didn't expect much crowd heat, and that turned out to be a correct assumption, but I thought that maybe they'd build a match and engage more people as the match wore on. They didn't really do anything like that. I liked Dynamite here -- great bumps, really fluid work. Bret was still pretty raw at this point and it showed. Then again, six months later he had a really strong match with Steamboat, so maybe Steamboat was the better worker compared to Dynamite Kid, at least in terms of laying out a match and at least in 1985. Peak-to-peak, I have no idea. Anyway, what probably hurt this as much as anything was that they were working toward the finish and whatever caused the pinfall wasn't shown because the producers were backtracking and showing clips from earlier in the match. Dynamite's flying kneedrop is probably an all-time favorite highspot for me now, though. 03/08/86 - Ricky Steamboat v Bret Hart Excellent match, even better than I was expecting based on my memory. I remember not liking this too much the first time I watched it, but this just shows what a second viewing can accomplish sometimes. This is the closest to Hansen/Destroyer I imagine I'll see on the discs, in terms of a young guy challenging a more established guy. In that direction, they almost go too far overboard making Bret look strong, considering their positions on the card at the time. Bret getting the pinfall with the ref knocked out was probably a spot Steamboat devised because he wanted to give Bret an out, but considering there was never going to be any follow-up on this, it's really wasted here. Besides that, they do a great job of giving Steamboat the advantage at the right times and Bret the advantage at the right times. Steamboat's triple-counter to Bret is an outstanding little sequence, and later on, Steamboat lets his guard down and Bret kicks him in the face off the ropes, which turns the tide in his favor. Steamboat yelling "SHUT UP!!!!!" at Jimmy Hart is great comedy too. This will probably be in the top half, but I'm not sure where. ***3/4

Also added the following: Hogan v Savage 04/02/89 - **** Savage v Steamboat 03/29/87 - ***1/2

04/02/89 - Hulk Hogan v Randy Savage This is probably going to be in the top 10 or 15 on my list. Just a terrific performance from both guys, especially Savage, as he's much better with an opponent who wrestles at a slower pace. He was such a tremendous heel here. Hogan showed some surprising wrestling moves early on, teased comebacks at just the right times and finished the match off at the right time as well. This would have been better without Liz around at all, but to their credit, they did throw her out of the building. I dug Jesse Ventura on commentary as well. **** or so, no question.

03/29/87 - Randy Savage v Ricky Steamboat I've made my thoughts on this match known many times, but I decided to watch it again. First of all, it's funny that they're wrestling at such a fast pace that the ref gets blown up, but it's not funny when it starts fucking up the false finishes -- there are two nearfalls where he counts three by mistake, the crowd pops thinking the match is over and then it restarts. That's not the only time the ref is out of position for a spot, as Savage reverses Steamboat's rollup by pulling the tights in plain sight of the ref, who looks right at it and just keeps going. I also don't like that Savage is the moral victor here, despite being the heel, as he covers Steamboat with the ref knocked down and succumbs to outside interference from Steele. As far as the wrestling, it's nice, but they don't really do that good of a job putting over even the best stuff. Steamboat does more than Savage -- his bump to the floor is really awesome and I felt like Steamboat was the one carrying this. His body language, selling and bumping are all top notch. He was a total angel but I don't feel like Savage held up his part as a total devil, so the match didn't feel as epic as it should in front of 78,000+. Not only does the booking portray Savage as the screwed over babyface, but so do some of the spots in the match, like him getting caught in the ropes and having Steamboat illegally attack him. What makes that even worse is how out of place it is with the scientific aromassage style the rest of the match is wrestled in. If Steamboat can show some rage taking advantage of Savage being in a precarious position, then he can show some rage at the opening bell and not act like he's wrestling another babyface in a friendly encounter. The tie-ins to the feud, while not happening as often as they should, are nice when they are done -- the crowd shows that they want desperately to buy into Steamboat's struggle the one time Savage tries to go for the throat, but there's no follow-up. Ventura was absolutely right when he said that Savage should have rested his throat on the guardrail and tried the double axehandle. Nice to know I wasn't the only one who thought that spot would have been a given. The stuff with Steele is really good, since he's been in love with Elizabeth for a year going into this, and I don't mind him taking the bell away from Savage, but I feel like Savage should have done something more dastardly before that. Just anti-climatic all around for what was a heated feud. Clips of the buildup prior to the match show Steamboat having to be restrained. Where is that here? This match in Memphis would have had Steamboat wrestling in a neckbrace, but this is the WWF, and they don't always do things to the full level they should. I'll go ***1/2 for the good stuff, but there's really no reason this couldn't have been much better.

04/07/86 - British Bulldogs v Greg Valentine & Brutus Beefcake Maybe it's just because I've seen so many great tag matches, but I was totally disappointed here. I like the power spots from the Bulldogs, but strangely enough, it feels like Beefcake is the one holding up the heel side, and there's only so much he can do. Valentine just drags this down with convoluted spots that he's obviously getting in for the sole purpose of overselling or looking stupid. The ending wasn't built well at all and came across as a fluke. This will be the toward the bottom of my list.

I'm just putting them in order as I go.

Added the WWF 80s stuff I've watched so far to the list. Slaughter v Sheik 6/16/84 - ***** Bret v Perfect 10/02/89 - **** Adonis/Murdoch v Slaughter/Daniels 07/23/84 - ***1/2 Explanations in other thread.

11/15/86 - Randy Savage v Jake Roberts Match was okay, but nothing special. I normally like heel v heel matches and feuds because of the unpredictability involved, but this match never really came together for me like I thought it would. Lots has been made about this match being heel/heel, but Jake played the total face here and had the crowd on his side. In some ways, that's cool because they can do more with that dynamic, and in some ways, it's disappointing, considering the way people talk about this match. I might have liked this more without the Internet hype for it being something special. I'm a fan of Savage, but I think sometimes his matches are way too predictable. He's much better carrying slugs than he is going against someone who can work at his level.

10/02/89 - Bret Hart v Mr Perfect Starts off with some really nice fast-paced action and Perfect's spin bump off of the hiptoss is so cool, as is the look of frustration on his face afterward. That frustration continues when Bret embarrasses Perfect off of a criss-cross sequence by stopping and applauding for him. When Perfect tries a go-behind, Bret stomps on his foot. Perfect tries to pull hair to get out of a headlock and Bret turns the tables on him by doing the exact same thing -- TWICE! This is great, totally uncharacteristic comedy from both guys. It also says a lot that fans are buying nearfalls so early in the match off of something as simple as a sunset flip or a crucifix that NEVER gets a pinfall. The speed things up/ slow things down approach on and off of the headlock works really well here. Perfect tries showing Bret up again, Bret retaliates with the exact same tactics and now Hennig is afraid to even lock up with him. This is priceless! At this point, he's desperate and sneaks in a punch when the ref is trying to force a clean break and creates lots of space between himself and Bret, repeatedly knocking him off the apron when he tries to get back into the ring or doing as much damage as possible on the floor. Genius' reaction at ringside when Bret crotches Hennig on the top rope while making his comeback is hilarious, and things just get worse in that department when Bret tries to back away from Hennig and ends up crotching himself on the ringpost. Crowd is going nuts with every attempted Bret nearfall, and keep in mind that they've succeeded in putting a guy wrestling main events with an undefeated streak and a midcarder who's seen as the weak link of a tag team on the same level by this point. No small accomplishment at all. Hennig having to pull the tights to get the win is the right ending, considering how much the body of the match did to make Bret look like a player. This will probably end up in my top 10. I'd say it's **** or so -- better than Summerslam '91, but not as classically great as King of the Ring '93.

06/16/84 - Sgt Slaughter v Iron Sheik -- BOOT CAMP MATCH Slaughter's entrance is so incredibly grandiose, even by 2005 standards. Anyway, I love seeing Slaughter come out so strong so early and destroy the evil foreigner to the delight of the crowd. Sheik bumps like he means it and Slaughter is an awesome babyface. Slaughter's no slouch as a bumper either, bumping to the arena floor off the Irish whip in big fashion. I love the little morality play going on here, as Sheik starts using weapons and the crowd boos him out of the building for using the same tactics that were used against him. This match could have been held in the middle east and wrestled the exact same way and the Iron Sheik would be the babyface. Kind of a precursor to the USA/Canada angle in 1997 in that regard. I also love how everything has so much meaning here -- the mythology surrounding Sheik's pointed boot is something missing in today's wrestling, but it's so simple and could so easily be done. Fans buy it as a death spot when Slaughter gets thrown into the boot head first. Great paybacks too, with Slaughter doing the same spots on the floor that Sheik did to him early on - in some ways, that's the tone of the match, with Sheik giving Slaughter a dose of his medicine and then some early on and Slaughter following up by getting revenge for all of that and then giving *him* more, and the match continually escalates that way. By the time they get to Sheik trying to use his boot as a weapon for a second time, Slaughter gets a huge pop for just blocking it and the crowd buys that Slaughter is in danger of going down for good when he goes stomach first into the boot. Such smart stuff that the crowd makes so epic. Every time Slaughter makes a comeback, Sheik cuts him off with a kick to the midsection. Imagine the added drama Muhammad Hassan's matches could have had this year with something as simple as pointed boots. The payback with Slaughter's steel-toed boot ROCKS and still doesn't deviate from the direction the match had already set. By the time they start attempting covers, they've already destroyed each other and are fatigued and looking for a way out, as opposed to Savage/Steamboat where Steamboat is trying to win from the opening bell. Far more hatred on display here. Slaughter using Sheik's boot against him as a weapon and loading it up couldn't possibly be a more fitting finish. This just may be the best US match I've ever seen. I know it's ***** in my book.