Loss

In about two and a half months or so, I'd like to get this project underway. At that point I'll have a DVD recorder and can start making discs, but there is a lot of preparation that goes into this, so I'd like to start on that now. So I wanted to make a post with some important information and guidelines for future reference. Please PM me if you have any questions. (1) Please have all nominations made in all categories by November 1 so we can assess the logistics of the project. (2) There are two ways to participate -- the first way is to send "x" number of blank discs (we'll know how many soon) to me through snail mail and I'll mail them back to you with all the footage. The second way to participate is through donations. (3) When I say donations, in this sense, I mean footage donations. The way this will work is that if you contribute 5 or more matches -- overall, to any category -- then you'll receive discs in all categories without having to mail blanks to me. Donating footage would mean either sending me the VHS so I can convert it to DVD or burning the footage for me. In lieu of volunteering footage, I will request footage I need, and at that point, you can PM me and I'll tell you how to get it to me. I do have an extensive library myself and I'm hoping that assistance will not be needed *too much*. (4) If there are a large number of matches nominated that no one donates, they may have to be purchased. In that case, I will request, but not require, financial donations to help the cause. It will not be held against you if you can't contribute, but it will be appreciated if you can. I'll be specific with numbers when making any requests -- meaning the footage we need consists of the following, costs "X" number of dollars, and I need "X" number of dollars to be able to purchase it. If you contribute financially, you will receive that category's discs without having to send blank discs to me. (5) If you are in a financial bind and are unable to participate but want to participate, please let me know. The costs should be minimal to you anyway -- postage and discs, no more or less -- but I know that everyone's financial situation has the potential to be different. Contact me through PM if you honestly don't have the money to do this, but really want to. If I provide discs for you for free and you do not participate or do not contribute to the discussion about the footage, you will not be allowed to participate in any of the rest of the categories, and as an admin on this board, I may just ban you from NMB. Of course, there are extenuating circumstances where exceptions may be made, but the key there is communication. (6) If you receive discs and do not contribute, meaning you don't make a list and don't post in any of the threads, you can still participate in the rest of the categories, but you'll have to pay $10.00 per disc. That money will be used to fund the rest of the project. The goal here is for everyone to watch and discuss the footage, and if that's not happening, this is a large waste of time. Okay, now that I've been mean, I can be nice again. I just had to get the ugliness out of the way. I think this will be great fun, and I'll do my best to manage this efficiently, but there may be times when I need help. Thanks to all of you for making nominations and showing great interest in this project.

I don't feel the need to comment on every match at this point, so I'll say something when I think it's warranted. Santana/Bass really surprised me. I haven't seen much of Ron Bass, and the little I have seen of him was working a really silly feud with Beefcake in '88. I did see him have a great match with Barry Windham in Florida, but it's Barry Windham. I now see that he was quite the capable worker and Tito was a great babyface when he wanted to be. Santana has been a strange beast going through these discs. Sometimes, he's really awesome and fired up and sometimes, he really goes through the motions. He had the ability to be great, but really, he was only good. Anyway, this match is wrestled epic, which rules for a midcard match, and they use every trick in the books to maximize the results while minimizing the physical output. This will probably be top half or so. It's not that it's a great match so much as it was a really surprising one. There is a real shortage in 2005 of random guys you can throw together who know how to work like this. Steamboat/Valentine was also terrific. You had Steamboat going all-out with his martial arts gimmick in this match, and in fact, this match is based around that. There were parts of this I didn't like, but believe it or not, I thought Valentine outworked Steamboat here. Great suplexes from him; he works really snug and methodical, and his style is so believable in this match. He gets a lot of flak, but in this match, none is really deserved. Steamboat has a really strong killer instinct here that's very cool, but my main problem is the way he snapped without anything really warranting it. He just rolled outside the ring, walked around with a crazed Ultimate Warrior look on his face, then rolled back in and went apeshit. Sure, it was fun, but it made little sense. This will also be in the top half of my ballot, but I won't have it ranked as highly as I know many already do. I'm also not liking the Rougeaus as a tag team. They have some really good heat-getting spots and some cool athletic stuff, but they don't really seem to be able to switch gears and show a mean streak when they have to. The Rockers match could have been so much better if Michaels being in peril actually seemed perilous. That wasn't a fault of Michaels, that was more the fault of working comedy spots and showboating in what's supposed to be the build to a hot tag. I'm thinking from here forward, instead of commenting on specific matches, I'm far more likely to wait until I've watched all the matches and then write kind of an overall conclusion on some of the more prominently-featured guys when I'm done. Some have stock that has really risen in my eyes (Bass, Horowitz, Slaughter), some have disappointed me (Dynamite Kid), some have maintained my respect (Adonis, Rude, Sheik) and some have surprised me in how inconsistent they really can be (Savage, Steamboat, Santana). More later.

The Bruce Mitchell column was terrific. Thanks for sharing this with us.

For WWF fans, a fun one might be an Arn/Tully, Rockers, Hart Foundation, Demolition round robin. They've all wrestled each other, all within the same time period at that, so it should be easy to put it together.

JR: "How can you say you didn't see that? He pulled something out of his tights!" Hayes: "What are you, a cop? Do you need to see my driver's license?" ***** Hayes to Dark Journey: "Honey, I don't wanna marry you, 'cause I got a wife at home. I just wanna know if you'll take a quick walk down Badstreet."

That's fine, and I promise I'm not trying to be picky, but the very definition of round robin is that "x" number of guys all wrestle each other one time in the exact same style of match. Putting more than one match and including tag matches is fine, but that's not round robin. If you're wanting juniors, I think Benoit/Guerrero/Liger/Otani would be a good set. 06/11/96 - Benoit v Guerrero 11/01/90 - Benoit v Liger 03/20/96 - Benoit v Otani 12/27/95 - Guerrero v Otani 06/12/96 - Guerrero v Liger 03/17/96 - Liger v Otani

They should replace Jerry Lawler with Michael Hayes. I've been saying that for ages and it merely falls on deaf ears, but Hayes, if he's even a fraction as good as a color guy as he has been in the past, would own the show.

I think the idea is to take one match from each group, so you'd have: Benoit v Eddy Benoit v Rey Benoit v Jericho Eddy v Jericho Eddy v Rey Jericho v Rey Tag matches really don't work in the concept, unless you were looking to do the same format with four or five tag teams.

No clue why Slaughter/McGraw 06/20/81 was even included when all it was was an angle. There's an easy #100.

Well, Horner/Horowitz was certainly fun and inoffensive, but it suffered from lack of heat and less time to build. Won't fare quite as well, but I didn't hate it.

08/13/88 - Owen Hart v Barry Horowitz Wow. Depending on what lies ahead, this just might make my top 10 or 15. Really nice match! I didn't know Horowitz was so talented, but he certainly is, bumping well, showing all sorts of chain wrestling moves, playing to the crowd like a pro and getting this masked little guy over huge in LA. Owen is very talented, and this was around the time of his athletic peak, but Horowitz was just awesome here. In some ways, it saddens me that he was a career jobber, but in other ways, he was where he belonged. Underneath guys don't always get the credit they deserve for making the real stars look good, and this is the best example I've ever seen of that. False finishes here will really surprise you, as will the heat by the end of this thing. ***3/4 Anxiously awaiting Horowitz/Horner, which is next on my list.

Tim, I'm curious ... have you come across any other Fantastics matches where they do the double team make a wish spot they did against the Dirty White Boys in the TV match? I'm probably not calling it the right thing, but you know what spot I'm talking about.

Dusty would probably have a case if the time frame were a little difference, as he was a huge star most anywhere in the mid-late 70s. That carried over into the 80s, but he was past his peak by about 1984 or so. I'd agree that Ric Flair is #5. He's the only guy who's been a constant top-level superstar from the time cable TV took off to today. He's not known as well as some of the others outside of wrestling, but anyone who at any point in the past 25 years has watched any wrestling is very familiar with him. He also has more longevity as a superstar than anyone else on the list. Coffey has a point about the Undertaker, but I honestly think Piper and Taker are on the same level as stars. Both played second fiddle to the bigger draws for most of their careers, so it's hard to say.

Rogers and Fulton never faced Morton and Gibson, no, but I believe the "new" Fantastics (Bobby & Jackie Fulton) did in the Virgin Islands in '89. Tim says the match is very disappointing. I wish they had wrestled each other at some point as well. I know they were in a four corners match (MX/RnRs/Fans/Guerreros) in Mid South that is really, really awesome, but that would be out of place on a round robin set. If only we had a time machine ... Flair and Murdoch feuded in the NWA in late 1986/early 1987, but I don't know if any of the matches made TV or not.

Yeah, I'm probably going to watch that later tonight, provided I have the time. I'd definitely like to compare them to each other. I'm curious if the spots where Reed seemed directionless were really because he was directionless or because Flair was calling the match and drawing blanks. The Murdoch match should answer that. Also, a good way to compare Flair and Murdoch as workers -- how do they stack up to each other wrestling the same guy in the same time period for the same length of time?

Depends on when Goldberg signs his contract is what Meltzer said. He's expecting it to be this Monday night.

I'm trying to remember which Rick Rude feud had him pouring mouthwash in his opponent's eyes. It was either Jake or Piper, but I can't remember for sure. I just recall that being pretty fucking hardcore.

Jack & Jerry Brisco v Adrian Adonis & Dick Murdoch - 12/28/84 WOW, what an amazing match! This is sitting pretty at #2 right now for me, and I can't see anything topping it. Beautiful stuff -- total NWA-level tag work, only in the WWF. Really awesome opening and some super-dramatic saves and close calls all throughout. Adonis and Murdoch are one of the best tag teams ever. The Briscoes are just fantastic! I don't even really know where to begin honestly, but matches like this make you question everything you think you know about wrestling. The Hulkamaniacs in the crowd chanting "BULLSHIT!" at the finish cracks me up. I don't even know where to start with favorite spots, but Murdoch reaching to tag Adonis and tripping and falling flat on his face is great, great stuff. I need to watch this again just so I can explain it a little more. ****1/4

It can be. At least Vince and Savage understood and cared about wrestling.

The smart thing to do would be to put him, and their writers for that matter, through OVW, but they'll never do that.

Back on topic, Meltzer has confirmed this story as being true and says Mike Goldberg has told friends he's accepting the offer. Also, on the Canadian feed of Smackdown, they are hyping Monday night as Vince firing someone and says that one should be pretty obvious now. Goldberg knows nothing about wrestling and isn't passionate about the product, and everyone in the company thinks this is a mistake. I'm now wondering about the future of Jerry Lawler. From the way Meltzer is talking and from some of the crypticism in JR's Ross Report, there are some really baffling decisions being made on a daily basis right now backstage in WWE, but Meltzer says it's best to not talk about everything going on just yet.

OUCH! E-mailed Dave Meltzer and this was his response:

I needed a break from 80s WWF footage, so I decided to watch something else. Ric Flair v Butch Reed 08/09/85 Man, you've GOT to see this. One of Flair's best matches ever and definitely Reed's career highlight. Sadly, they show 50:38 of a 60:00 draw and we miss a very important part of the match. 25 minutes in is when the clipping happens, and it couldn't happen at a worse time, as the first half of this match is just FLAWLESS. Reed knows so many ways to work a headlock and Flair knows how to put him over, which shouldn't surprise anyone. The matwork is very 1970s AJPW-ish with Flair totally unable to figure out Reed and everything he attempts always going back to the side headlock. They have some really good things going here that I don't want to spoil, but to spice things up, Reed eventually switches to a front facelock and they start working close nearfalls off of it. There are rough spots. Reed chokes Flair out repeatedly around the 35-45 minute mark, which almost makes Flair seem a little sympathetic at times. Flair also does some of his usual spots, which wouldn't bother me if he didn't do them at such a weird time in the match. They do lose the crowd for a short spell around the 40-45 minute mark, but they quickly bring them back once Reed starts busting out his awesome signature offense -- bulldog, top-rope shoulderblock and lariat, specifically. Reed has the tools to be great, but Flair is really the one holding this together, and it is obvious at times. This isn't as glaring as some carry jobs though; Reed isn't an Ultimate Warrior and is perfectly capable, even if 60 minutes may have been just a *little* too much for him. 45 minutes probably would have been no sweat. ****1/4 for what's shown, but probably would be higher without 10 minutes shaved out of the middle of the match

Rockers v Arn Anderson & Tully Blanchard - 10/31/89 With double the time they got, this probably could have reached top five levels. What's here, when it's not being drowned out by angle, is excellent. Rockers have some great doubleteam moves and all the bumping from Arn and Tully looks so incredibly realistic. I also dig the opening few minutes with the Rockers doing all sorts of fun shock-and-awe stuff. Total burial on the departing Horsemen, but that's wrestling for you I suppose. Fun match. ***1/2 Bret Hart v Bad News Brown - 04/25/88 Well, there's a match that won't make it far at all on my list. I expected far more from both guys, but this was Bret going entirely through the motions and Brown doing all stalling and clowning. I can take stalling when it's working, but this was getting only passing heat, so blah. This will end up close to the bottom of the list. Tito Santana v Butch Reed - 05/12/87 This is definitely a more physical, tough match with more false finishes than the WWF typically had at the time. Tito is at his best when he's selling, and he does a terrific job of it here. Both guys are also over like rover in Anaheim, which says a lot, considering the tepid reaction WWE gets every time they go there now. Jesse Ventura is especially obnoxious on commentary. Reed dominates forever, which reminds me of a poor man's Mike Rotunda vs Brad Armstrong from Clash III with each kickout getting a bigger pop. Anyway, this is built around Reed wearing down Tito's neck to build to a piledriver, but Tito comes back strong when Reed finally attempts the move. GREAT PUNCHES! Awesome heat! Check out Tito's bump off of a punch just before the finish. ***, but I dug this way more than the * rating indicates. It was just getting awesome when it ended.

Who knows if it's true or not, but if it is, Savage and Steph had a fling when she was *ahem* quite young. 1994-ish.