Loss

This is all HHH's fault. In fear of his friend Shawn Michaels being shown up by Styles and Daniels working a better Ironman than he and Angle did on 10/3, Hunter had Kevin Nash over for dinner, poisoned his Chardonnay and as a result, havoc was wreaked on the PPV ... ... ... Oh come on, you know I wasn't serious.

I feel guilty now. DWB definitely had the corner on that market.

My views on Angle were finally etched in stone when the Observer reported last year that he got pissed at Eddy Guerrero for staying down and selling his suplexes because he wanted him to immediately get up so he could give him more. I made the Angle/Doc comparison, because really, Angle by all means should be the far superior worker, but Doc was much better because he was taught how to work in proper fashion, he learned how to work in more than one style, and he was given far better booking. A good comparison is the way Angle worked with Rey Misterio Jr in the tag matches back in 2002 during Smackdown's "hot streak". Compare that to the way Doc would work with Ricky Morton in Mid South in 1985. Doc didn't no sell Morton's offense, but Morton showed fear and the only way he could get any type of opening on him was to outsmart him or run circles around him. With Rey, Angle works comedy spots and parity sequences more reminiscent of a really bad RVD/Lynn ECW match. In fact, if you go back and compare the tag scene on Smackdown to the tag scene on RAW in 2002, I'm convinced that RAW had the stronger tag division. RVD and Kane had better chemistry than they were given credit for at the time, especially when faced off against a good team. Booker and Goldust are the best babyface tag team WWE has had in ... geez ... 10+ years, probably. Their run wasn't as long as the Hardyz, but they were far more consistent. Vitamin C started off really shaky, but Christian came along quite a bit as a worker teaming with Jericho and working opposite Booker and Dustin every night for 3-4 months. In fact, he worked with them for most of the year prior to that as well, as he did tag matches against them with Christian and Test as partners. Anyway, Jericho and Christian were probably better than every tag team on Smackdown with the exception of Eddy and Chavo, and they may have at that point even been better than them. I would have liked to have seen Los Guerreros against Bookerdust to make a fair comparison. What hurt the RAW tag division was the lack of depth. If not for the roster split, 2002 could have been the year to totally reestablish the tag division for the next 3-5 years after the Hardyz, E & C and the Dudleyz all burned out. Jericho/Christian, Benoit/Angle, Edge/Rey, Los Guerreros, Bookerdust ... they had a good thing going, but they murdered it with hotshot booking and a lack of patience and foresight. I didn't mean to switch the subject to that, but I ended up on a tangent. My apologies.

Watching Angle really makes you appreciate Steve "Dr. Death" Williams. Take that however you will.

I think, in essence, that's what made PG-13 work. They were the kind of little punks that you hated but you just couldn't avoid. They were always flirting with the cashier at the Wawa, trying to convince her to sell some cigarettes to them at the age of 17, while you were patiently waiting in line and were about to become late for something you already had planned. If you were a father, PG13 were the guys that you feared your daughters dating, or in many cases, they were the guys that had already impregnated your daughters. If you were the police, you kept a close eye on these guys because they most likely had meth labs set up in their rented trailers. Now, they're in the middle of your wrestling. Oh, hell no! Best white trash gimmick ever, unless DDP gets counted.

Even a month ago, I would have totally backed you on Jake Roberts. I've never been a big fan of his, but I've become a HUGE fan of his after watching the DVDVR WWF discs and the Mid South stuff that's become available. I should really do a post about the difference in opinion I have on him now, because he's become one of my favorites.

Jeff Jarrett.

"Almost everyone"? Who? Maybe we can talk about it if you can give us an example.

Or they could recreate a running gag where every month or so, Nash comes back and wants a title shot, but someone hospitalizes him. He could be the Pete Rose to TNA's Kane.

Rudo, that's some awesome booking right there. Then, they could follow-up with the controversy over whether or not the final decision would stand (if Raven won). They could milk the hype for an executive decision on whether or not Raven remains the champ for at least 1-2 weeks on Impact.

Modern era fans may know him mostly for the angle he worked with Jerry Lawler at Over The Edge '98, but the guy was one of the hugest stars of his era and this is big news. RIP. Hopefully a good bio will come out.

From what I've seen, I'd definitely have to say Vader. Vader was credible and did everything so well. My favorite thing about Vader was that he was able to make his style work in so many vastly different environments without having to make any alterations. That's the mark of someone who has his game together. From the little Don Leo Jonathan I've seen, I could see him trumping Vader at some point in the future if I saw more footage of him. There's a Thesz/Jonathan match from 2/26/55 available in full that I really want to see. There's also a Destroyer/DLJ match from '75 as well, but I don't know if that was past DLJ's peak or not. Other names that never get mentioned that should get more love: Jerry "Crusher" Blackwell -- Had he wrestled somewhere besides the AWA, people would still be talking more about his work than they are. This was a 400 lb guy who looked like One Man Gang but could throw dropkicks and bump as well as anyone. Was terrific at laying out a match and an awesome character worker as well. If Adrian Adonis and Buddy Rose are considered "big men" in the purpose of this discussion, I may have to do some serious thinking about who I think is the best, because I just *might* say Adonis is better than Vader if pressured. *hides* I'm not quite sure about that, though. Not a fan of Brody, but he was better than probably all of the big men who are active today. Don't know if Hansen fits this category or not, but if he does, he's hands down the winner. Ditto someone like Barry Windham who is really too tall to be taking the bumps he took on a regular basis.

Nash's health has caused him some serious problems at inopportune times in the past few years. This appears to be another case of that. As for TNA, it's a shame that the first time they have a PPV after going to Spike, they won't be able to deliver on their advertised main event.

While we're in this thread, Tim, you mentioned a while back that you're almost afraid to go back and watch some other stuff you hold in high regard because the Memphis footage you've been watching has done such a number on you. Would you care to go more in depth on that sometime soon? I think that would be a great read.

The match you're thinking of is the US tag title tournament final against the MX. Were they? The RNR were still having great matches as late as 1995 in SMW. That's about the same timetable as the Fantastics. I think reasonable comparisons can be made. I think the difference comes in the fact that the Fans were able to adapt in more environments, but they didn't have the staying power Morton and Gibson had in the US. I don't know if I'd say the RNRs were better than the Fans in the 90s, but it's definitely a point worth looking into. The loser leaves town SMW cage match from '94 against the Bodies holds its own against all but a very tiny handful of matches. I'm *really* wanting to see some of their 2004-2005 indy matches, meaning the current MX/Rock & Rolls feud that's being booked to headline in indies everywhere. Morton has really stayed good with age, but I'm not sure about Gibson. I haven't seen a worthwhile Bobby Eaton match in over 10 years, but it's been equally long since he was put in a position to have a good match, so who knows? I've not watched any of the Fans matches, but RNRs/DWBs *SUCKED*, or at least the one match I watched did.

Lanny Poffo is one of my favorite eternal curtain jerkers. He had a match with Adrian Adonis on 12/29/85 in Toronto I think that was shot for TV. I got rid of the tape because the VQ wasn't hot, but I think I know where I can replace it. It only goes about five minutes, but it's better than at least half of the matches that made the 80s set at DVDVR. I think it's a good, if abbreviated, example of what both guys are capable of. Also, did you ever get the Memphis DVDs Will converted from my VHS tape? It was a 12/84-03/85 TV comp with tons of Lawler/Savage/Poffo/Fabs on it. One of the matches was Eddie Gilbert & Lanny Poffo against the Fabs. Shown in full from Mid South Coliseum. Not worth going out of your way to hunt down, but it's another good showing from Poffo. I'm thinking he also had one or more TV matches against Ted DiBiase in 1987-1988 WWF that were pretty good, but don't quote me on that. From the 01/90 SNME, watch Hennig and Poffo take on Hogan and Warrior. It's a surprisingly good match, carried almost entirely by the heel side, unsurprisingly.

Simple. JR probably told Meltzer and then Meltzer published it. So they found out when we did. Not that they should be surprised, as Vince has a long track record of blaming whoever is in that position for his tough decisions.

I've argued with everyone at some point. People I like and people I don't like. It's just how it goes.

I noticed you mentioned the arm a few times and how Backlund works it over and doesn't do anything to build to a final move is a problem for you at times. The thing is, not all body part work has to play into the finish. The point of the body part work is to make clear to the viewer what the strategy is. If it's established that the crossface chicken wing is Backlund's finisher and he's working on his opponent's arm, even if he never hits it, we can see that he *intended* to hit it because he was working toward it. If it's a strategy that's communicated well to the viewers, regardless of whether or not it works, I think that's all that matters. On that same note, some of the best finishers aren't built up at all. Destroyer and Ted DiBiase both used the figure four and neither guy typically worked over the opponent's knee in the setup to the move. It didn't take away from the move's effect when it happened. Another thing to take into consideration when watching these matches is the context of the time. Finishers weren't portrayed as the life or death moves that they are now in the 80s, and matches weren't really worked in quite the same way. Squashes usually ended with the big move, but big matches almost never did -- partially because they booked based on hierarchy and the wrestlers had to dig deeper to beat a bigger star, and partially because the idea of a top star doing a job was insane in that era, for whatever reason. Not agreeing or disagreeing with anything you said, just some food for thought. Anyway, Backlund reminds me *a lot* of Destroyer, and that would have been a major dream match for me. It's a shame it didn't happen, at least not in a form that is widely available for viewing now. I get the same feeling watching Backlund when I do Destroyer in that there's lots of really dazzling matwork and athletic feats that are used to shock and surprise the other guy and catch him off his guard. Destroyer made wrestling look so effortless, and Backlund is the same way. They both also communicate a lot of simple joy in all moves, big and small. I love the way Backlund gets that silly smile on his face just from doing a takedown or an armbar or whatever, just because he's having so much fun. I do consider Destroyer far superior based on the limited footage of him that is available, but he and Backlund definitely have the same vibe. Rambling over.

I think Murdoch and Adonis were better, if we're talking WWF runs actually.

Murdoch and Adonis are the best NWA tag team in WWF history.

Randy's dad would have knocked him out with one punch, then carried him to a *** match.

Sort of, but not really. I don't have a problem with HHH winning if he's going to be the top guy. He should win most of his matches. The problem with HHH is that after he wins, the guy's career falls apart, he goes spiraling down to the midcard and he's never in main events again. With Flair, that didn't really happen. In AJPW, Jumbo defeated Kawada and Kobashi many times, but they were still elevated from the losses because they looked strong against him and surprised people by how well they did, and that point was made and remade and emphasized and brought into future matches and expanded upon. HHH can take a couple of bumps for someone like Hurricane, but no one remembers because WWE doesn't do anything to try to follow up on it. One of the criticisms has always been that Flair sells the same for South as he would a Lex Luger or Sting, when Luger and Sting are supposed to be the elite in the promotion and Flair should dismantle South while struggling against Sting and Luger, even if he does still emerge victorious. This was the AJPW model, anyway, when Jumbo was the man on top. I agree that creating a hot false finish where it looks like the unknown may pull off the victory is a sign of a good worker. I just don't think Flair should have been doing it in every single match.

It's baffling that HHH doesn't like Ross, considering the insanely melodramatic lengths JR would go to trying to get over the most boring of HHH matches. Vince has always done that to whoever was in that position. He did it to JJ Dillon and he did it to Jim Ross. The same thing apparently happened with Randy Savage and JJ Dillon in the early 90s with Savage questioning his payoff and Dillon being told to play hardball. When Savage went to Vince, Vince blamed Dillon. The talent relations job is one I wouldn't wish on anyone. I too am hoping Ross will air his dirty laundry. I haven't been a fan of his in some time, but with this kind of treatment, he deserves it. HHH should never call anyone unprofessional again, considering the way he roughed up JR.

I miss heel Trish. I HATE that they turned her babyface again upon coming back.