Loss

Smart Mark Video needs to be thinking in this direction.

Last year, there was talk before the Andre The Giant battle royal of having Ziggler win just to make the live crowd happy, but not to give him a push off of it or anything. So they know he's over and just don't want him to be. The "brass ring" talk is Vince's greatest work in some ways, although no one is buying it but him.

I'm only bumping this thread to say that the responses -- particularly from JvK in post #34 -- have been really helpful for me in sorting out the differences in our schools of thought. That might actually be my favorite criteria post from the whole project.

Is it something about Vince that makes people not want to shut the door on WWE? If people were as masochistic 15 years ago, we'd still have a WCW.

Ties seem okay in theory until you have eight and nine-way ties. I agree with higher average vote.

Probably because they don't want to use the word "death".

I asked in the "Which women are you voting for?" if Sara Del Ray deserved nomination. I've never actually seen one of her matches.

If it wasn't obvious to their audience, it was virtually pointless to do it. That's not really an example of great psychology on its own, as much as it was the ability to work a solid series of matches. A valuable skill to be sure, but I wouldn't point to it as an example of strong psychology.

I think there's a gap between Flair's ability to think on his feet and his ability to explain that in words. It doesn't mean there was no thought put into how he worked as much as it means he's just not very good at explaining it because to him, wrestling was instinctive. It's why Bobby Eaton was a great worker and a bad trainer. He couldn't explain why he did what he did. He just knew what to do. Shoot interviews are bumpy terrain in my view, because some are better at showing than telling. And telling really isn't part of the job description of being a complete pro wrestler.

I should clarify and say *mostly* coincidence without announcers pointing it out.

I tend to think it's all coincidence unless the announcers specifically mention it, since their job is to point out everything we're supposed to notice.

The issue with Austin helping Shane win is that he'd have to attack Undertaker to do it, and I can see them wanting to avoid that because it might accidentally get people interested in a match that's never going to happen.

1984 Mid South was also unique in that Bill Watts *wanted* his talent to read the WON because he felt it was a great way for them to learn the business. He didn't have a problem with people like Cornette or Ross talking to Dave, and in old WONs, you even see them thanked for information by name at times. By 1992, Watts had done a 180 on that, probably because Dave didn't love his product nearly as much as he did years earlier. My theory on that is that it's something that probably has been revealed by now, or something that if Dave was asked about directly, he would be comfortable revealing now. I'll ask on Twitter.

Dave said just a few years ago (before Bret returned to WWE) that there was still one person who had a major role who swore him to secrecy on it until after he died.

And when he found out those details, it should have been a WON story with no beating around the bush, even if it was years later. Dave sitting on a story like that would reflect so terribly on him that I just don't think it happened. I tend to think Dave just chose his words poorly.

The best but not the greatest. I can buy that.

And something like that not being reported when it happened is a massive blunder, if that is indeed true.

Where's her UWF run? Her 1989-1991 would be an equivalent.

What do people think of the Tiger Mask comparison?

Not sure Kurt Angle ever did anything as cool as "Get Low".

Is that about selling? Most wrestlers do logical things in the ring -- hit moves and go for the win.

Toyota showed in her formative years that she was fundamentally sound and even capable of having great matches without the excesses that would eventually define her. I don't know that Sabu ever demonstrated anything like that. I also don't know that Sabu was really defined by his attempts at breakneck pacing. Toyota was very good in her early years, but she wasn't on track to have a remarkable career until she reinvented herself. Also, around 1995 or so, Toyota started adding tables to some of her matches, but she was winding down (from her critically acclaimed period if not her career) at that point anyway. I think the better comparison than Sabu is Satoru Sayama. They have similar strengths and weaknesses -- almost exactly the same in fact. If you don't see it for Sayama, you probably don't see it for Toyota, and the inverse is likely true as well.

It would be amazingly hilarious if Shane worked as a frontman to buy the company and it was revealed after the fact that the deal was financed by Ted Turner. You want to be "ruthless" toward Vince, that's how you do it.

If that's true, that's a ginormous story that was never covered and would reflect awfully on the wrestling media.