Loss

Dave was implying a real life story where Shane tried to take the company from his dad.

I still want to know what Dave meant when he mentioned that Shane tried to ruthlessly take it from him years ago and it didn't work. What did he do?

Duggan wasn't trying to have good matches in Mid South either. At least I don't think he was. If anything, I think the WWF during that era had far more sense of calculation behind everything. He just happened to be having better matches working the house style. The WWF house style wasn't conducive to great matches, no doubt, but a select few guys still had them in spite of that, which demonstrates that (1) it was possible and (2) the ones who did are deserving of praise for delivery in a landscape where they should not have been able to do so. Hogan's black mark in my eyes is that he actively dumbed down the house style in the WWF. Hogan strikes me as being to wrestling what Chili's and Outback Steakhouse are to restaurants.

We can only assume most wrestlers who weren't as good in the WWF chose to scale it down because of a grueling schedule, which makes guys like Savage and Steamboat who were much closer to their ex-WWF standard even more impressive.

It bugs me that Liger was ever regarded as a "highspot artist" because it's not really how he worked his matches. But it's true that he was, and that's a different topic anyway.

Duggan chose not to be Duggan in the WWF. That makes it seem like if he had been, he wouldn't be over.

I was talking to Dylan and Grimmas last night and we decided to make the month of April an event here at PWO. So rather than just a dry countdown of where everyone ranked, expect the trek to number one to be just as fun as the discussion threads themselves. Look for plenty of podcasts, columns, roundtables and possible other features focusing on the Greatest Wrestler Ever project, along with a countdown that is sure to keep everyone on their toes. We'd love to hear from anyone who has a unique perspective on the nature of the project overall, or on hardcore wrestling fandom. For my part, I'll be writing about how Dr. Strangeloss learned to stop worrying and love the GWE project, along with providing a then-and-now look at Smarkschoice's 2006 list and our 2016 list. We welcome contributions from anyone who'd like to write or discuss similar topics. Hang on tight. We hope April will be a fun month!

If you compare Hogan to someone like Duggan in Mid South, this is where I think the proof is that he could have been better and still been Hogan. Duggan as a top babyface wasn't doing much more than Hogan in terms of bumping or wrestling moves, but there was a grittiness and intensity to it all that gave it that extra umph that makes watching 1984 Duggan matches enjoyable in 2016. Hogan has matches I'd say that about too, no doubt, but I would actually argue that his popularity started to wane as his working style became more automated. I think Hogan working in the spirit he was from 1984-1987 all the way into the 90s would have changed my perception of him. It definitely would have helped him in the 1990s, where he'd only dust off the actual wrestler under the gimmick on special occasions. I love the Bash at the Beach match with Flair, and Hogan worked a great match with Tenryu in late 1991. In both of those, he put in the effort but he still managed to be true to his facade. At one point, Hogan seemed like a real guy who just happened to be larger than life. Then he started marketing helmets and always wearing red and yellow and doing just enough to get by. His whole presentation became a saccharine one, which was what made WCW fans turn on him the moment he walked through the door. While still popular long after the peak of Hulkamania, he was never 1985 popular as a babyface again.

Those are directly inverse career trajectories.

Toyota hit a high level more often than all but a few wrestlers in history. The case against her is definitely not one of mediocrity, but rather that in doing so, she created a body of work where much of it didn't withstand the test of time. I think this is where watching in context can be helpful -- if you watch a bunch of 1993 wrestling, for example, and see what Toyota was doing in comparison to wrestlers in the WWF, WCW, AAA, All Japan and New Japan during the same time frame, it's very easy to say "This isn't my thing, but I still respect it and I'm comfortable calling it great anyway". My ranking of Toyota bears that out, but I'm curious if other people who have watched multiple yearbooks find themselves looking at matches the same way.

Actually, ratings were down after Survivor Series 2014 when HHH and Stephanie were off of TV, and they bounced back when they returned to TV. There were other factors that I think had a greater effect than HHH and Stephanie being absent or present, but it's easy to draw that conclusion when looking at the numbers.

I think ultimately, Vince does something overzealous after Undertaker destroys Shane, and it's offensive enough to Undertaker that he's compelled to do a job. That finish would be much easier to pull off without the Cell, because Undertaker could just walk away from the match and purposely lose by countout instead of having to eat a pinfall.

Shane handing over power to Daniel Bryan, who shakes things up by bringing in NXT favorites, would make a lot of sense. It ain't happening, though.

Well, considering how much he has challenged himself and how much sheer footage he has watched for this project, attacking JVK eventually gets old.

Even if that is the case, Rey being around as early as 1989 and as late as 2016 means he has been privileged to work at a high level in so many settings that wouldn't be possible in Danielson's career. It's not a huge gap. It's the only thing I could think of to distinguish them.

The things that made him popular were his size, physique and charisma. He needed to work a match that made sense for that, but he could have been Super Workhorse Hulk Hogan and he'd still be Hulk Hogan. Steve Austin's success wasn't dependent on him being such a hard worker in the ring, but he was anyway.

Hogan is worse because he could have been better and still been Hulk Hogan.

I don't know if I feel similarly quite yet. Can you define "less privileged", naming specific wrestlers who you think are?

Expanding on my previous post, I would never vote for greatness that I can't see with my own eyes just because that's the reputation. But sometimes, I can see it and it just doesn't appeal to my sensibilities as a fan. That doesn't make it somehow worse than the things that do. I would rank someone where I can see the greatness for myself, even if it does nothing for me.

Voting for people like Inoki is an expression of humility from the voter, an acknowledgment that there's more to being great than just the voter's personal enjoyment. It's something I've struggled to put properly into words, because I think the reaction seems to be to respond by taking it to the other extreme that people who think like that are somehow slaves to canon. It's not that either. For me, it was a list driven by personal opinion while also trying to acknowledge that greatness isn't defined by my personal enjoyment. Wrestling doesn't exist solely to please me-me-me, so someone can be great whether I like watching them or not.

I think throughout this process, I was imagining Bryan higher, but when I started comparing their careers, I couldn't justify it. In the battle of trailblazing, prolific careers from undersized guys, they are 1 and 1a, but Rey edges Bryan out. I keep thinking of things to write about Rey, then thinking "Well yeah, but you could say the same about Bryan", so I think the difference for me just came down to Rey having more longevity.

I will say that from day one, Grimmas has made the project accessible to those even who do not post at PWO. So it has been part of the approach to this project from the beginning.

Get over wrestlingforum.com!

They moved the announcers away as part of an effort to distinguish Raw from Smackdown, the week after Bischoff came in. If my memory doesn't fail me, there for a few weeks, Raw felt a lot like Nitro and it wasn't just the position of the announce booth and Bischoff being there.

I understand why they do it, but I hate that every wrestler is so polite to clear the announce table of monitors before throwing someone on it.