Smack2k

JCP would have still gone down the path it did, they were spending money hand over foot, and Maggie extending the great 86 year into 87 and maybe into 88 wouldnt have stopped that blood letting, just give them another plane and more un-neccessary purchases with no one stopping it... As for Magnum, he would have gotten the NWA Title at some point in '87, that is a given after all the interviews, documentaries that have been done, but could he carry that title and be "THE MAN"? I dont think so, I really dont. Magnum wasnt at that level on the mic that was needed to carry a promotion and really put people in seats as THE man. Sure, his chase and Flair interviews would have gotten him to the match and the title win, and even some re-matches..but then what? Being the flag bearer means you have to be able to put people in those seats NO MATTER WHAT..and I dont see Maggie doing it. One other thing that I think would have been his biggest undoing was his look..By 1989 , 1990, would Magnum have been as sexy to the women with that same Magnum PI look, and on a National Stage with WCW, would he have had that appeal to lead a company ala Hogan or Flair? No. Just my thoughts....

Did Robert Gibson, 1997, work in a "lightweight" match against his former partner on RAW? I think not...Fulton for the win.. All joking aside, I go with Fulton as well, I would actually call him the best teamate on the Fantastics..he was a better seller to me during both team's high points and really was interchangeable with Rogers in the team, where Gibson was "Ricky Morton's parter in the RNR". Fulton's mic work was MUCH better to and 100 times clearer, although Gibson growing up with a partially deaf family (as I think I read) didnt help him either... Fulton's selling in the US Tag Title match vs. MX in '88 when he is bleeding buckets, takes a NASTY bump outside the ring on the metal barrier thing that surrounded the ring (helped by Stan Lane), and telling the ref not to stop the match was OUTSTANDING and gives him the overall edge as well. I cant think of one Gibson moment that stands out like that, as I can with TONS of Mortons.

I am NOT an Orton fan in ANY way...cant stand him on the Mic or in the ring since he left Evolution in 2004...I will preface this saying I havent seen much WWE since early 2012, but I NEVER found him entertaining and he made me want to change the channel everytime he came out or showed up on TV..I say that to say this.. I LOVE the Orton / Cena Match at Summerslam 2007...I really do..Its paced well, they have a GREAT story in the ring (and its their first big match, so there is nothing for them to fall back on at ANY time in the match that they did before, and it ends Clean and in a beilevable way...It's one of my Top 10 matches of all time (this from a die hard fan of all territories from 85 - end and WCW / WWE weekly through 2011). Laugh if you want, but I love it, even with my intense hatred of the Orton character. I watched that Summerslam alone in my man cave and clearly remember it. I was enjoying some greens that night as I usually did back then when I watched it, so a few years later I thought, "Watch it again as maybe that was why you loved it!".. Nope, still love it today... As for the Bragging Rights 2009 tap out with 2 seconds left, I kind of look at it as if that was a real fight, no time or countdown is gonna get in the way of pain being too excruciating to give up. Sports Entertainment wise, it was kind of dumb, but looking at it as real, it made sense. Plus I was there and the younger kids around me were in the palm of WWE's hand during that last 30 seconds and when Orton tapped at 2 sec, they lost their minds...

I also think the 1995 ECW would have worked, as they still had many different types of wrestlilng going on and these three could have brought another flare. Candido did end up having a really good run there and Pritchard was in some nasty feuds down south and hang in with anyone.. I just think about them coming to WWF in late '96 as themselves with Tammy, against Bulldog / Owen, Furnas / Lafon, and you now have 3 decent teams in there as well as the other teams in 97 like the Godwinns, Rockers, Nation of Domination (they could tag (Crush and Savio), LOD came in March 1997, even Vader and Mankind could have tagged as heels for a few more months from Feb - June, even with Mankind getting the title shot before he got into the feud with Helmsley... I dont know, I know that era was getting better each month as 97 went on, but they could have been another great team in there that could have made the division a little better instead of becoming a trophy for two main eventers by the middle of the year.

Do you think a few years later, or earlier, or even with a different gimmick, Candido and Pritchard could have made it as a tag team that would be remembered today as great? This of course without the Bodydonnas gimmick, but even with Sunny still with them. Candido and Sunny as their SMW roles and Pritchard as Dr. Tom, with a completely different gimmick in say 1996 or later?

OK, Does ANYONE know of ANYWHERE that has the original TV dates of WCCW TV, both syndicated and the Ft. Worth shows? I woudl love to see them in order to find out what I do and dont have... Of all the major promotions, this is the ONE that I have never seen weekly results with dates...outside the Legends first run dates (but those are re-runs!) Thanks...posted this on a few other forums as well to see what is out there...

Sure, they'll jump up, but to what, a low 3? And why? Only cause its Wrestlemania time and WWE knows they'll get that number, so they play it safe over the last 6-7 years and stay the course with the PG-esque boring stuff... They, or TNA, need something to really kick pro wrestling back into gear...what it is, I dont know right now, but I doubt WWE, who doesnt even call themselves wrestling will be the answer going forward. They make money, like someone else said, why take a risk with the chance to make less coming out of it? The company has become just like another poster said, a large corporation that is at Step 4 right now.... CMfunk, what do you think about the way the wrestlers are handled now, with complete scripts (written by TV writers) and matches planned out the whole way through? Just curious as I like your differing opinions here!

You said a ton....like a lot of us, we will get excited for Mania because Rocky comes back, or Brock comes back (neither regular WWE guys). The WWE is really at the point where without some of their old stars, they have nothing for their big show anymore... Hell, Taker may not be there this year due to injuries and its a HUGE deal to WWE. A legend like that (and Rocky) should enhance Wrestlemania, not be the focus of it in 2012.

You know anarchistxx, that was the one other thing I left out..that everyone is based on "look", not talent. They are probably missing out on SOO many good guys because they arent adonis's or have that perfect sculpted look. And they have Punk right there to prove it doesnt matter... Also, the overacting and overreacting in their given "gimmick" is another piece of evidence to let these guys be who they are and talk for themselves...and if they cant..bye bye, find ones that can. And I also believe that the internet's growth hurt WWE and all other companies as it got bigger and bigger and more people started to look behind the curtain and these guys became just like a lot of other celebrities with all their off screen stuff brought up. They guarded those secret's with soo much passion in the past, and now it doesnt matter... A guy can look like he is gonna be good, but you can find out quickly he has no hope online. And yes, not a ton of people use the internet for wrestling news, but thoes that do will likely tell others aroudn them about it.

WIn or Lose, its absolute shit that she has to continually be brought up with WWE and its past. Her politics and views are what matter, not that she was part of a bloody storyline or other things. Who she supports for president, that matters, so its nice to see that ad (no matter who you like) the ad is straight forward and doesnt attack anyone else. But that is America, who gives a shit about the real facts, lets drag skulls out of the closet and focus on those and waste more time...

I posted this on a group on Facebook when someone mentioned another bad WWE ratings and reasons why, including what else was on TV. And always hearing Vince is gonna shake things up.. Wanted to know what you all thought about this, any other reasons or comments about it? They could have run unopposed last night and it wouldnt have mattered. We keep hearing "shakeups", what can they do? Honestly, what can they "shakeup" if they continue this same path. No amount of dedication or idea sessions, firings, is gonna change it. We have a PPV this weekend built and named after a match that at one time was basically called "Hell's Chamber" by JR. There will be multiple matches in this cell and 0 people will bleed? Whether or not Ryback wins, Punk should be a mess after that match...That says it all for me...there is nothing they can do to "shake this up" as long as they worry about what sentatorial candidates think of their product.. Did WWE give a FUCK about that stuff in the late 90's? Hell no, and it got them attention, good and bad, leading to BIG ratings and incredible TV. Plus, as I mentioned last night, we have the following. Before I mention them, i will say what these athletes do is incredible and something I admire them for and could never do. That being said.: 1. Wrestlers who work a whole match together in the back piece by piece and then perform it, instead of an idea and then going on feeling takes something away in the match. I know some of them cant do it another way...make them learn. Punk and Danielson surely could do it, encourage it. 2. No Competition. As long as TNA isnt close in terms of popularity (which it isnt) nothing will change. Plus, TNA is most of a hard core product that I like, but they need better overall ideas and bookers. A huge "shakeup" there could be the real answer. 3. The talent really has no formal national training like the past territorial system. Up through the last boom and the beginning of the down period, the lead dogs in the WWE were the end of the group that went through all those tough times in the territories and worked hard for what they got, partied hard and performed hard. It was a different type of person then, if you get what I mean. Did these guys train hard and work harder than I ever could. Yeah they did, but almost NONE of them went through what the old guys went through, even getting into the business meant taking a ton of lumps, like being beaten in. But that is America everywhere anymore..dont make anyone really bust their ass for it, you might hurt their feelings or get sued for it.. Bull shit... 4. Finally, the company itself. They arent a wrestling company anymore, they are an entertainment company. Shit, they arent World Wrestling Entertainment anymore, they are simply WWE. The word itself is gone They have TV writers with no wrestling background booking for the most part, writing scripts for guys to read...how can I get really behind that? You can memorize a script..good for you..where is the passion in your character and drive. And on and on.... For all those reasons, that rating is NEVER gonna change considerably under the current product. Drop the time to earlier so your younger kids can watch and that may help..but for us, outside a good thing here and there, with the current day, the days of greatness are gone. I really believe to change it, stop watching it and they'll be forced to change to stay alive..the same way I feel about Pirates fans here in Pittsburgh, you want true change..stop going to fireworks night with Boyz II Men Performing...

Yeah, I completely agree with you, but I thought it was interesting how viewership tended to grow after that show. Most of their biggest ratings were during the split NWO time in 1998 all the way through the Hogan / Warrior stuff, so it made sense why they kept doing that angle, as it was getting viewers. I know what you are saying about the tipping point and such, but I have seen many people over the years talking about how bad WCW was getting by 1998, with the split NWO and such, and I agree, but new viewers looked to be tuning in to see it and stuck around until March 1999.

They kept saying they were trained to think pin and that was why they kept trying... This one is a good match and they stiff the shit outta each other. I HATE the looks Garvin gives Valentine when he has the "Hammer Jammer" duirng Valentine's figure 4 attempt. With all the shit Valentine put Garvin through in the last part of 1989, Garvin should have taunted Valentine a little more intense and then continued to find ways to beat his ass....

I really dig this match, but a good part of it is nostalgia as I rememeber watching that match on TV during the 1990 year in review after Arn's LONG title reign which saw him have quite a few good to great defenses on TV. These guys work really well together in this match, as well as the couple they had earlier that summer, which were much shorter.. What angers me about this match is the fact that instead of pushing Zenk as a true challenger that takes the best the champions got and finally beats him for the title, and comes out looking great, they spend a ton of time talking about Arn's many injuries from his wars with Doom that fall / winter (ribs and hand / wrist). It looked like Zenk was lucky to get Arn at a down point and only won because of that. Take his quick loss back to Arn on TV a few weeks later in a quick match, and Zenk was cooked as a single's wrestler with any hopes of being a threat in the fans eyes...

Was looking through the ratings history of WCW Nitro and noticed some strange things in terms of their numbers against when most say it was going down.. 1. Starrcade 97 / 1998 - Nitro was still pulling REALLY good numbers (higher than 97 on average) and they had a spike during the NWO split, so although it seemed they were making the NWO drag on and on, when looking at the ratings, you can see why they continued with it. High 4's, low 5's and even a 6 sneaks in in November. Heading to Starrcade, things looked good. They were trailing the WWF, but some weeks it was only by a few tenths and others a bit more, but still had nice numbers..so the Starrcade 1997 end didnt really take them down a lot. It did hurt them from really taking over, but didnt turn things negative. 2. Starcade 1998 Goldberg Loss / Finger Poke of Doom 1999 - Heading out of the Jan 4 1999 Fingerpoke, Nitro's numbers stayed good and even went up a little. Jan 4- 4.9 Jan 11 - 5.0 (they went up a tenth after the Fingerpoke) After this, they fluctuate from mid 4's to mid to high 5's (with one 3.9) through Mar 8, when they pulled a 5.7. Following the 5.7, WCW numbers began to drop quickly with a 3.9 on March 15 and from then on a few low 4's and mostly low and high 3's as highs from that point on and continued to go down from there until WCW's end. March 8 was Scott Steiner vs. Booker T (TV Title) / Rey Mysterio's giant killer push as well as a main event of Goldberg vs. Ric Flair (with Nash and Hogan taking over the announcing) and another ending of the NWO A and B Teams attacking Flair and Goldberg as Nitro went off the air. That weekend, Uncensored 1999 was on PPV and after that, literally over two million and some viewers said "Fuck This" I am done and didnt come back. What's strange is that Uncensored (except the strange cage match with 100 different rules) was a decent show. March 15 had a Flair / Goldberg vs. Hogan / Nash main event but still only got a 3.9 So looking at the TV numbers, some of the things commonly said to have killed WCW really doesnt look that way after checking the numbers out, it was their issues of how they booked the re-united NWO, and even that was given a few months chance, including the Hogan / Flair sereis that good a decent buyrate and ratings on TV. I know this isnt 100% perfect reasoning, but interesting to see from a ratings standpoint how people were watching Nitro and when they actually left...after a Hogan vs. Flair title match! Funny to see what took it to the top (Flair bringing WCW into mainstrean and then Hogan heel turn taking it to next leve) also be the last BIG thing they did in terms of ratings. Also, just thinking of this, there is one reason that is given that carries water - Nash's booking killed WCW...the time frames match up with the ratings!

Flair / Funk I Quit was the 1989 Clash 9 Show "New York Knockout" Great Match - Great line by Solie - "2 Words - "I Quit"" Fuckin incredible

I thought the plan was to make Hogan champ and run Hogan vs. Flair for the aborted NBC special and have Goldberg disappear into the mid-card. You nailed it!!! Cause that was SOO much better than Nash's "plan" I still wonder though if Goldberg didn't slice him arm up, if the 2000 plan, which looked to be what Nash had said about early 99 would have done well.. I think it would have....but without Goldberg and Bret back to back....it was over from the start.. I still think its one of wrestling's great mysteries as to what MAY have happened with NWO 2000...They knew they were getting killed in rating, so maybe they do go the Goldberg goes through everyone route on the way back to the title with some great undercard possibilities as well, even without the Radicals.

That would have been PHENOMINAL... Hell, I wouldn't mind KEvin Sullivan showing up in TNA as their leader back in his crazy role....It would be different at least and if run right could really do some cool stuff...

Was there supposed to be someone different? Ha, what if Aces and 8's were Vince...now THAT would be groundbreaking.....

Yeah, that is the "higher power" part I mentioned...It was a mess...I still wonder today if they had someone else in mind for the higher power and it fell through or if this was the idea all along... But it made NO SENSE!!

Yeah, it will be...but for some reason (stupidity I'd guess), I continue to HOPE that they will finally do an angle like this good again. And this time not hotshot it or add un-necessary items to it (more people, TNA guys turnning, etc..) leading to a final showdown (War Games Anyone?) and then move on.... Will that happen? Probably not...The leader will either kill it or it will get hot and Hogan will stick himself in there (like Vince was the Higher Power in 1999 even though it made 0 sense) to get more attention.. I had a BAD Thought today...what if it is Brooke Hogan..mad at her dad and wanting to get revenge...Good god, that woudl be HORRID...and THEN a few months later Hogan is shown as the true "pupper master" working with Brooke all along...

After last night, I am enjoying this, BUT also worried.. I mean, its a LOT like the NWO angle (With Aces and 8's coming in and getting a match with TNA..if they win, they stay..if not, they leave) BUT, what worries me is that after Hogan said it would be him and Sting, they said no Hogan, he had to watch...I immediately started thinking "Oh God, please dont make Hogan the leader, PLEASE!!!" So that worries me BIG TIME after last night...if TNA does this...they deserve to fail. I also thought why would youf goal be to become a part of TNA after just beating everyone down week after week? But then I was thinking maybe they want to destroy it from within. IN 1996, Hogan turning on WCW...Awesome. In 2012, Hogan turning on TNA, Hogan even being heavily involved in this....COMPLETE SHIT This has promise, but like I said before...IT ALL DEPENDS ON THE LEADER. With all the lawsuit stuff going on with Scott Steiner right now, that would be a decent swerve for it to have been him the whole time. Especially after ALL The trashing he's been doing to Hogan and TNA around the horn. That and I really dig Big Poppa Pump!

That would be SWEET!!! Not really, but at the same time, REALLY!!!

Yeah, I think I bought in due to the VERY slow burn as its something we rarely see in wrestling these days. I went and watched a ton of this build over the day today and, for me, I am actually very interested in something for only the third time in YEARS (Nexus arrival on RAW (which was ruined quickly) / Punk in June 2011 (which they also fucked up quickly after MITB). So do I think this will also be fucked up and stupid in the end? Yes I do....but for now, I am hoping otherwise until it happens.. If its ANY already existing TNA guys, then only a GREAT storyline reason woild make it good for me. If its someone from outside (maybe ROH / another Indy / etc..) color me interested in where it goes....

Can someone tell me the following as I am just getting into this angle.. When was the original beginning of this (the first mention of it, like Hall on 5/27/96 Nitro)? What are some of the great stuff to check out so far? Has ANYONE been revealed yet on TV? Thanks!