Bix

Really? Still? What awful forums are you hanging out on lately? I'm referring to stuff like the letter in Torch Feedback after Survivor Series when Michaels used the crossface. I forgot about that. That was horrifying. Who are these people and why didn't you slap them?

Really? Still? What awful forums are you hanging out on lately?

So it seems that Flair mentioned a bunch of the Horsemen by name, including Chris Benoit. Live reports are saying that while there were some boos but mostly cheers. Seriously...what the fuck is wrong with people? I get that there are some idiots who want to separate the wrestling performances from the human being who murdered his family before killing himself, often so they can watch his matches, but c'mon...CHEERING AT THE MENTION OF HIS NAME? That is just remarkably fucked up. It reminds me of when Roman Polanski, absent so he wouldn't get arrested for fleeing the country so as to avoid 50 years in prison for drugging and violently raping a young girl, got a ridiculous standing ovation for winning a Best Director Oscar. That may have been worse, as there seemed to be a sentiment of "YEAH! FUCK THE GOVERNMENT FOR GOING AFTER THIS GREAT ARTIST WHO HAPPENED TO DRUG AND VIOLENTLY RAPE A LITTLE GIRL!!!!!!!" and I'm not sure if the HOF crowd was leaning that way or just "BENOIT DID BAD STUFF BUT WAS STILL TEH GOOD WERKER AND U CANT 4GET IT!!!" Still, that's pretty terrible, too. What the fuck is wrong with people? I'm reaching the point where I don't give a shit about people stereotyping wrestling fans because it's largely true and people like most of this board's posters are exceptions. It's too bad that we may feel the need to hide our fandom, but idiots like the "YAY BENOIT!" crowd make it a necessity.

This ability exists? Aside from the obvious Lance Storm jokes?And if it did exist, it would indeed be really impressive.

Well, Gordy wasn't a superheavyweight at first.

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/sports/orl-...,7829838.column In 2008, is there really any reason for this? It's beyond petty at this point. Pro wrestling exists, is a work, and is more popular than amateur wrestling. Get over it and embrace UFC, at least that's constuctive.

As far as the original list that I made w/ Loss in an AIM chat, I was thinking of wrestlers who were smooth, largely psychologically sound, and just looked at home like a veteran. Jumbo Tsuruta: Looked credible as a rookie in world title matches, also benefitted from being pretty explosive for the early '70s. Ricky Morton: Sold like you'd expect from Ricky Morton right out of the gate. He said in his original shoot interview with Highspots that he really learned how to work when he teamed wth Ken Lucas in Texas, but he clearly had a good base for it from the beginning. Barry Windham: The Flair quote sticks out. He just moved so perfectly and did everything you'd want from a wrestler well. Bobby Eaton: Nothing is available of him as a rookie, but legend has it that he was so great at the beginning that he carried George Gulas to a great tag team.. Owen Hart: Long considered the gold standard for great rookies based on his initial full time run (he had wrestled part time for a few years in England and under a mask in Canada). Eddy Guerrero: I think this was a Loss pick as he debuted in '87 and the earliest footage is from '89. Still, it was early on and he was good enough that Terry Funk requested that he be flown into Atlanta so 5'6" Eddy, smaller than anyone on US TV other than WCW jobber Lee Scott (and maybe still shorter than Scott) could get a tryout and so Funk could have a great competitive squash. As Dave Meltzer always tells the story, he would've been hired if he was taller. Terry Gordy: Loss forgot to mention him. I think Vincent Verhei of F4W put it best in a review of a Freebirds vs Rock 'n' Roll Express match from Mid-South: "So, in summary, the Rock & Roll Express were the most beloved tag team ever, Buddy Roberts was an awesome heel tag team wrestler and Terry Gordy was put on earth by God for the express purpose of being a phenomenally great professional wrestler. I feel kind of guilty saying that like it's a good thing, considering his eventual fate, but Jesus Christ, he was awesome."

http://muchnick.net/babylon/2008/03/28/ben...s-last-message/

You forgot the Finlay match. That was a lot of fun.

RE's mention of Dynamite Kid makes me think that Davey Boy Smith is a good choice, too, as he's as good as any of the teen idol babyface technicians on World of Sport. His matches with Clive Myers and Jim Breaks were as good as anything you'd ever see from a rookie, and while being in with 2 all time greats surely had to do with it, he kept up with them every step of the way. Ben Bassarab was incredibly smooth as a rookie. At the rate he was going, he would've been an all-time great if he didn't quit a few years in. Pat Tanaka seemed really comfortable at beginning as a JCP job guy and looked then great when he got his first push in Memphis. Jeff Jarrett seemed to get it right away, and was a great wrestler early on mixing Memphis babyface shtick/punches with athletic highspots like an incredible dropkick. He who shall not be named was good early on, but others in Stampede like Hase, Bassarab, and Owen were better. When Loss and I were discussing this, I mentioned that while Angle got good fast, he wasn't a natural like the others that we've named, if it makes any sense. He had a certain awkwardness and didn't necessarily look comfortable yet. When I think about this topic, Flair's line from his DVD about Barry Windham comes to mind: "Barry fit me like a glove." It's a certain smoothness and comfort level that's really hard to describe but you know it when you see it.

Not to be a spelling Nazi, but I really hope you meant "grizzled," as "grizzly" takes on a different, more horrifying meaning that I don't think most of the board watches Harley Race matches for.

His point though was that if it was a common Race spot, there's no reason to assume that Flair called it.

I haven't seen any of it, but Phil really liked the Fujinami match.

Where can I find a copy of Ware-Barbarian? Maybe Duggan was the wrong comparison. One Man Gang may be a better one as neither got as bad as Duggan ended up but Koko was still more messed up by booking than the other two (well, Gang at least as he was more WWF limiting how their big guys work to brick walls and not mobile, bumping athletes. Duggan was hampered by booking but in a different way as he was turned into a blithering idiot character in addition maybe to the WWF seemingly forcing wrestlers to work too loose much of the time). He was presented as low level from the beginning, debuting in a team with a job guy. As a guy who lost all the time to much bigger wrestlers he was limited to false hope spots in competitive matches, not really able to look like he was on the level of his opponents, and it hurt him stylistically. I don't know if he had a WWF match or individual performance as good as the match with Ron Sexton that I've nominated for the Memphis set, which is not necessarily great match but a super Ware one man show.

I like the Von Erichs but Koko in Memphis was much, much better. I can see the comparison if you're used to WWF Koko, though.

As awesome as Koko was, he was ruined by the WWF at near-Duggan levels. Aside from the MSG match with Tito Santana where he played heel, I can't think of anything he did there worth tracking down. It's unfortunate.

It was better than any Race headbutt that I've ever seen but my comment was intended as more of a minor point in a semi-joking manner. I only brought it up because Phil was unaware that Lawler had used such a move and was using a different one as a frame of reference to compare to Race's headbutt.

OK, I don't recall you criticizing Terry Gordy for doing the same move to Lawler in the Fereebirds tag or criticizing Lawler for not selling the neck like death even though the Birds did a choice job of pounding the neck for the next 5 minutes and him giving the nonchalant tag to Idol. That shit doesn't bother me but it is a wierd point for you to make to criticize Race but not Gordy for doing the same thing. I think I was considering it but since as you said, it played into the match well and I think it was in the middle of me watching matches where the piledriver was sold oddly and less protected so it didn't bother me as much. Plus, Race used it as a total throwaway highspot as opposed to the Freebirds following up on it. The context was different, plus it was just part of my criticism of his performance in the match. Well, I guess I have to take away my Rising Pick for Koko because he had a shit match with a legend. That makes absolutely no sense if Race's performance was the issue and Koko's was fine. Plus, who cares if he's a legend? Brody's considered a legend and there's not much love for him on this board. While part of it could be considered one-off, like how bad Race moved, the match layout is more indicative of a greater problem as opposed to a possibly more accute one like Race moving slowly. Plus, he had very few matches in Memphis, and compared to the other Race match in Memphis that I've seen (vs Lawler 8 years earlier), it was a giant step down both in his performance and the overall quality of the match. Also, as Phil said, it was an issue with other matches where he's against a much lesser wrestler in terms of hierarchy. I had read what he said about the Kirschner match beforehand and it struck me while watching the Ware match. Given that Race was generally considered reliably awesome before his injury (and still pretty decent, but slowed down afterwards), a performance *that* bad is a strike against him. Phil's point, not mine. And Lawler's (possibly one time only) diving headbutt was more impressive than Race's. He got better air and it looked more forceful. Before I finish this, I must stress: I am not necessarily in total agreement with what Phil is saying, just that this one performance was absolutely terrible to a very striking degree and it made me consider his argument more.

John Lister dug this up: Hoffman wasn't a big star in the UK so...huh?

It wasn't just a piledriver, it was piledriver (or brainbuster depending on the match) ON THE FLOOR. Given the criticism I gave to the Angle slam to Michaels on the floor being a throwaway move, it's only fair that I criticize Race for using a "more dangerous" move in the same fashion. Especially now that it's on-point with Phil's argument. Also, it was a much, much worse individual performance than any other off night I've seen from a "great worker" in watching the Memphis, and it was also during a very short run that I don't think we have anything else of on tape. Besides, I didn't even say it made Race terrible, just that he had a really terrible outing which I wasn't used to at all before his injury (especially since the Flair match from Kansas City which I believe was a few months earlier was so good). Race vs Ware a match that I was looking forward to a lot and it sucked except for having 2 nice looking spots from Race. Also, Phil: On one of the first Memphis TV shows of '88, there's a music video of all of the Lord of the Ring tournament matches and in the finals, Lawler does an incredible diving headbutt onto Dundee, better and more impressive than Race's.

I agree. It's both salacious AND relevant to the well-being of the company!

Why didn't they fire Jeff hardy then? Didn't he refuse? Nobody has said anything about him being offered rehab this time out. He was fired originally for refusing rehab.

That tends to be their MO.

Of the singles matches that aired in full on the well known Tabe Flair vs. Steamboat comp Just FYI, I've updated and expanded this, making my own 9 disc set of the feud that's as complete as possible, including promos & angles.

I believe he was shopping for both himself and Vince.