Bix

Then have RVD or whoever teach people how to stretch.

Just to get it out of the way: I'm not saying everyone in Japan is a sadist/pervert/whatever. Just that there are certain things along these lines unique to Japan and the country is the only thing that ties them together. I honestly don't know, but if the training is a worse experience than breaking your neck and having to hold it in place for 20 minutes while performing a wrestling match, then the training is too sadistic. I would think someone who survived daily bump drills would be tough enough to be a wrestler. It says they're not as tough as they think they are. That's all/ I don't think we have the same definition of horrifying... Even if it is horrifying to most people, I think you need to look at the root cause. Did the wrestling business make Chigusa think this is acceptable behaviour? Because I'd argue that Chigusa is the way she is because of her father. Chigusa's dad messed her up, I'm sure, but she obviously got the idea that the sort of training she led was a-okay from the AJW dojo. Who knows, dojos are off limits to the public. Considering pro-wrestling dojos are on the bottom rung, there may be more shit that carries on. Pro-wrestling isn't exactly the chosen career path for athletically gifted young people. Within the pro-wrestling dojos, there may be a difference between how the New Japan dojo was/is run and the All Japan ones. It depends on who's being trained. Kiyoshi Tamura runs a gym for regular folks & trains them in a regular way. I want to say there's a class system, but Sumo sounds far worse than pro-wrestling despite a better perception. It wouldn't shock me at all that New Japan was the worst, but the dojos that we know any details about all seem to run along the same lines. No, I'm wondering why people who expose themselves to fake violence can be shocked by real violence. The point is when they pretend to hit each other it's fine, but if someone gets hit for real it's horrifying. By that logic everything that happens in Japanese pornography should be OK, because they're only pretending to do it. That's twisting things a lot, but let's not pretend that Dick Murdoch wasn't a redneck and only played one on TV. Or that he would never hit anyone for real. Or that wrestlers are actors doing something totally unnatural for them. It's a work, but people are always arguing that wrestlers forget that. I think fans cling to it a bit too much. If wrestling were truly a work & so easy to separate from reality, they'd be far more normal people and far less wrecks. It's not being shocked, it's that punching an unsuspecting trainee (not unsuspecting that he'd be abused in general) is clearly a worse act than pretending to punch a willing participant. I really don't think you can argue that the Japan dojos don't work. You can argue with their methods, but the results are pretty clear. I'm not saying that, I'm just saying that there are parts that have nothing to do with wrestling, and as the Power Plant showed, doesn't necessarily breed good wrestlers or stars. Maybe. I'd argue that Japanese wrestling does many things better than American pro-wrestling in regards to wrestlers' health. Such as what? They use less steroids (while still using steroids)? Something really bad clearly happened to Yuji Nagata a few months ago when he had his not a stroke and he's back already. It doesn't look too good on the surface to say the least. I'm not defending it just because it's Japan. The only thing that bothers me about the Japan aspect is if people start saying it happens because the Japanese are sadistic fucks or repressed perverts, since that's not how I know Japanese people to be. I defended it because I don't consider it to be torture. You haven't explained why you don't think it's torture other than "Wrestlers will get hit anyway."

Yeah, because you can't enjoy a fictional representation of something without condoning it in real life. At the risk of invoking Godwin's Law, I'm a Jew with two grandfathers who served in World War II (happy Memorial Day, folks), and I think "Schindler's List" is a great movie. I guess that means I'm a hypocrite for not being totally chillax with the Holocaust. Seriously, OJ, aren't you just a little bit capable of recognizing the difference between fantasy and reality, or are you legitimately insane? Because right now, I am inclined to think you should be seeking out mental help immediately. Lay off the insults guys. There's no need for that. OJ's a good guy and he doesn't deserve that crap. I'm sorry, but that line was so horrifyingly stupid that it deserves insults. I'll second SLL's reply here as I have no idea what your point is. Because Murdoch was a klansman in real life and sometimes enjoyed having bad matches means...what exactly in the context of performing a wrestling match with awesome fake punches? It's part of an angle, gives context to the concession stand brawl I posted right before it, it's mainly chairshots to the back, and I posted it a good 2 years ago so you're just building up strawmen. Because...? It's only about giving context to the dojos and the porn is an easy example to use for the "Japan has its own special kind of weirdness" because it's the most colorful one.

Yeah, because you can't enjoy a fictional representation of something without condoning it in real life. At the risk of invoking Godwin's Law, I'm a Jew with two grandfathers who served in World War II (happy Memorial Day, folks), and I think "Schindler's List" is a great movie. I guess that means I'm a hypocrite for not being totally chillax with the Holocaust. Seriously, OJ, aren't you just a little bit capable of recognizing the difference between fantasy and reality, or are you legitimately insane? Because right now, I am inclined to think you should be seeking out mental help immediately. I somehow skipped past that line when I was reading/replying. I don't know how I missed it, because it is sincerely, appallingly stupid, even by message board standards, wrestling or otherwise.

So, what the NJPW dojo does brain scans to find trainees with a neurological disposition towards pain tolerance? No, just saying that it's not necessarily an issue of pounding it into people. Some just won't be able to take it, some will. That's what taking bumps over and over is for. First of all, I'm from New Zealand. Sorry about that. I could've sworn you had said in the past that you were from Oz. Just because it's a stereotype doesn't mean it's not true. Are you saying that there isn't a certain undercurrent that's unique to Japan as far as being weirdly repressed in various ways (sexually amongst others), hence the porn blurring/tentacle rape paradox that westerners are befuddled by? Like hell it does. I know you've worked up this big image that it's like a POW camp, but wide-eyed hopefuls don't get a look in the door, let alone conned for money. Maybe I worded it wrong, but it leads to something I was wondering: Is it generally known in Japan that training for Sumo, pro wrestling, etc. is the way it is? Is it known that it's different from how wrestlers are trained in the rest of the world? Oh, and what does it say about the system that they took it easy on Bad News Allen because they were scared he'd kill them if they pulled their usual shit? Jesus Christ, GAEA Girls is not horrifying. Whyt? Kicking someone in the face as hard as humanly possible and busting up their mouth to prepare them for a worked performance that is based on "opponents" trusting each other with their bodies is horrifying. Considering I looked long and hard for the date on this, for the book, I don't need it broken to me that someone dying in wrestling training or sumo training = not good. The point is some dojos are well run, others are not. Some have blood on their hands, most don't. The idea that the whole dojo system is fucked up because of one small, rather insignificant dojo is like lumping everybody in with Stu Hart & his Dungeon. I'm not saying that every dojo punishes complaints about food with molestation, but don't most, if not all of the dojos have basically the same training style? Rubbish, calling it "banana rape" makes a mockery of it. It's a serious accusation and should be treated as one. I honestly didn't mean it as a mockery. I guess I can see how you could interpret it that way, but I didn't mean it as anything other than shorthand. Do you understand your desire to see someone get punched, worked or otherwise? So everyone who enjoys a well-executed action scene in a movie or TV show is primal lowlife? I see, it's all work. No-one's actually violent and aggressive by nature. Pro-wrestling lures normal people & normally trained everything ought to be honky dory. Wrestling fans can sleep peacefully, knowing they just saw a great brawl & nobody ever hit anybody in real life & it's great that worked violence is just a work. Honestly, this thread is like people digging yakuza films and then being horrified by real yakuza. No, no, I'm just saying that singling out worked punches makes no sense when everything else you mentioned was singledd out for its danger. Exercising until your throw up has nothing to do with wrestling. Should they be in good physical condition? Of course, but they demand a level of conditioning that isn't necessarily needed. The WCW Power Plant was the closest modern American school to the dojo system as far as pushing it with obscene workouts (as well as being tied to a major promotion). They ran off Batista with this system. Batista became a huge star in WWE and a rather decent hand. I know you didn't, but you really, really make it look like you did too much of the time. You burying your head in the sand about it != me clamoring for it. There was already a decent amount out there. Not as much as the US or Mexico, but it was enough to say "this is rather fucked up in ways that American wrestling isn't." Which isn't to say American wrestling isn't fucked up, just that it's not fucked up in ways that Japanese wrestling is. Tell my why I shouldn't have the perception of Japan that I do based on the resources available to me over time. There is nothing wrong with watching Japanese wrestling. I watch Japanese wrestling. Watching it compulsively because you feel you have an obligation to it because it must be superior to other wrestling by default by being in Japan (which I know isn't something you do but is certainly a trait displayed by others on our internets) or defending physical and emotional torture because it's in Japan (which is more what you're doing) is what I take issue with. Wow, he said stupid things as at teenager that he's grown past? UNBELIEVABLE!

If I want to play rugby & do light training drills, what'll happen the first time I get tackled? ???? Athletes are taught to fall safely, like in wrestling. ??? Some people are neurologically predisposed towards lower pain tolerances. Yes. Yes. Absolutely. Severe mental, physical, and possibly sexual abuse is not "training hard." It's a bunch of sadistic torture from insane sports star wannabes who were bred to act like this through their own training and the repressed nature of their country. I highly doubt you'd be defending this if you were still just an Australian who didn't move to Japan and such. If this was how wrestlers were trained in the US with Japan training like the Americans do, and the majority of the American trainees were shit wrestlers after going through sadistic torture, would you defend it? It's not being hit that's the issue. It's the surprise facepunching as a symptom of the sadistic nature of the dojo symptom. You're smart enough to know that and are either being willfully ignorant or have brainwashed yourself by moving to Magical Workrate Land. Excuse me if I don't find it horrifying or particularly immoral. I think there's an interesting debate to be had over the consequences of such training, but before that happens people need to stop treating it as a freakshow. Sorry, I can't. It's remarkably fucked up, even by the standards of pro wrestling and pro wrestling training. It makes the Andersons breaking the legs of wide-eyed hopefuls for money look like normal, well-adjusted behavior. How is it described in the book? I was thinking more along the lines of when Chigusa steps into the ring with the trainee in GAEA GIRLS. I hate to break it to you (actually, I don't, but it's a figure of speech that seems appropriate), but Gaea Girls is completely horrifying. Sasaki killed a guy & should have gone to jail. One death in 50 something years? Perhaps there were more. I don't think American wrestling training has seen anyone get beaten to death. Accidents, sure. But not a beating in front of witnesses who thought it was business as usual. Yeah, I have a better idea. I'll accept it as a fact and go around telling everyone that institutionalised banana rape is real. If it happened, then it's fucked up. No doubt. There's a pretty good chance that it did happen. It wouldn't surprise me either way. Sorry for not being gungho in believing it. The worst thing you can do is make a mockery of it. Nobody here has mocked the idea of trainees getting sexually abused. So take the knives away from them. Don't let them near a stove. We don't want trainees getting hurt. If you don't want to get roughed up, don't enter a dojo. Don't try and be a wrestler. If the recruiting numbers are anything to go by, Japanese young people are doing just that. Even in Sumo where the money's better. IT'S NOT ABOUT GETTING HURT. Get that through your Japanizized brain. Eh, fans who wanna see bladejobs and worked punches, Do you know what words mean? The craving for stiffness came from desiring credible-looking work while not enough people threw decent working strikes. It was misguided. They should've just learned how to work. Dick Murdoch looked like he was potatoing people but was barely touching them. He was an ass-kicking brawler. Nothing wrong with enjoying him punching people. Same goes for Lawler, Dundee, Windham, DiBiase, etc. There you go missing the point again. Wrestlers getting hurt in the course of taking bumps is a lot different from sadistic idiots beating them half to death because it's their version of tentacle rape.

Everything is pointing towards it being WWE's Massaro.

No, because it never happened.

The only Dave and Debbie story I have ever heard was that Lano's excommunication from Dave's inner circle was in part due to some incident where Lano called Debbie's (Dave's friend and nothing more) room and behaved like Mike Lano. It's possible someone twisted the story into "Dave was banging Debbie and Lano called then while they were in flagrante" but it's not exactly a widespread enduring story. It's also a very different type of story from numerous people in WCW telling Randazzo that when Sullivan was made booker in 2000, Benoit threatened to bang his fists on the ringpost until they were broken and mangled before raising them to the camera triumphantly and walking away. Even if it's not true, enough people told it unsolicited that that it shows enough wrestlers believed he was more than just "wrestler crazy" 7 and a half years before the murders.

So that includes the stuff about Konnan/Sullivan/Nancy/and which ever luchador bit Nancy on the ass? Because in the book that story was quoted directly from the sleaze thread, but I assume Matt wouldn't have put it in if he thought it was just 'net gossip. That was in the WON (without all the details but basically confirming the story Jose told) after the murders though Dave didn't name Heavy Metal. Plus it wouldn't exactly shock me if Randazzo was able to get Konnan for background. I believe that Jose was a big source for the book so it may have just worked better to quote his old post (which was originally at OLC before the sleaze thread) since it was written well.

For what it's worth, basically everything was confirmed independently by multiple sources, so if anything that's false got in, it's something that's widely believed to be true.

To an extent, yeah. Wrestling involves a fairly staggering amount of longterm pain. If you can't handle a punch in the face, you can't handle being a wrestler. Training needs to be a little bit rough in order to weed out the wannabes who would otherwise be wasting everyone's time.So be constructive and do bump drills instead of attempting to break them down w/ facepunching/legbreaking/forcible sodomy.

Bumping this since we now know that wrestling has institutional banana rape.

Did you grind your feet on Eddie Murphy's couch?

http://www.jrsbarbq.com/2008/05/24/jrs-ramblings/

Not having the book yet but having heard some of the stories from those who have plus read the Benoit WONs... - In the dojo, Benoit's toughness was tested by having trainers punch him in the ear until it bled (this was in the 1st Benoit WON). - If trainees complained about the low quality of food in the dojo, they would be sodomized with a banana. - Jushin Liger would randomly punch trainees in the face. - I think this one was in a shoot interview among other places and may be in the book: The NJPW foreigners stripped John "Pee Wee" Moore naked and made him do push ups while they urinated on his back. I know there's a lot more in the book.

It appears that he is, along with the fact that we're ghoulish creeps for wanting to read about it, whereas he's not for comparing the appeal of moonsaults to vaginal bleeding or something.

Yes. He regrets it.

DVDVR discussion starting here. I don't have my copy yet (I blame Media Mail) but from talking to those who have it and reading those posts, it sounds incredible, with tons of previously unreleased information that borders on scary at times. Through the grapevine, I've heard that there's a bunch of NJPW dojo stuff (including a detailed passage about Hiromitsu Gompei's death as well Benoit being tortured and then going on to torture others when he became an estabished star), the truth about Dave Lagana's firing, Dean Malenko feeding Eddy Guerrero drugs, and a bunch of other fucked up material. I'll post a full review after I read it. Anyone here get it yet?

I'm not sure how someone bleeding as a signal that they need help is like big moves being attractive unless you're saying that people are drawn to hemmoraging vaginas because they get off on the danger or something. I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt that you don't mean that. Moving on, I don't get how you're for extreme situations but against the use of chokeholds.

It's the Undertaker in gimmick but out of character in a posed photo that looks to be professionally shot. I'm curious as to what led to it being taken and/or released.

Details plz.

I'm pretty sure that someone, maybe John, said at some point that it was supposed to be an insult.

I still need why "SKeith" is a biting insult explained to me, though. Is it because "Skeith" sorta sounds like "skeeve?"

It was a guest reviewer, not Keith.