cm funk

Reading through this old thread, and honestly, I agree 100% with Vince wanting Bret to drop the belt to Shawn. Shawn was the ace of the company, the hottest heel, and had a long running on-screen rivalry with Bret. Bret was leaving, Shawn was the right guy to beat him on the way out. A transitional champion would have been a horrible mistake IMO, because there's nobody else who beating for the belt would have mattered as much as it did beating Bret. Also, this doesn't always get brought up, but Vince was worried about losing Shawn too. Shawn had asked for his release on multiple occasions and let it be plainly known that he wanted to join Hall and Nash in WCW. Vince created that monster, but at that point he needed HBK and really, really couldn't afford to say no to him. Michaels would have faked an injury and bitched and moaned his way out of the company if he had to, it isn't like that kind of thing hadn't happened multiple times over the years, as far back as 93 when he was still a midcarder. They should have been able to come to a compromise though, and I put that 100% on Michaels being the pilled up unprofessional douche that he was. It would have been incredibly simple to craft a legally binding agreement with Bret to show up to RAW the next night and drop the title, it was Michaels' refusal to play ball that really set everything in motion. Bret and Shawn were both huge marks for themselves, and Bret was absolutely trying to protect his heat on the way out, but Bret never had the problems putting people over that Shawn did.

One thing that really bothers me about modern WWE is how everybody wears their merchandise at all times. I know why they do it, but it makes most of the guys look like clowns. Zack Ryder looks absolutely ridiculous for example. Did this start with Austin, Rock and DX? It seemed like that was the time where anybody who had a shirt had to start wearing it to the ring and I don't remember it being so pervasive before that.

Maybe we watched a different match, because I honestly don't see a single thing wrong with anything JBL did in that match.

Oh, and I can't forget the Manager of Champions, Bill Alphonso!!

My personal favorites are Bobby Heenan, Paul E. Dangerously (in WCW, ECW or w/ Brock in WWE), Sherri Martel, Col. Robert Parker and Skandor Akbar. Jim Cornette and Jimmy Hart are really great and belong on any top manager list, as do Gary Hart, Grand Wizard, Freddie Blassie and Lou Albano. Paul Bearer and Mr. Fuji were great as gimmicky managers who were well suited to a particular character. My first real exposure to Harley Race (I was pretty young when he had his King run in the WWF) was as a manager and I thought he was really great too, especially with Vader. I liked Tammy Sytch a lot in Smokey Mt, but the Sunny character really never hit the mark as well as it should have, probably just due to a lack of good material and guidance. Some modern indie guys I really liked were Prince Nana, Julius Smokes, Ultramantis Black and Larry Sweeney. Jim Mitchell was good in his ECW and TNA runs too. I haven't seen enough of Paul Jones, just random stuff on youtube, but he seems really good.

Re: Bradshaw I loved the Acolytes, really great team and entertaining when they transitioned into more of a skit/comedy role. Wasn't a fan of his long title run at all (the endless series of matches with Taker and Batista were really bad, and they're both guys who are capable of having very good matches), but I liked him as a mid-uppercard half serious/half comedy heel after his title run quite a bit. He was much better doing sideshow midcard feuds, secondary title or occasionally challenging a main eventer than being in the main event every month. And he was champ back when SD had solo PPVS, so he was really shoved down your throat. I also really liked his short run on commentary, like most people do. I never had a problem with JBL's alleged stiffness in the ring. It's just one of those things that goes hand in hand with being a pro wrestler. A guy hits you with a good shot, hit him with one back. It's been that way forever, and you can't exactly simulate a fight convincingly without it. There's a difference between being reckless and unsafe and being stiff, and I don't think JBL was going out there with the intention of injuring anybody. Bullying and sending a message at times, definitely, but again, that's the way wrestling has always been. I've always been a fan of guys who work stiff and convincingly and give as good as they get. I don't need to see head drops or anything truely dangerous, but snug strikes? C'mon, if you can't take a worked punch to the face or a chop or a kick or a hard shoulderblock you shouldn't be in the ring. It's not ballet, as the saying goes.... My problem with JBL is more with the stories of backstage bullying and intimidation. It goes on in every walk of life, and in every lockerroom of every sport, but from the firsthand stories from a multitude of sources it sounds like Bradshaw was pretty sadistic and often took it beyond the point of reason. There's a fine line there and a difference between running the lockerroom and outright torturing people. Miz wears the fact that Bradshaw tortured him as a badge of honor, and that attitude obviously helped him tremendously in getting over with the office and the lockerroom, but it doesn't really justify it.

I also remember Superstar Billy Graham, after WWE cut him from his legends deal, saying the guarantee was for very little money, basically nothing to WWE in the grand scheme of things. His DVD and book didn't sell well, so he can't have made a whole lot more than the downside, though I believe WWE had at one time been helping pay for his medical expenses. It's really on a case by case basis. I'm sure they have their standard 10-15K + royalties contract they offer the older guys, but guys like Austin, Shawn, Edge, Flair, Hogan will be offered sweet deals to basically do nothing because Vince wants to keep them under the WWE umbrella while they still have name value. Guys like Snuka, Kamala, Koko B. Ware etc.....what value does their name really have on the market, and do they want to be like a HTM hustling on the indies into their 50's and 60's? For guys like that signing the contract means they maybe get featured on DVDs they otherwise wouldn't have, maybe they get action figures, retro t-shirts and a spot on a video game, maybe it makes it easier to do conventions and signings when they can be booked as a "WWE LEGEND".....there's a definite convenience factor for some of these older guys who don't have as much to offer to the business anymore.

They shifted the heat from "he's obviously going to screw Punk, how can Punk survive with his title" to "will he or won't he screw Punk, because he might be sacrificing his job" I thought the match/angle came out of the night with more juice than it had going in, and get real, nobody was buying the ROYAL RUMBLE to see John Lauranitus get his comeuppance

It could be as simple as Spike/Viacom not wanting to pump so much money into the company, considering in the last 2 years they've made large investments in Hogan, Flair, RVD, Hardy etc. with negligible ratings growth. TNA has no leverage, and if anybody at Spike is paying attention they should know by now the show will get the same ratings no matter who is in the company.

As a fan who grew up on 80's WWF I think Ventura, Monsoon, Okerlund and Finkel are all slam dunk candidates. In my mind I compare every ring announcer to Fink, every interviewer to Okerlund, and every commentary team to Monsoon/Ventura or Monsoon/Heenan. They are all iconic figures to me and very important to the product and presentation. I can't imagine what the WWF would have been like without them. RE: HHH in 2000......I find the Kamala comparison pretty silly. Practically everybody drew against Hogan in that time frame, and OTTH Kamala never drew against anyone else. Rock was the big draw without question, but the TV shows (which were still doing great ratings) were largely built around HHH and Stephanie, and I'd guess HHH wrestled in the majority of TV main events. HHH drew against Foley Jericho and Angle that year as well. I was in high school in 2000 and watched the shows with a pretty large group of casual fan friends, and to my memory HHH was very over as the top heel and you could take practically anybody on any given night and make them a huge babyface going against him. This is also the year that Austin was out, Foley retired, Undertaker was out half the year.....HHH was the glue to the booking.

Interesting polls on the website today

By all accounts house shows are the most successful part of their business model, and had them at more or less a break even point overall a few years ago. Apparently they do great with merchandise and photos and gimmick tables at most of the shows as well. Their mistake is in shit like booking 8000-10,000 seat arenas for PPVs when they can't even half fill that heavily papering. They can get 1,000-2,000 paying customers in most big markets, so those are the venues they should book. They absolutely should keep touring, and keep taping TV outside of the Impact Zone, because that place has really become death for their product. I don't think relying on the DVD market is a good idea at all either. That market is dying, if not already dead. TNA practically gives their DVDs away.

Back in the day state athletic commissions actually required managers to be licensed, so that gimmick was based in reality. I'm not sure what getting a managers license entailed, probably just a formality in most cases, but it was a real thing. Been reading the '94 Observers, and when talking about Tonya Harding working a Jesse Barr promoted show in Washington St. it was noted that she had to sit in a chair by the entrance and couldn't go to ringside because the commission wouldn't license her as a manager

Did WCW do it consistently until the NWO era, or was there a period in the early 90s when they stopped? I seem to remember that Bill Watts brought that rule back out of retirement when he took over, but I'm not sure. They mentionned getting rid of the rule sometime in 1998. I don't think it was officialy done before. WCW was such a clusterfuck, they'd pick and choose when to honor that rule. Guys would forget and throw their opponent over the top right in front of the ref, and the announcers would cover it up with "referees discretion" but then when they wanted a cheap way to get out of a title match they'd book it as the finish. Was it Arn Anderson who accidentally exited the ring over the top rope and got DQ'd like a minute into a match because the ref decided that day they were following the rule? I think they "unofficially" stopped using it completely long before 98 It's kind of like that "title changes hands on a DQ" rule in TNA which is never enforced, until they drag it out of mothballs when they want a cheap finish

In the WWE Ranjin Singh managing The Great Khali. Last one I remember before that was Paul Bearer's short stint with Undertaker in 04. Before that you'd probably have to go back to Paul Ellering or Michael Hayes managing the Hardyz during the attitude era. The deal with Estrada was they moved him out of the picture during the McMahon v. Trump buildup (had Lashley destroy him), and then after that they just had Umaga as Vince and Shane's muscle for a few months (this was the crazy period where bald Vince won the ECW title). Estrada was off TV for months until he was brought back as the ECW GM.

nobody does the "Japanese arm drag" anymore

Rather than a "new direction" it just feels to me like Cena is in a holding pattern until they can start pushing the match with Rock again. He'll be back dominating the show again in no time. IIRC they've never done a Cena-Kane program before, and Cena doesn't do programs that aren't about the title all that often, so in one sense it's something new and different. But on the other hand, Kane has had a million of these paint by numbers feuds with top guys, I feel like I've seen it before. Also, was Cole horrible during the main event or what? He doesn't usually bother me that much, it just really stood out during that match how actively detrimental he is to guys getting over.

If you just look at the WWF/E title there's 40+ changes and by my count 19 different champions in the 00's When Backlund was champ, first it would have gone back and forth with Graham a few times. Valentine definitely would have gotten the belt, considering they did as close to a title change as they could do with the title being held up between them. Slaughter would have won it at least once, Muraco too. Piper and Orndorff both would have gotten the belt during the early Hogan years.

The only one I know of is from 2003 when Cena was a heel. I remember it being one of Cena's best matches to that point, but that was 8+ years ago they've both had tons of better matches since

From the 3/7/94 Observer, regarding Jim Ross' contract expiring and not being renewed around the time of his first bout with Bell's Palsy:

Cena does the Super FU and Punk has done the Super G2S. I feel like Daniel Bryan has done some off the top throws as well.

Oh, and a comment about Chuck Langerman, since I asked a while back if anybody knew anything about who he is and somebody else brought it up recently.... I was reading some 94 Observers the other day and noticed his name pop up in the thanks section for people who sent in house show results. I googled him and he's apparently a "high school football historian" from somewhere in New Jersey who writes some articles for a tiny local sports journal (so tiny they didn't appear to have a website). Explains why all of his "trivia" has to do with high school and other amateur athletics I guess

I had a random question but I have to comment on the topic at hand... Does WO/F4W really have any "mma fan" subscribers who want them to drop pro-wrestling coverage? Dave gets enough e-mails about it to warrant making that comment? I get that he's just trying to make the point that they cover wrestling and they cover MMA and people need to accept it, but that was an absurd thing to say I'm sure this is true for website traffic, but jesus, the audience is wrestling fans who are also MMA fans, and the subscriber base is wrestling fans. I usually defend Dave re: the wrestling/MMA arguements, but that post makes him sound delusional. I mean, his Yahoo articles don't even link to the website or offer subscriptions to the newsletter....... Anyway, my question was if anybody had any thoughts on why Dave never does WOL anymore? I get why he handed over the hosting to Bryan, but he never is on the show anymore, not even a quick 10-15 minutes to plug the newsletter. He still does Live Audio Wrestling though. I wonder why they even bother with WOL at this point. I don't know the numbers, but it seems like Sports Byline has minimal penetration, the shows are taped now and don't take calls, no guests, and in general aren't very interesting or a good advertisement for subscriber audio. It's like they're just keeping the show around out of habit. I have to think that if they were to reevaluate and shop themselves around they could find a much better platform for it. Even just hooking up with a radio app like IHeartRadio would make the show more accessable.

They had shot promotional photos with Bret and Hulk in a tug of war for the belt for Summerslam '93. Knowing what we know about Hogan and Vince I'd chalk this up to both of them covering their bases.

I wonder when they made the decision to go with Yokozuna. Likely it was around the same time they put the belt on Bret. I'm not sure when Yoko signed, but he debuted within weeks of Bret winning the title and was immediately fast tracked for a huge push. He was given a squash win at Survivor Series and the hype for him being in the Rumble began soon after. Meanwhile Bret was wrestling midcarders Michaels and Razor and doing the fighting champion gimmick. You could perhaps make a case that Bret was the first babyface transitional champion, and that they were just looking for a solid hand to keep the belt warm while they built up Yokozuna. It also seems apparent that Bret was not the first choice to take the belt from Yokozuna, and was more a case of, "well, he's the best we've got". During the entire Bret Hart era Vince was looking for somebody else to be the face of the company, be it Luger in the Hogan role, Diesel or Shawn Michaels. I'm not sure exactly how Hogan's comeback and 10 second title win plays into this, because there's so many different stories about what was promised to and by who, and different things that were planned, etc. Probably Vince just decided he should/had to test the water with Hulk one more time. It was a short-term arrangement, and when the initial returns on Hogan's comeback were poor they quickly went back to hunkering down for a long winter. I don't buy that Hogan was ever going to put Bret over, or that Vince ever considered it.