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Primetime? 24 years ago this week: That's not really an uncommon week. The week before: 1/4/88: - Jim Duggan pinned Sika with the running clothesline at 9:16 (12/26/87; Madison Square Garden) - Dino Bravo (w/ Frenchy Martin) pinned Hillbilly Jim at 9:27 with a running knee to the back as Jim was distracted by Frenchy on the apron (12/5/87; Philadelphia Spectrum) - Jacques & Raymond Rougeau defeated the Conquistadors at 13:07 when Jacques scored the pin following a double team move off the top (12/26/87; Madison Square Garden) - WWF Women's Champion Sensational Sherri pinned Velvet McIntyre at 14:31 when the momentum of a crossbody by the challenger put Sherri on top (10/23/87; Paris, France) - Iron Mike Sharpe pinned SD Jones at 7:33 after hitting him in the head with his forearm support (12/26/87; Madison Square Garden) - Bam Bam Bigelow (w/ Sir Oliver Humperdink) pinned King Kong Bundy (w/ Bobby Heenan) at 3:56 with a splash after Bundy missed a splash of his own (Best of the WWF Vol. 15) (11/17/87; Des Moines, IA; Veterans Memorial Auditorium) Similar. Primetime wasn't really almost exclusively angle and skit driven. The show was a combination "re-cap" of the week's syndication shows (and SNME if there had been one) and wrestling matches. Looking over the matches that made Primetime in 1988, over 100 were from MSG, Philly, Boston and the LA Sports Arena. Some were squashy, most weren't. I'm willing to bet that there were more than 200, and possibly 250, non-squashes on Primetime. Even in that Bret vs Roma match, while Bret was clearly favored, they worked a competitive 13 minute match.

You have some duplicate links. John

I keep seeing references to this. Did I miss the thread this is referring to?

They did Hashimoto vs Kawada. It was good but it was in 2004 and nowhere near what it could have been. Circa 1996/97, it would have been a heck of a match. The two would have figured out how to work with each other, and had a "war". Probably in the other direction. Misawa tended to let his opponent do whatever he wanted to do, then work comebacks off of it. Given they were the two Aces, they each would have been doing fiery comebacks. But it's more likely that Misawa would have let Hash "look stronger" by beating the living shit out of him more than he beat the hell out of Hash. My general thought would be to look at the 8/95 Hash-Mutoh G1 Final, and then ponder what 1995 Kobashi *couldn't* have done in that match, and what more Kobashi could have brought to the table. Or Hash's better matches with Hase or Kosh... or pretty much anyone in New Japan. Kobashi would have been willing to take what ever ass kicking Hash wanted to dish out. Hash would have been willing to let Kobashi get in all his stuff. Hash would have kept Kobashi from wanting to go 40+. Kobashi would likely have pushed Hash to go past 20. Considering that Hash-Mutoh went 24+, I don't think these two would have had any issues going past 20... and probably comfortably past 20. This would have been the easiest opponent from All Japan for Hash to have a "very good" match with. Circa 1993 it would have been pretty interesting. Hansen had a lot of respect for the All Japan guys because they'd grown up in the rings opposite him. Hash was a different promotion, and it would be an interesting dynamic if it were a one-off. You'd really rather see it if one of them had been in the promotion for a full series where they worked some tags and six-men earlier in the series to get not only some of their spots down, but also their mutual respect down. The positive would be this is probably the one match where they wouldn't try to work epic length and could get in-and-out in 15 or so minutes... one would hope. I suspect 1995-96 Taue would have been interesting, as long as they avoided going too long. Taue certainly would take a beating, and would be willing to take Hash's lead. By 1995-96 he also had some "dangerous" things like the more brutal high kicks that could match some stiffness with Hash, and turn the tide. Again, Hash likely would have figured something out here, and probably worked "storyish" with one of their arms getting fucked up. 1995-96 Hash vs Jun would have been as good as the other Hash vs Younger Guy matches of the era. Hash dominates, lets the kid make comebacks before cutting him back off, then lets him look good with a last stronger comeback before winning in the end. It's the type of match that Hash was *better* at working than most of the AJPW at that point because he did it all the time. Would have been good. My guess is that Hash vs Jumbo in 10/91 would have been as good as Jumbo vs Kawada in 10/91. The difference being that since Hash had three singles wins over Choshu under his belt at that point, he would have had *more* credibility against Jumbo than Kawada did. The second difference is that Jumbo and Kawada had their spots together to a degree since they'd been working against each other for years. A "cold" Jumbo vs Hash would have been a bit choppy at times. That's not always a bad thing, i.e. Dream Rush. But it can be an issue in any number of other times. It probably did happen... just don't recall having seen it. Both Doc and Hash got a lot better after Doc went to All Japan, so it's not a lock that a match of theirs in the 80s would have been killer. But a 1994 through 3/95 matches? My general thought is that if Hash could have a good match with Norton (and he had several watchable-to-good matches with Scott), it's pretty much a lock that he could have have a *very* good match with Doc... as long as Doc didn't fuck it up somehow. Hash could have worked with all of these guys. I think in turn, most of the AJPW guys could have worked with most of the NJPW regulars and churned out good matches, and some great matches. John

Actually, the Beatles guys kept recording. The Beatles was the peak of them collectively. But it misses the point that as solos, they released a ton of charting stuff in the 70s on into the 80s. A fair amount of "solid-to-good pop songs", fewer classics. The Beatles are Ric in his Prime. The Solo Beatles are Ric post-prime. Paul now is something akin to Old Ric, still grinding out material. Flair's peak isn't Dylan. His late career isn't remotely close to Bob's late career either. Wrestling never has had a Dylan, and is highly unlikely to ever cough one up. John

This is the first time I've ever seen someone call it a 5* match. I use to be on the high end of the scale of people liking the match, and never had it as a MOTYC. I don't get around much anymore, so perhaps opinion has changed over time... though given how much people currently love Takada, that surprises me.

The Beatles had possibly the tightest quality control of their era making this a bizarre analogy. I love The Beatles, but tracks like Don't Pass Me By, What Goes On and One After 909 aren't going to make anyone's favourite song playlist. Plus, I was never a big McCartney guy so their may be a bias there as well. But we look back on them for their best songs (Yesterday, A Day In The Life, Norweigan Wood etc) when discussing their legacy, not an outtake from the Anthonlogy discs, which is like comparing a Wrestlemania match to a house show fancam. While I may have been overstating the fact when talking about downright bad, I think the analogy holds up well, as they both have performances that are remembered as all-time greats, though perhaps not as good as some of the lesser known acts in history, and both have fans that will defend them to their death and get sensitive when it is pointed out that not everything they did was great They recorded for release 200+ songs from late 1962 through the first day of 1970. You cited three of those songs, one written by Ringo and another that was left laying around from before they even got a recording contract. I could cite another dozen from their "prime" that were weak, crackers or flat out blew. But the key comment in blueminister's post was "their era". In their era, most rock bands and performers were singles groups whose albums were filled with, you know, "filler". It's worth noting the other three songs you mentioned: Yesterday This was a song recorded as "filler" for Side 2 of their second sountrack album, where Side 1 had all the songs from the movie. After shooting, they went into the studio to record stuff to fill out the second side. Granted... the Beatles treated "filler" differently that most everyone else. Side 2 of their first soundtrack opened with three terrific songs, two of which would have been hit singles if they chose them to release them as such in the place of primary singles, and the third of which was one of Lennon's strongest early period songs. In the case Yesterday, the group record what became an all-time classic and tossed it onto Help's second side... rather than leaving it in the can to be a single for December which they knew they would eventually have to come up with. It's the equiv of wrestling a ***** match infront of 200 people... except of course the Beatles drew more than 200 people. A Day In The Life They released four songs as primary singles in 1967: Penny Lane, Strawberry Fields Forever, All You Need Is Love and Hello Goodbye. The first two were bundled as one of their Double A singles. Day in the Life was... the climax to their album that year which contained no singles. Which everyone treated as an all-time classic when it was released (album and song alike). Other than Dylan, folks weren't generally doing that up to 1967. Hidden gems? Some artists did, but not often *intentionally*... and ADITL wasn't hidden. Norweigan Wood The singles from that recording session were We Can Work It Out and Day Tripper. More album stuff. Granted, Rubber Soul had some true filler on it. But they were also intentionally trying to come up with some good shit (some of it Really Good Shit) to anchor the album, stuff that would never be singles. The Beatles are probably the musically equiv of Flair or Kobashi. Boatloads of good shit. They aren't bullet proof, and laid some eggs. They are far from the flawless greats that their biggest fanboys think they are. But in context of their times churning out loads of good stuff, some of it off the charts, they're pretty amazing. Bret ain't the Beatles. That's from someone who is a fan of Bret's work. John

Slightly hard to explain... but Muta was the heel side of Mutoh's personality. He typically worked over the top heel as Muta in the early-mid 90s, and dusted it rarely. The irony of course is that "Muta" was the one that won the IWGP the first time, and tended to heel it up. The other irony was that the 1992 match with Hase was wrestled semi-straight before Hase got his "revenge" all those years later. Flip a coin on which is better. I liked the 1992 match more at the time, and generally since, for (i) Hase's payback and (ii) that despite all the bloodbath, they still worked a match around it (i.e. brought the "wrestling spots"), right down to the clean stretch run. 1990 was a bit more garbagey, which is perfectly fine in the context of Muta being a batshit heel.

Here's one of the problems one runs into. When folks tend to do "comparative" thingies with the NJPW and AJPW guys, they run into things like this. We have Yearbooks for 1993-96, which cover most of Hash's peak run (1994-96 just missing 1997 into 1998), along with his role in the peak of the Tenryu vs New Japan feud (1993). You ranked matches in those four years. Here are the AJPW ones and the "NJPW-ish" ones (i.e. including the Super J Cup and matches in WAR, UWFi and elsewhere that had NJPW natives in them): #98 - Riki Choshu vs Genichiro Tenryu (NJPW Tokyo Dome 01/04/93) #95 - Genichiro Tenryu vs Hiroshi Hase (NJPW 09/23/93) #93 - Mitsuharu Misawa vs Steve Williams (AJPW 09/03/93) #83 - Toshiaki Kawada vs Kenta Kobashi (AJPW 04/14/93) #81 - Genichiro Tenryu vs Riki Choshu (NJPW 04/06/93) #77 - Riki Choshu, Shinya Hashimoto, Tatsumi Fujinami, Masa Chono & Hiroshi Hase vs Genichiro Tenryu, Ashura Hara, Takashi Ishikawa, Tatsu Goto & Super Strong Machine (NJPW 06/15/93) #76 - Tatsumi Fujinami & Shinya Hashimoto vs Genichiro Tenryu & Takashi Ishikawa (WAR 05/24/93) #70 - Mitsuharu Misawa vs Akira Taue (AJPW 02/28/93) #68 - Kenta Kobashi vs Terry Gordy (AJPW 05/29/93) #66 - Hiroshi Hase vs Shinya Hashimoto (NJPW G-1 Climax 08/03/93) #65 - Mitsuharu Misawa & Kenta Kobashi vs Steve Williams & Big Boss Man (AJPW 11/24/93) #59 - Doug Furnas & Dan Kroffat vs Kenta Kobashi & Satoru Asako (AJPW 08/20/93) #56 - Shinya Hashimoto & Michiyoshi Ohara vs Ashura Hara & Kodo Fuyuki (WAR 03/07/93) #54 - Stan Hansen vs Kenta Kobashi (AJPW 04/16/93) #53 - Mitsuharu Misawa vs Stan Hansen (AJPW 05/21/93) #51 - Genichiro Tenryu & Takashi Ishikawa vs Riki Choshu & Osamu Kido (WAR 03/03/93) #49 - Wild Pegasus vs El Samurai (NJPW Top of the Super Juniors 06/14/93) #46 - Mitsuharu Misawa & Kenta Kobashi vs Stan Hansen & Giant Baba (AJPW 11/30/93) #42 - Kenta Kobashi & Tsuyoshi Kikuchi vs Jun Akiyama & Yoshinari Ogawa (AJPW 01/24/93) #41 - Mitsuharu Misawa, Kenta Kobashi & Tsuyoshi Kikuchi vs Toshiaki Kawada, Akira Taue & Masa Fuchi (AJPW 10/02/93) #39 - Toshiaki Kawada & Akira Taue vs Steve Williams & Big Boss Man (AJPW 12/01/93) #38 - Genichiro Tenryu vs Shinya Hashimoto (WAR 06/17/93) #36 - Mitsuharu Misawa, Kenta Kobashi & Jun Akiyama vs Toshiaki Kawada, Akira Taue & Yoshinari Ogawa (AJPW 07/02/93) #34 - Toshiaki Kawada vs Jun Akiyama (AJPW 07/09/93) #33 - Mitsuharu Misawa, Kenta Kobashi & Tsuyoshi Kikuchi vs Toshiaki Kawada, Akira Taue & Yoshinari Ogawa (AJPW 06/03/93) #32 - Genichiro Tenryu vs Shinya Hashimoto (NJPW G-1 Climax 08/08/93) #31 - Mitsuharu Misawa & Toshiaki Kawada vs Steve Williams & Terry Gordy (AJPW 01/30/93) #26 - Ultimo Dragon vs El Samurai (WAR 03/07/93) #23 - Genichiro Tenryu, Ashura Hara & Takashi Ishikawa vs Keiji Muto, Akira Nogami & Shinya Hashimoto (NJPW 02/05/93) #22 - Mitsuharu Misawa & Jun Akiyama vs Toshiaki Kawada & Masa Fuchi (AJPW 07/19/93) #21 - Steve Williams vs Kenta Kobashi (AJPW 08/31/93) #19 - Toshiaki Kawada vs Kenta Kobashi (AJPW 10/23/93) #18 - Keiji Muto & Hiroshi Hase vs Shinya Hashimoto & Masa Chono (NJPW 11/04/93) #17 - Mitsuharu Misawa & Kenta Kobashi vs Toshiaki Kawada & Akira Taue (AJPW 06/01/93) #16 - Stan Hansen vs Toshiaki Kawada (AJPW 02/28/93) #15 - Riki Choshu, Tatsumi Fujinami, Osamu Kido, Hiroshi Hase & Tayayuki Iizuka vs Genichiro Tenryu, Ashura Hara, Takashi Ishikawa, Ricky Fuyuki & Tatsumi Kitahara (NJPW 02/16/93) #14 - Mitsuharu Misawa vs Toshiaki Kawada (AJPW Championship Carnival 03/27/93) #13 - Toshiaki Kawada vs Akira Taue (AJPW Championship Carnival 04/12/93) #3 - Mitsuharu Misawa & Kenta Kobashi vs Toshiaki Kawada & Akira Taue (AJPW 12/03/93) #1 - Stan Hansen vs Kenta Kobashi (AJPW 07/29/93) #100 - Steve Williams vs Kenta Kobashi (AJPW Championship Carnival 04/15/94) #97 - El Samurai vs Great Sasuke (NJPW Super J Cup 04/16/94) #96 - Jushin Liger vs Super Delphin (NJPW Best of the Super Juniors 05/30/94) #94 - Mitsuharu Misawa & Kenta Kobashi vs Toshiaki Kawada & Masa Fuchi (AJPW 01/07/94) #90 - Mitsuharu Misawa vs Toshiaki Kawada (AJPW Championship Carnival 04/11/94) #82 - Mitsuharu Misawa, Kenta Kobashi & Jun Akiyama vs Toshiaki Kawada, Akira Taue & Yoshinari Ogawa (AJPW 10/07/94) #78 - Kenta Kobashi vs Akira Taue (AJPW Championship Carnival 03/24/94) #74 - Jushin Liger, Shinjiro Otani, El Samurai & Tokimitsu Ishikawa vs Great Sasuke, Shiryu, Sato & Taka Michinoku (NJPW 06/15/94) #60 - Mitsuharu Misawa, Kenta Kobashi & Jun Akiyama vs Stan Hansen, Giant Baba & Takao Omori (AJPW 04/16/94) #57 - Steve Williams vs Kenta Kobashi (AJPW 09/03/94) #51 - Stan Hansen vs Kenta Kobashi (AJPW Championship Carnival 04/10/94) #49 - Hiroshi Hase vs Shinya Hashimoto (NJPW 12/13/94) #48 - Mitsuharu Misawa & Kenta Kobashi vs Toshiaki Kawada & Akira Taue (AJPW 11/25/94) #44 - Mitsuharu Misawa & Kenta Kobashi vs Steve Williams & Johnny Ace (AJPW 12/10/94) #41 - Steve Williams vs Toshiaki Kawada (AJPW Championship Carnival 03/29/94) #38 - Genichiro Tenryu vs Shinya Hashimoto (NJPW 02/17/94) #32 - Rick & Scott Steiner vs Keiji Muto & Hiroshi Hase (NJPW Tokyo Dome 01/04/94) #30 - Mitsuharu Misawa & Kenta Kobashi vs Steve Williams & Johnny Ace (AJPW 07/22/94) #26 - Wild Pegasus vs Great Sasuke (NJPW Super J Cup 04/16/94) #24 - Shinya Hashimoto vs Shiro Koshinaka (NJPW G-1 Climax 08/06/94) #21 - Jushin Liger vs Great Sasuke (NJPW Super J Cup 04/16/94) #15 - Jushin Liger vs Shinya Hashimoto (NJPW 02/24/94) #13 - Great Sasuke & Black Tiger vs Wild Pegasus & Shinjiro Otani (NJPW 10/16/94) #11 - Steve Williams vs Toshiaki Kawada (AJPW Championship Carnival 04/16/94) #10 - Jushin Liger vs Great Sasuke (NJPW 07/08/94) #8 - Steve Williams vs Mitsuharu Misawa (AJPW 07/28/94) #4 - Mitsuharu Misawa & Kenta Kobashi vs Toshiaki Kawada & Akira Taue (AJPW 05/21/94) #1 - Mitsuharu Misawa vs Toshiaki Kawada (AJPW 06/03/94) #100 - Keiji Muto vs Junji Hirata (NJPW 09/25/95) #98 - Chris Benoit vs Chris Jericho (WAR Super J Cup 12/13/95) #86 - Toshiaki Kawada vs Jun Akiyama (AJPW Championship Carnival 03/21/95) #85 - Rick & Scott Steiner vs Keiji Muto & Hiroshi Hase (NJPW Tokyo Dome 01/04/95) #77 - Mitsuharu Misawa vs Akira Taue (AJPW 09/10/95) #74 - Keiji Muto vs Shiro Koshinaka (NJPW G-1 Climax 08/12/95) #72 - Ultimo Dragon vs Shinjiro Otani (WAR Super J Cup 12/13/95) #71 - Mitsuharu Misawa vs Akira Taue (AJPW Championship Carnival 04/12/95) #68 - Keiji Muto vs Shiro Koshinaka (NJPW 12/11/95) #66 - Mitsuharu Misawa & Kenta Kobashi vs Toshiaki Kawada & Akira Taue (AJPW 01/24/95) #64 - Steven Regal vs Shinya Hashimoto (NJPW 04/16/95) #57 - Mitsuharu Misawa & Kenta Kobashi vs Steve Williams & Johnny Ace (AJPW 03/04/95) #56 - Shinya Hashimoto vs Kensuke Sasaki (NJPW Tokyo Dome 01/04/95) #55 - Mitsuharu Misawa vs Toshiaki Kawada (AJPW Championship Carnival 04/06/95) #54 - Masa Chono & Hiroyoshi Tenzan vs Yoji Anjo & Yoshihiro Takayama (UWFI 11/25/95) #52 - Mitsuharu Misawa, Kenta Kobashi & Satoru Asako vs Toshiaki Kawada, Akira Taue & Tamon Honda (AJPW 06/30/95) #51 - Rob Van Dam vs Dan Kroffat (AJPW 06/09/95) #47 - Wild Pegasus vs Koji Kanemoto (NJPW 03/13/95) #45 - Keiji Muto vs Masa Chono (NJPW G-1 Climax 08/12/95) #44 - Mitsuharu Misawa vs Kenta Kobashi (AJPW 10/25/95) #43 - Jushin Liger vs Ultimo Dragon (WAR Super J Cup 12/13/95) #40 - Masa Chono & Hiroyoshi Tenzan vs Hiroshi Hase & Kensuke Sasaki (NJPW 03/07/95) #39 - Toshiaki Kawada vs Gary Albright (AJPW 10/25/95) #35 - Manami Toyota vs Aja Kong (AJW 03/26/95) #34 - Kenta Kobashi vs Akira Taue (AJPW 03/21/95) #26 - Shinya Hashimoto & Junji Hirata vs Masa Chono & Hiroyoshi Tenzan (NJPW 06/12/95) #22 - Mitsuharu Misawa vs Toshiaki Kawada (AJPW 07/24/95) #18 - Mitsuharu Misawa vs Kenta Kobashi (AJPW Championship Carnival 03/26/95) #17 - Toshiaki Kawada vs Kenta Kobashi (AJPW Championship Carnival 04/13/95) #16 - Kenta Kobashi vs Akira Taue (AJPW 07/24/95) #15 - Toshiaki Kawada vs Kenta Kobashi (AJPW 01/19/95) #14 - Shinjiro Otani vs Koji Kanemoto (NJPW 04/16/95) #11 - Mitsuharu Misawa & Kenta Kobashi vs Toshiaki Kawada & Akira Taue (AJPW 10/15/95) #8 - Keiji Muto vs Shinya Hashimoto (NJPW G-1 Climax 08/15/95) #5 - Toshiaki Kawada vs Akira Taue (AJPW Championship Carnival 04/08/95) #2 - Mitsuharu Misawa & Kenta Kobashi vs Toshiaki Kawada & Akira Taue (AJPW 06/09/95) #1 - Mitsuharu Misawa vs Akira Taue (AJPW Championship Carnival 04/15/95) #96 - Jushin Liger vs Dick Togo (NJPW Skydiving J 06/17/96) #92 - Masa Chono vs Keiji Muto (NJPW G-1 Climax 08/06/96) #90 - Jushin Liger & Black Tiger vs Shinjiro Otani & Koji Kanemoto (NJPW 02/15/96) #88 - Vader vs Antonio Inoki (NJPW 01/04/96) #83 - Shinya Hashimoto & Junji Hirata vs Yoshihiro Takayama & Yoji Anjo (NJPW 02/25/96) #81 - Mitsuharu Misawa vs Akira Taue (AJPW 05/24/96) #80 - Shiro Koshinaka vs Satoshi Kojima (NJPW G-1 Climax 08/06/96) #79 - Taka Michinoku vs Super Delphin (NJPW Skydiving J 06/17/96) #78 - Shinya Hashimoto & Junji Hirata vs Kazuo Yamazaki & Takashi Iizuka (NJPW 06/12/96) #75 - Jushin Liger vs Shinjiro Otani (NJPW 03/17/96) #73 - Mitsuharu Misawa & Jun Akiyama vs Kenta Kobashi & The Patriot (AJPW 11/22/96) #71 - Riki Choshu vs Shinya Hashimoto (NJPW G-1 Climax 08/02/96) #70 - Jushin Liger, Gran Naniwa & Gran Hamada vs Dick Togo & Taka Michinoku & Shoichi Funaki (Michinoku Pro 08/18/96) #68 - Nobuhiko Takada vs Shiro Koshinaka (NJPW 03/01/96) #63 - Steven Regal vs Shinya Hashimoto (NJPW 09/21/96) #58 - Black Tiger & El Samurai & Gran Hamada vs Shinjiro Otani & Koji Kanemoto & Dean Malenko (NJPW 02/25/96) #57 - Ultimo Dragon vs Great Sasuke (NJPW J*Crown 08/05/96) #53 - Toshiaki Kawada vs Kenta Kobashi (AJPW 05/24/96) #52 - Shinya Hashimoto vs Shiro Koshinaka (NJPW 09/23/96) #50 - Mitsuharu Misawa vs Kenta Kobashi (AJPW 03/31/96) #49 - Genichiro Tenryu vs Great Muta (WAR 10/11/96) #48 - Masa Chono & Hiroyoshi Tenzan vs Kazuo Yamazaki & Takashi Iizuka (NJPW 09/23/96) #45 - Keiji Muto vs Shiro Koshinaka (NJPW G-1 Climax 08/05/96) #44 - Mitsuharu Misawa & Kenta Kobashi & Jun Akiyama vs Toshiaki Kawada & Johnny Ace & Gary Albright (AJPW 04/20/96) #40 - Nobuhiko Takada & Masahito Kakihara vs Tatsumi Fujinami & Yoshiaki Fujiwara (UWFI 06/26/96) #39 - Toshiaki Kawada vs Akira Taue (AJPW 03/31/96) #37 - Mitsuharu Misawa & Jun Akiyama vs Toshiaki Kawada & Akira Taue (AJPW 05/23/96) #33 - Steve Williams vs Akira Taue (AJPW 04/20/96) #30 - Mitsuharu Misawa & Jun Akiyama vs Steve Williams & Johnny Ace (AJPW 11/16/96) #27 - Mitsuharu Misawa & Jun Akiyama vs Steve Williams & Johnny Ace (AJPW 06/07/96) #25 - Mitsuharu Misawa & Jun Akiyama vs Steve Williams & Johnny Ace (AJPW 09/05/96) #22 - Toshiaki Kawada & Akira Taue vs Steve Williams & Johnny Ace (AJPW 11/22/96) #21 - Kenta Kobashi vs Akira Taue (AJPW 07/24/96) #18 - Stan Hansen vs Kenta Kobashi (AJPW 09/05/96) #14 - Toshiaki Kawada vs Kenta Kobashi (AJPW 10/18/96) #13 - Ultimo Dragon vs Shinjiro Otani (NJPW J*Crown 08/05/96) #11 - Wild Pegasus vs Black Tiger (NJPW 06/11/96) #10 - Shinjiro Otani vs El Samurai (NJPW 01/21/96) #8 - Mitsuharu Misawa & Jun Akiyama vs Toshiaki Kawada & Akira Taue (AJPW 07/09/96) #4 - Mitsuharu Misawa & Jun Akiyama vs Toshiaki Kawada & Akira Taue (AJPW 11/29/96) #1 - Mitsuharu Misawa & Jun Akiyama vs Toshiaki Kawada & Akira Taue (AJPW 12/06/96) Setting aside the two obvious things from the lists, a couple of things come to mind and/or are worth thinking about: * it's hard to say that Hash is "under represented" on the Yearbooks Looking at 1993, he had 15 matches, 8 of which made Loss' Top 100. There may have been some matches that I kind of liked that didn't make the cut (his 12/93 defense against Sasaki which reflected well on Hash being able to work looooooong with a not-great worker)... but there probably weren't any Top 100 candidates missed the cut. A lot of his stuff made the Yearbooks. * Hash was well liked in those four Yearbooks A good amount of it was praised and highly thought of. If you read the comments in there threads on his matches (I sampled a dozen for refreshers), he's very praised. Not just by Loss, but by various posters. There also wasn't really a vibe of "Hash is better than I thought", but instead a vibe going in that Hash was great and this is an example of where he was great. * there are a fair number of good / very good AJPW matches from those years left on the cutting room floor I think we've all admitted that given the space limitations. Some of it is repetition of the match ups in AJPW, and some of it is that you can't really put in every cool thing from something like the 1994 Carny. That's not to say that the Kawada-Akiyama and Williams-Akiyama from that Carny would have made the Top 100 of 1994 (which was pretty damn deep), but they were pretty darn cool matches. Something like them from WCWSN (say Vader-Dustin) would have made the set. Things like them from NJPW often made the sets as well. That's just the breaks with AJPW. * the NJPW Juniors do better with you that most would expect given the run of "NJPW Jrs Sux" vibe that now is pretty common 1993 is the exception to that, which wasn't exactly a bang up year for the NJ Juniors. Anyway, I was susprised when looking thought this to see how well they did. * this was kind of interesting, not just for the order but also by the one that's missing: #71 - Riki Choshu vs Shinya Hashimoto (NJPW G-1 Climax 08/02/96) #68 - Nobuhiko Takada vs Shiro Koshinaka (NJPW 03/01/96) #63 - Steven Regal vs Shinya Hashimoto (NJPW 09/21/96) #52 - Shinya Hashimoto vs Shiro Koshinaka (NJPW 09/23/96) #49 - Genichiro Tenryu vs Great Muta (WAR 10/11/96) #35 - Genichiro Tenryu vs Nobuhiko Takada (UWFI 09/11/96) #31 - Nobuhiko Takada vs Genichiro Tenryu (WAR 12/13/96) Not arguing with it, but the most famous and talked about match (over the years) and generally well thought off isn't there, while six of those have been generally obscure in discussions over the years. That is one of the great things about the Yearbooks - people get to see a ton of matches that haven't gotten a lot of run over the years. Anyway... John

Hash: 24Mutoh: 53 Chono: 72 Add in Hase, Choshu, Fujinami, Sasaki and Koshinaka. John

Since when ? The day I stumbled onto puroresu I heard about Hash as being a great fucking wrestler. This. Dylan read my stuff in the Torch in 1996 & 1997. I put Hash over like a motherfucker, more so than Mutoh and Chono. The latest that the hardcore wrestling community "got" that Hash was great was when he won the belt back from Takada and went on his second long run (taking reigns 1+2 as the first long run) with the belt. People were kind of coming to that view near the end of the first run, the G1 final loss to Mutoh and the tag reign with Hirata. But it was clear in the second run. I don't think Hash has been underated ever since, other than those who failed to see what a complete fuck up the later Hash-Ogawa feud was. My guess is that if we look back at the GWE poll that Hash did quite well in it relative to his New Japan heavyweight peers. John

Dave also was slow to get onto Hash being a great worker. He loved Mutoh and Chono among the Three Musketeers, and Hase outside of the three. He wasn't a good judge of Hash at the time, and probably isn't a good one to point to now. John

I thought this was interesting, as my initial thought was that Loss was onto something here... then my thought turned to stuff like the Bret-Yoko cage match. Looking at the Yearbooks and ranking the "WWF Matches of the Year", here are the matches that made Loss' annual Top 100(+) along with other WWF matches that got ***1/2: 1992 #40 - Bret Hart vs Davey Boy Smith (WWF Summerslam 08/29/92) ****1/4 #79 - Randy Savage vs Shawn Michaels (WWF Munich 04/14/92) ***3/4 #87 - Ric Flair vs Bret Hart (WWF Worcester, MA 12/27/92) ***3/4 - Bret Hart vs Roddy Piper (WWF Wrestlemania VIII 04/05/92) ***1/2 - Ric Flair vs Bret Hart (WWF Smack Em Whack Em 10/12/92) ***1/2 1993 #43 - Ric Flair vs Bret Hart (WWF Boston, MA 01/09/93) ****1/4 #64 - Rock & Roll Express vs Heavenly Bodies (WWF Survivor Series 11/24/93) **** #72 - Bret Hart vs Yokozuna (WWF MSG 08/13/93) **** #88 - Bret Hart vs Mr. Perfect (WWF King of the Ring 06/13/93) **** #89 - Marty Jannetty vs Doink the Clown (WWF RAW 06/21/93) **** #91 - Bret Hart vs Bam Bam Bigelow (WWF King of the Ring 06/13/93) **** #92 - Rick & Scott Steiner vs The Quebecers (WWF RAW 09/13/93) **** #96 - Mr. Perfect vs Doink the Clown (WWF RAW 05/24/93) ***3/4 - Bret Hart vs Yokozuna (Inside the WWF 12/15/93) ***1/2 - 1-2-3 Kid vs Marty Jannetty (WWF Monday Night RAW 10/25/93) ***1/2 - Rick & Scott Steiner vs Heavenly Bodies (WWF Summerslam 08/30/93) ***1/2 - Shawn Michaels vs Marty Jannetty (WWF RAW 07/19/93) ***3/4 1994 #7 - Bret Hart vs Owen Hart (WWF Wrestlemania X 03/20/94) ****3/4 #40 - Shawn Michaels & Diesel vs Razor Ramon & 1-2-3 Kid (WWF Action Zone 10/30/94) ****1/4 #45 - Shawn Michaels vs Razor Ramon (WWF Wrestlemania X 03/20/94) **** #50 - Bret Hart vs 1-2-3 Kid (WWF RAW 07/11/94) **** #69 - Rick & Scott Steiner vs Bret & Owen Hart (WWF Wrestlefest 01/11/94) **** #76 - Bret Hart vs Bob Backlund (WWF Superstars 07/30/94) ***3/4 #84 - Shawn Michaels vs Razor Ramon (WWF RAW 08/01/94) ***3/4 #87 - Shawn Michaels vs Razor Ramon (WWF San Jose 01/14/94) ***3/4 - 1-2-3 Kid & Marty Jannetty vs The Quebecers (WWF MSG 01/17/94) ***1/2 1995 #3 - Shawn Michaels vs Razor Ramon (WWF Summerslam 08/27/95) ****3/4 #33 - Bret Hart & Davey Boy Smith vs Owen Hart & Bob Backlund (WWF Action Zone 02/26/95) ****1/4 #49 - Bret Hart vs Diesel (WWF Survivor Series 11/19/95) **** #59 - Shawn Michaels vs Jeff Jarrett (WWF In Your House 07/23/95) **** #65 - Bret Hart vs Diesel (WWF Royal Rumble 01/22/95) ***3/4 #80 - Bret Hart vs Hakushi (WWF In Your House 05/14/95) ***3/4 #84 - Bret Hart vs Davey Boy Smith (WWF In Your House 12/17/95) ***3/4 #92 - Owen Hart, Davey Boy Smith & Yokozuna vs Diesel, Shawn Michaels & Undertaker (WWF RAW 10/09/95) ***1/2 #97 - Bret Hart vs Hakushi (WWF RAW 07/24/95) ***1/2 #101 - Bret Hart vs Jean-Pierre Lafitte (WWF In Your House 09/24/95) ***1/2 #103 - Owen Hart vs Davey Boy Smith (WWF RAW 06/05/95) ***1/2 1996 #16 - Shawn Michaels vs Mankind (WWF Mind Games 09/22/96) ****1/2 #20 - Bret Hart vs Steve Austin (WWF Survivor Series 11/17/96) ****1/2 #72 - Bret Hart vs Shawn Michaels (WWF Wrestlemania XII 03/31/96) ***3/4 #76 - Vader, Owen Hart & Davey Boy Smith vs Shawn Michaels, Ahmed Johnson & Sid (WWF International Incident 07/21/96) ***1/2 #85 - Shawn Michaels vs Owen Hart (WWF In Your House VI 02/18/96) ***1/2 #91 - Shawn Michaels vs Diesel (WWF Good Friends Better Enemies 04/28/96) ***1/2 #99 - Steve Austin vs Marc Mero (WWF King of the Ring 06/23/96) ***1/2 #100 - Shawn Michaels vs Owen Hart (WWF Monday Night RAW 08/12/96) ***1/2 As a sidebar, 1996 is kind of interesting as non-PPV just didn't product as many ***1/2+ matches as prior years. 1990 isn't complete, but here's what has made the grade so far: 1990 - The Rockers vs Powers of Pain (WWF MSG 01/15/90) **** - Hulk Hogan vs Stan Hansen (WWF/AJPW Tokyo Dome 04/13/90) ***3/4 - Randy Savage vs Genichiro Tenryu (WWF/AJPW Tokyo Dome 04/13/90) ***3/4 - Ron Garvin vs Greg Valentine (WWF Royal Rumble 01/21/90) ***1/2 - Hart Foundation vs Rockers (WWF Saturday Night's Main Event 04/28/90) ***1/2 - Mr. Perfect vs Tito Santana (WWF Saturday Night's Main Event 07/28/90) ***1/2 I don't quite know what to make of SNME in 1990. By that point we have the Rumble, Mania, Slam and Survivors so SNME wasn't as big as it had been in say 1986. So it may be more fair to color those. Clearly the Dome matches are "PPV Level". Bret does better than I thought here. He probably has a few other matches that would get similar ratings but were left on the cutting room floor due to being duplicative (there's at least one other very good Yoko-Bret cage match that's on tape via hand held). He has three tv/house show matches that made the cut in 1991 against Flair and Ted (2), with the SNME match with Ted being well rated at the time. Anyway, relative to the standards of the WWF in the early-to-mid 90s, Bret might have done "okay" or "better than okay" in this regard. I'm not a huge fun of WWF tag wrestling in the 80s, and haven't cared for a lot of the Hart Foundation stuff that I've watched. But I'll cop to not watching all of it yet, and it's likely that some decent-to-good stuff is out there. Dittos singles matches. Folks like the Bret-Curt series a heck of a lot more than I do, and there are tons of house show / CHV matches between them out there. I liked the Bret-Ted match from the 80s more, and would probably have it in the ***1/2ish range. Bret-Steamer from 1986 was pretty damn solid. The Savage match in 1987 from SNME shouldn't count since there were just two PPV that year, so SNME was still "major TV". I don't think it makes a GOAT argument for him. But I also think that if someone made a major comp for him, there would be a pretty fair amount of non-PPV stuff from him that was good.

I'm surprised people get hung up on the "The Best There Ever Was" stuff. If you're name isn't Hulk Hogan or Jim Londos, you aren't "The Best There Ever Was"... so who really gives a fuck. In terms of being "the best worker there ever was", the super hardcore fans on this board can't even agree on the best worker... so who really gives a fuck. Was he a good worker? Of course. Does he bore some folks? Sure... but if we asked folks to raise hands around here, we'll find people bored of Flair, Jumbo, Misawa, Kawada, etc. Are there 10 workers we'd rather watch? That means... what exactly? Quick: think of your favorite 10 movies. Then think of another 10 movies that aren't in those 10 that you also think are good. Those are some good movies to you... so your 10 "favs" aren't the limit of good movies out there. Nor are your 10 favorite movies. This thread really is only interesting if there are some folks that want to walk through why they believe Bret is a shitty worker. Otherwise, we generally agree he was a good / solid worker at worst, and one who bored some of us at worst. Like a hundred other workers. John

It looked clean to me. The crowd sure treated it as clean. Seriously... after Hogan and Eric and the nWo has screwed over everyone in sight in WCW for more than a year, it was perfectly "clean". It only got "screwy" the next night on Nitro when they tinkered around with holding the title up.

I liked Bret at the time, and have liked him since them on re-watch. Very good worker. John

Looked clean to the Scorpion to me. John

Man that really was some shit. Luger winning got a huge reaction and it was less than nothing in the scheme of things thanks to the booking. I had zero problem with Lex winning then Hogan getting it right back. Hogan-Sting was the money for the end of the year. Lex's win made people happy on TV, then Hogan getting it back put the heat right back on Hogan. We kind of forget how Hogan turned into a Ric Flair-ish "bitch champion" down the stretch of 1997: * clean job to Lex on Nitro in August * clean job to Piper at Havoc in October * clean job to Sting at Starcade The first two did nothing to kill his heat going into Starcade - it still set WCW records. For a whole year, people wanted to see Hogan get beat. The company delivered in the second half of 1997. The fans ate it up as WCW was hotter than it had even been, or ever would be. John

I suspect that pretty much all of 1986 is available. Probably most of 1985 as the WWE put a fair amount of it out on 24/7. I don't know how much 1983 and 1984 bubbled up in the past few years. There were tape traders doing "best of" stuff back in the 80s that included JCP stuff. I think guys like McAdam would have had some, that in turn circulated. My guess is the JCP 1985 through the end of the decade is largely available. Prior to that is much more spotty.

Some others: Dan's 1974-81 Misc set: October 4, 1977 : Inoki vs Hansen [W=15'49"] May 4, 1979 : Sakaguchi, Inoki vs Brisco, Hansen [W=11'48"] May 25, 1979 : Inoki vs Hansen [W=13'03"] June 1, 1979 : Sakaguchi vs Hansen [W=15'45"] Classics Inoki vs. Stan Hansen 2/2/77 Box that Dan may have: 4/27/79 Umanoseke Ueda vs. Stan Hansen There may be more on box sets and other commercial releases that Dan has. There was a Hansen three disc that came out a couple of years ago. Dan didn't get it at the time, nor put up the full list. A good deal of what might be out there in addition to this would be Inoki related from 1977 and 1979. John

I have to disagree there. He came across as pretty natural and relaxed on the mic, in my opinion. This is a good example, I think. Exactly. Brody could talk. He could do a variety of promos. Some of them were goofy bad. Some of them like this were solid/strong promos.

Nice to see you back on the review beat, Loss.

Alpha order: Steve Austin - I think of the biggest stars of all-time, he along with Rock are the ones that we have the entire careers of. Austin's is more interesting since it passed through the minors to a major where he had an interesting midcard push as a singles and tag then passed to the other major where he wasn't going anywhere, caught a break, made something out of nothing, and crept up before exploding. If one wants to study pro wrestling, I suspect he's the best "complete" example we'll ever find. Good worked, the variety would make him an interesting one to revisit in totality. Bob Backlund - there's a helluva a lot more in the vault yet to come out. Such an odd bird relative to other workers that I've liked over the years that he's a "fav" for being different. Toshiaki Kawada - got to watch him grow from being Tenryu's protege to being Misawa's partner to being Misawa's rival chasing the Great White Whale. I could dip into any point of his 1989-98 career and all the old vibes come back. The Midnight Express & Jim Cornette - they along with Ric Flair turned me into pro wrestling fans. Flair stuck around too long and wore me out. The MX went out while still on top, and there continues to be a lot of their stuff I still haven't seen. Really look forward to the coming set. Jumbo Tsuruta - Love him at every phase of his competitive career, peeking with the last one. Still so much left to watch and enjoy. Obvious picks, with perhaps the exception of Austin.

These clearly exist from AJPW via Classics: Ted DiBiase vs. Rocky Hata (5/2/80) Genichiro Tenryu vs. Ted DiBiase (10/23/83) Genichiro Tenryu vs Ted DiBiase (24/3/1984, JIP) 11/27/85 Riki Choshu vs. Ted Dibiase 04/26/86 Tenryu vs. Ted Dibiase Dan has additional misc AJPW from 1983 and earlier, as to older collectors like Lynch and Frielander. These probably would cough up one or more of the Jumbo-Ted matches in Japan (as opposed to the one in Dallas). There are probably a number of tags pre-Hansen where Ted would be in a more "technical" setting opposite the natives and/or the Funks. But you'd also find a similar amount of Terry and Dick Slater to compare him with in the sense of a more interesting gaijin at his best. My recollection of Ted in the WWF in 1979 was that he was Dory Funk Jr. style: i.e. bland as hell compared to the more theatrical "play to the crowd" mat work of Backlund. All that said, I think there are flashes out there as evidence of Ted being a good mat / hold worker in an old school variety. The 1989 Prime Time match with Bret (that ended up on the Bret DVD) has a long control section by Ted that, to me, blows away similar shitty control sections by Curt opposite Bret. Ted worked his holds well, and brought other offense to the table that was well executed. It's not that ****1/2 match we're all looking for, but it's also the WWF in a house show / Prime Time / CHV type of setting, and you don't get a lot of ****1/2 matches in that setting. I compared it favorably to the Hart-Steamer match that's out there, though it's possible that on rewatch I'd like the Hart-Steamer more. That was sort of a throw away, filler match rather than Bret and Ted going out there to work a classic. It's worked with such ease that you have to suspect that Ted, much like Bret, worked a hundred matches like that against various opponents over the past decade on cards all over the world. Not saying he's a great technical worker. But I suspect that if one sifted through the available matches, you'll find a good number of matches that showed he knew his shit on holds. John

This. A really good tourney out of Dory. I'm drawing a blank on the match with Jumbo, as their other match from Classics sticks in my mind. But Dory-Horst is fantastic, though a large chunk of it is Horst forcing Dory out of his safety zone. Dory-Abby may be the Abby match I enjoy the most simply because it's not really a standard Abby match. Dory-Baron is surprisingly good, to the degree that you really want to see the Baron in more "straight" matches from that era. I like Dory a heck of a lot less than Pete, and probably am closer to Will's view on him (or even more extreme). But that's some good Dory in that League. John