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They were affiliated with the AWA. I don't think Bruiser goes into Detroit without an understanding with Verne. I suspect at the time they simply could have come to an agreement to run it under the larger AWA banner with the AWA Champ / AWA Tag Team champs and AWA TV being sent in. I mean... just what type of business was Bruiser doing in 1982-83? You have the chance to spike up the gates into a 10K range running say monthly show. Again, let Bruiser be the local promoter for a cut, but he really didn't have the talent to run what was a major city. If he doesn't want in, you basically tell him that your talent is otherwise occupied on the nights Bruiser is running Detroit. I know Verne went back a long way with Bruiser and didn't want to piss him off. So you don't go at it cut throat like Vince, but from a business standpoint. John

Which is great: the dead WWA. If Verne was smart, he would have just moved in. Bruiser can get a cut of the action as a local promoter... or get rolled. John

So does anyone know what happened in Detroit between the Sheik's promotion dying in 1980 and Vince starting to run there on 12/30/83? Did Verne make a run at it? I think Ole got as north as Ohio. Seemed like a natural for Verne to use Hogan in 1982 and 1983 to claim that torn. Granted, it was a dead "NWA territory", but Verne seemed to have the okay to go into San Fran. John

Anyone with any credibility saying that? I mean... if SKeith is saying it, who give a fuck, right? Bryan? Dittos. The WON at the time has extensive AWA coverage via Mr. Mike, both looking at the AWA and also the WWF's invasion. He pointed to stuff that drew, cards that didn't, and gave a good overview. I do recall a general gloom that built over time in his stuff, as he seemed to have a sense that some of the things you outlined above were dooming the promotion in the long term. If Dave has changed his tune to the business instantly going to hell, then it's just a matter of Dave not paying attention to what he wrote at the time. It wouldn't be the first time (Jumbo=Lazy). If Bruce said it, no one ever confused Bruce with an AWA expert. Wade... I'm not really sure if he watched enough in 1982-85 AWA at the time to track the decline. I don't think he would have effected Vince much. Vince would have thrown the resources that were needed to win it. He wasn't going to fail in adding Chicago to his list of major cities. The Twin Cities are less important to him in terms of $$$ than in killing off Verne. Hogan was on the first four Chicago cards. When Vince got into the Rosemont Horizon in August 1985, it was Hogan again anchoring the first four shows. Could he have stayed profitable? I guess anyone can stay profitable, as Jarrett and Lawler show. But he would have had to find his Lawler. The odds on that? Who were the people out there who could draw on a sustained level like Hogan, and which did Verne have a shot at? I don't think anyone. He certainly wasn't going to develop one. That's the thing that let JCP survive longer: they had Flair. They went out and got Luger and the Roadies. Dusty grabbed the MX and R'nR at the right time, and it's hard to see Verne doing it. Dusty had Dusty, and while he burned out, he was important in drawing in 1985 as they expanded. JCP also had a core that Vince wasn't able to break into, while Vince didn't have a probably creating a beach head in Chicago or the Twin Cities. In fact, it was more than a beach head in Chicago. Vince was willing to write off Mid Atlantic & Atlanta: it just wasn't important in the 80s for him. He did the same with Texas. AWA was different. He wasn't going to write it off. Verne really had nothing to fight it, and it's hard to see what he could get to do it. John

He's had power since he showed up. It's ebbed and flowed, but he (and Hogan) have Dixie's ear. John

Before folks jump up and down about Russo being fired, Wade had this: Russo sucks, but Eric hasn't done anything positive since coming on. John

No. Fuck Vince Russo. John

I think most everyone has pointed this out: the AWA did good business in 1984. There were some signs of issues, but also signs of good strength. On the other hand, once Vince had Hogan and invaded the AWA with's Vince's long terms plans and with Verne as the opponent, Vince was going to win. Could someone else in change have stopped Vince from taking AWA Land eventually? I'm not certain who could have that was in the business at the time. The analogy that I would use in a sporting sense would be Bobby Bonilla leaving the Pirates after the 1991 season for that monster contract in New York. They also traded away a 20 game winner in John Smiley. The Pirates has just won the NL East the prior two seasons. People expected the roof to fall in. Instead, they won the NL East again in 1992. Why? They were still a good team. They had the best player in baseball. They led the NL in runs, and their pitching was surprisingly good, especially the make shift rotation. Hogan was greater than Bonilla... be frankly was Bonds. But what Bonilla signified was that the Pirates weren't going to be able to pay top dollar for stars. They blew their chance to extend Bonilla earlier for less but what at the time was still top dollar. Worse, they feuded with *Bonds* for years over money rather than extending him when he was younger. Same for their ace, Doug Drabek. It was clear when they lost Bonilla and traded away Smiley that they were going to lose Bonds and Drabek. Worse, not only was there nothing coming up to replace them, but the Big 3 were all going to walk rather than being traded. They were a doomed franchise because they weren't hip to the changing realities of the game. In contrast, the Cleveland Indians of that same era often extended players relatively young: Belle, Manny and Thome among others had years of free agency bought off by the club giving them relatively fair market (given their age) soon into the MLB careers. Since contracts were going up-up-up at the time, those contracts ended up being being very good values for the teams... especially since those players performed. Bonilla was the early warning tipping point that the Pirates were doomed. Hogan leaving for Vince _and_ Vince expanding aggressively into AWA Land _and_ the way he was going about it was the early sign that the AWA was doomed unless Verne joined Vince in the modern world. Verne wasn't capable of doing that, and while he had his equiv of the 1992 Pirates (another NL East title), the handwriting was on the wall. The only way *Verne* would have survived would be for Vince to go bankrupt. I think we've had this discussion before: that was never going to happen, since Vince could simply have pulled back into his successful markets (which he had many major ones), and used those to finance his continuing attack on the primary targets (the AWA being #1). The only way the *AWA* could have survived is if someone with Vince-like vision were in charge, or had Verne's long term full faith and confidence. That doesn't seem possible either at the time or in hindsight. Again, every one agrees (and we've had these discussions a few times) that the AWA did do good business after Hogan left. It's just a matter of whether they could have sustained it. * * * * * * * Reading the MX/Cornette book, I'm struck by something of a similar thing. JCP had such a successful year that one starts thinking about how JCP could have sustained it, avoided the mistakes, focused better and gotten more organized... and could they have challenged Vince better for longer. We all do that... we've all played Fantasy Booker/Promoter of our favorite promotion(s). It's a part of what we do as fans. Even knowing what I know about JCP, and having lived through it... I can't help it. But I do tend to come back to: they never were going to beat Vince. I tend to point to Mania III rather than Survivor Series 1987 as the tipping point. After that one, it was hard to see anyone beating Vince. Could they have stayed a strong #2. I'm more doubtful of that as the years pass. John

That. John

Not fair. I could easily have said the 04/02/95 Weekly Pro Wrestling card since it was one of those once in a lifetime (frankly all of pro wrestling's history of lifetimes) card. Maybe not the best ever, but a pretty mind numbing collection of talent when you think of it... and the ability to see it all one one card, with a number of the matches damn entertaining. That AJPW match isn't close to the best those guys put on, but if I asked every AJPW fan on the board that they if it's the only match between all of the Four Corners that they'd ever have a chance to see... they'd be perfectly happy to see it rather than never seeing them together. John

Crockett was down when BW was first there. Business in 1986 was quite good. Again, I'd point to Cornette's paystubb when the were going around the horn with the R'n'R and looking at the big gates/cities. Those were 5 way splits of the semifinal usually under Flair matches. It's possible that they were 1+1 + .67+.67+.67 splits, where the MX "half" of the payoff was split three ways. From Jimmy's comments, it came across that they were "five way splits" rather than four ways. BW wasn't pushed high when he came in before the initial jump to the WWF, crowds were down, and he left. There's a major difference there: JCP and then WCW ended up "overpaying" certain talent to keep them from jumping. Lex got a massive contract to come from Florida to JCP, then massive to stay when it went to WCW. Flair got a massive contract. The Roadies did. The Steiners eventually got a big contract, but their real push didn't happen until they were under WCW. The MX got $225K per year contracts from Crockett... *each*. That was the downside, so if their weekly pay ended up being below that at the end of the year, JCP had to ballon pay the difference. When it was sold to TBS, those all went to weekly/bi-weekly checks... and pure salary rather than something dictated by the gates. To get an idea: MX = $225K + $225K + $225K = $675K Kamala = $800 MSG sellout * 7 days a week vs Hogan * 52 weeks = $291K Now Kamala didn't work before MSG level sellout crowds every week. Kamala didn't work 7 days a week against Hogan. He didn't do it for 52 weeks. But if he *did*, and his $800 is accurate, then... WWF Hogan Main Event Heel = $291K annual salaries (less rare PPV payoffs in those days) Midnight Express Underneath Flair & Dusty & World Tag Title & Roadies & Lex = $675K combined Is everyone seeing that Kamala is totally and utterly full of shit? No heel works against Hogan 52 weeks of the year. Yet everyone in sight was willing to jump for the shot at facing Hogan because the money was that great. Rick Rude was the Tag Champ, at a time in early 1987 when JCP business wasn't horrible. These were probably the best paydays he'd ever gotten in his life. He jumped to the WWF while still holding the NWA Tag Titles... Because the promise of $$$ was greater in the WWF. And I think there's little doubt he made more per year in the WWF *on average* than he'd made in JCP on a pro rated business. There were no doubt some folks who would make more in JCP/WCW than they would in the WWF. Roadies, Dusty, R'n'R... a number of people were like that. But there no way that someone like Kamala got paid only $800 for selling out MSG opposite Hogan. I'd really need to see that pay stub to buy that. John

When workers start talking about getting stiffed on paydays, that often crosses into "grain of salt" territory in my mind. Just sayin'. Totally agree on this. People who have the Cornette book see the payoffs in there. Those were payoffs that were being split three ways on the heel side: Jimmy, Bobby and Dennis. It's highly unlikely that Kamala's paydays were split three ways. Wiz may have gotten a split similar to Kamala, but I doubt Kimchee was since that was a jobber role anyone could play. Folks weren't coming to the WWF for chump change if they were working mains against Hogan. Kamala did consecutive main events against Hogan. Vince's ticket prices and gates were higher than Watts and JCP. He wasn't getting just $800 for that, nor the other big gates he drew. Unless he was a total idiot and Vince had him conned. John

It was a bit of a throwaway match for SNME. I don't recall it being a major feud around the horn. John

For those wanting to push Fujiwara, one avenue to chase is his impact on training the guys who ended up in UWF 1.0 and 2.0. I know Gotch is given a lot of credit as the godfather of the style... but I've also seen Hisa refer to Maeda and Takada as his "students" and that this was the original Fujiwara Family. Not insignificant, and likely plays to Dave's Pro Wrestling = MMA love. John

Both Dory and Terry went to WTU, at least for a time. I think there's no doubt that they knew they were always following their dad into pro wrestling. Hansen in his book talks about a lot of the football players being wrestling fans and going to the Funk's shows. The other thing is that there were a number of second generation guys among the WTU --> Pro Wrestling group: Tully Blanchard Bruiser Brody Ted DiBiase Bobby Duncum Manny Fernandez Dory Funk Jr. Terry Funk Stan Hansen Kelly Kiniski Blackjack Mulligan Dusty Rhodes Tito Santana Barry Windham That's a pretty good chunk of them. And it's likely that all of those second generation guys were going to end up in Pro Wrestling unless they had some thoughts of going to pro football. John

Yeah... just on the face of it without even watching the match, one would think Roma is full of shit. Steamer was a babyface who LOVED to sell and make heels look good. Pretty much everyone has always said what a pro's pro he was in the ring in making you look good. So it's not surprising that the tape doesn't support Roma. As others say, he's a well known douchebag. John

Okay... I see that Dave was responding to people complaining about him covering MMA, and how he did it, relative to covering Pro Wrestling. And I've always been fine with Dave devoting time and space to MMA. Never mind. John

See below.

Was there a lot of crying by the MMA=Pro Wrestling Brigade? Nick is really screwing up their dreams. John

At least he wasn't arrested for it. John

What Dylan said. SF wasn't great for Verne relative to (i) a normally good core city for a territory, and (ii) what Vince & Hogan would do. Los Angeles was dead. Vince rolled up CA with Hogan: LA, SF, SD, Sacto, all points in between. If Vince had the AWA and Hogan, he would have rolled it up every bit as much, most likely before turning his attention to Verne in New York. Verne may have done some business in AZ, but not really as part of a focus strong "Western Territory" that Vince eyeballed the entire West as. Verne's western business really extended just as far as Denver and SLC. Which is perfectly great if you're an AWA sized super territory. But if you're thinking of rolling up the country, you really needed the rest of the West. Vince's syndication was a key, along with Hogan. John

This Steve Regal is who worked *earlier* in the AWA. AWA --> JCP --> WWF He was the AWA Light Heavyweight (from Buck) and Tag Champ (that goofy win over the Warriors with Garvin). Had a rivalry with Denny Brown for the NWA Jr. Title, had a cup of coffee with it then left to the WWF. The Horsemen were pertty solidly together by the point Regal came in. I do think that Ole was out for a big chunk of the first half of 1986, so you don't see the "group" together as much in that period because he's not around. John

Snuka would have flamed out, just as he actually did. Just not reliable at all. Say what you will about Hogan, and the massive amounts of coke that he shoved up his nose over the years: he was pretty much always in condition to perform, put on a "Hogan Show", and made his dates both in the ring and out of the ring. For all of the praise that Flair gets for the dates he worked, we need to praise Hogan for pretty much always meeting his WWF schedule. I don't even remember any major injuries... even trying to remember minor ones from 1984-92 that kept him out for several weeks draw a blank. Worse: if Hogan was *in* the AWA while Vince tried to expand into AWA Land, Vince would have had issues screwed. Not the Verne was a genius, but it's *possible* that someone in his inner circle would have convinced him that they only was to beat back Vince was: * Hogan as Dynastic Champ An obvious one. * expand into the mid-west between AWA Land and WWF Land Essentially beating Vince to Ohio, Michigan and Indy. Did Verne ever try to move into those areas after Detroit died or Bruiser's promotion went south? * expand West California was a key. In addition, while you're out west, there are other good cities like Phoenix and Tuscon to also do regular house show... *if* your company is strong. Sooner or later, Hulk would have been in an Expanding WWF. Unless someone else did strongly enough to counter it. * * * * * * Side note: If in the middle of 1983 you had this: * Vince in the AWA with Verne's crew * Verne in the WWF with Vince's crew Vince would have still kicked the living shit out of Verne. Vince would have had Hogan, and likely a Verne happy with his empire of New York, Boston, Philly, Baltimore, DC, etc. Verne would have thought no one would move into his territory. John

Hogan wasn't consistently jingoistic. But I thought it best *not* to claim that Vince didn't tape into USA! mania given Hogan's entrance music change from Eye of the Tiger to... Instead I tried to get across that while Sarge was pretty Narrow in how the WWF pushed him as a face and how they would have pushed him in 1984 given the national jingoism going on, Hogan was much more broad in how he was pushed and the storylines of his feuds. John

I've seen that, but also Teddy Ruxpin and the Transformers listed. I'll admit that GI Joe was bigger than I thought. I will also point back to: Sarge joined them in 1986, after Hogan got the belt at the start of 1984, and after Sarge left the WWF. It's not a lock that Vince would have let him have the tie-in if Sarge was the WWF Champ. In fact, there's about a 0% chance Vince would have let it happen unless the majority of the money was going to Vince rather than Sarge. John