jdw

What was the Jaguar bloodbath match in J'd under her alter ego that people liked a lot back in the 90s? Also meant to watch that at some point... is it hosted anywhere? John

I would think the WWE has a lot of control who goes into the game and who doesn't, and who pitches "their" games since the game is more associated with the WWE than the maker in the minds of people. John

Pretty damn cool. I'm guessing we can finally put the stupid "Macho Banged Steph" stuff to bed. John

Forgot to bring them it into the office, but took a quick look at the 1994 Torch. It had the poll for 1994, and listed where/if the wrestlers were ranked in 1992. Dustin was in the 21-30 in 1992. Dropped down a good distance in 1993, and was in the 70s in 1994. In the 21-30 range in 1992 was a pretty strong ranking: a lot of the Usual Suspects from the US and Japan would be packed the Top 20. The lower ranking in 1993 is probably due to: * a large increase in wrestlers from Mexico * a few more guys from Japan popping up * some indy guys starting to get run * perhaps Dustin getting less respect The first was most of it. 1993 was the big spurt in hardcores watching lucha, and the voters in the annual Worker Poll were always the hardest of the hardcores back in those days. The second probably has a bit. The third would be guys like Sabu starting to get pimped, Lynn, etc. Don't know if Dustin had a lower profile in 1993, or perhaps fewer feuds/rivalries to shine. The Austin feud was earlier, the partnering with Steamboat, and pretty consistently in the mix in 1992 with guys to work with. Don't recall if 1993 saw him less focused on strong series or two. 1994 would have been more of the same: * more wrestlers from Mexico building to When Worlds Collide * more guys from Japan popping up: think MPro and the younger NJ Juniors (Koji & Ohtani) * ECW! ECW! ECW! * perhaps Dustin getting less respect I don't think his ranking within WCW changed a great deal over the three years, nor probably in WCW+WWF... though perhaps a few WWF guys got increased rankings. I think that's one thing that can be done with the polls in 1992-95 (if I can find 1995) is to pull out the WWF+WCW guys and see how they're slotted. Anyway, the initial point would be: he was pretty well respected no later than 1992. He wasn't a fogotten or suck wrestler in that year. I'm willing to bet there are positive things in 1991 as well. John

The Dustin stuff was split: * Paise for him as a worker * knocks that he was pushed hard and booked not to lose There are a ton of positive comments about his work, bumping, etc. At a certain point after the initial push-down-the-throats, there never were comments that he *shouldn't* be pushed, simply how hard he was pushed. I suspect that a lot of it was based on the fear that it would be Von Erichs all over again, and Dustin would get pushed to the World Title. That trigger was never set up or pulled, but folks who'd been through Fritz's push of the kids (and other Dads pushing their kids in the business) weren't unreasonable to fear it, especially given Dusty's push of himself the last time he had the book in Crockettville. Still, despite that worry, you'll see the praise of his work a lot in the WON no later than 1992, and it's probably not too hard to find in 1991 as well. Someone probably has the Torch Annuals to see were he's ranked as a worker in the two big companies. I suspect he does pretty well in those years. Don't know if there's one for 1991, but Wade picked up the poll in 1992 and went through at least 1995. John

One was for the whole ball of wax. The other was pushed less than Hogan-Vince, and was sandwiched in build up between Brock-Kurt and Trip-Book as the anchor feuds/matches for each brand. They were the "biggest stars in the company", but had just been brought back. Rock was there for a trilogy of matches (Hogan, Austin, Goldberg) before heading back out... it never felt like the fans really took to Heel Rock at that point, and I don't recall the Backlash PPV doing business. Just don't think there was the drama there in 2003, where as 2001 was batshit intense. John

As one who has been critical of Shawn, even I don't think that liking Shawn disqualifies someone from being treated seriously. John

Agree on the DVR comments. You don't even have to individually record things, or track when they air. You can set a series recording, and bam it's recorded even if it changes night. There still would have been flipping if the DVR existed in the old days: people don't like sitting through commercials. But overall ratings (rather than fast overnights) would have been higher if there were DVR's in 1996-2001. The people who watched both shows by "flipping dvr'd the "other" show, and watched it. They've created a new ratings category specifically because people watch stuff later on DVR rather than just watching things live. Dave was an old school vcr taper. It was a natural part of his every day life. A lot of his subs in the 80s were the same way. He projects that a bit onto the mass of Raw/Nitro viewers. The mass of TV viewers were a lot less vcr-ing as the 90s went on. "Taping" has gone way up since the days of Tievo and even moreso with the dvr. Truly a new world. That doesn't mean that Jeffey isn't talking out of his ass. If every WWE viewer was dvr'ing TNA and then watching it in short order, it would be reflected in that new ratings category, and everyone down in TNA-land would be crowing about what a massive turnaround the company has had. Instead, there aren't that many people watching TNA. John

I'm trying to remember... didn't Sasaki come out and Takada blew him off? With Kosh, he had history so that was nice. And Hash was the Man in NJPW. John

At the time, I really hated his "Hyper Ric" persona. Felt like one of his many mid-life crisis where he thought the only way he could remain relevant was cranking things up to 11 (or 12... 13...). He's retained much of that Hyper Ric persona from that time on, and I just don't think that persona is as good on the mic as his one in the 80s, nor find it entertaining at all. Kind of a contrast to Hollywood Hogan, which was a new persona for Hogan that I thought was often really well done. John

I love the 2001 match. Think I had it #2 on the SC Poll on the greatest WWWF/WWF/WWE match of all-time. Pretty much is the definative WWF spectacle. I've never had a problem with the finish, nor the concept of turning Austin on that card. It actually wasn't a bad time for it, as Austin hadn't exactly been red hot after coming back from the injury. The pairing with Trip, and at times looking the lesser of the two, was the bigger problem. Worse was getting tossed into the clusterfuck feud with Taker & Kane rather than what had been set up strongly: Austin vs Trip, with Trip putting over the new top heel. John

me either I think this a scam as well, and I don't know why Dave & Bryan gave him time or at least had a followup acknowledging that it was stupid to do so, but... Man, you're a douche. Before someone drags this over to Bryan, they should get my full post that the edited sentence is from rather than just the chop job by Dylan. My full comment isn't remotely that harsh. John

I don't think Bryan is very knowledgable about scams and cons in the bigger picture. Many of the best scams are ones that offer to the mark the illussion of getting something of value in return for your money, but that something is of extremely limited value/cost to the scammer. John

I'm not sure that Ross is entirely objective on that one. Freshman Walker > Freshman Dupree, who by that point was already showing signs of problems. John

I'm not sure how much big money he was making in the 80s. Certainly enough to do the WON as a fulltime gig, but I don't think a ton. My recollection is that the big breakthrough was getting The National Sports Daily column. Dave also has never been a tech, so if using a typewriter worked for him, he'd stick with it. The WON looks like it's done in Word / Word Perfect... it's worked for him for close to 20 years... no point in moving to something else. I think if you weren't using computers and word processing software in the late 80s, it just wouldn't pop into your head to use them. I didn't use them at all through college (1984-88). Papers were done on a typewriter. Started using a PC on the job in 1988, and kind of had to force myself to learn them. But even then they were a bit cutting edge. The younger attorneys used them, the older attorneys dictated. It was similar in my fathers office: older attorneys dictated and it went to the "typing pool", while the younger ones and the paralegals were trying to learn the PC. Actually, I suspect my first year that I did more dictating and writing out for someone to type up, while learning the PC by editing what had been typed up. Dave would have gotten through college 5-6 years ahead of me. No computers at the time... his newspaper jobs may have been typewriter driven as well. PC's also weren't cheap in the 80s. So I could see given his personality (what works for him tends to keep working for him) and the times that he went PC at the time that he did. Wade was always more cutting edge, which I think Dave would even admit. I don't think Wade went to PC/Mac much before Dave. Different era... early days of computers making their way home, and the concept of PC's in the "home office". Suspect that we'd find a lot of the other non-wrestling Home Published Newsletters of the era done on typewriters or old school wordprocessors rather than computers. John

I'm sure it will be great after Wile E. Heyman's last great idea: Brock vs Taker. Wait... that was probably Kevin Dunn's idea now that it's dead. John

As was pointed out earlier in the thread, Dave already went the panel route. John

There's a hell of a lot of AJPW stuff of his out there. From Dan's original tv sets: Bold = also aired on Classics (usually in full) 5/2/87 (taped 5/1, 4/23) 3. Giant Baba/John Tenta vs. Goro Tsurumi/Rusher Kimura (7:00 shown) 5/9/87 (taped ?) 2. John Tenta vs. Masanobu Kurisu (6:28 shown) 5/16/87 1. John Tenta vs. Brady Boone (5:01 shown) 5/23/87 1. John Tenta/Tatsumi Kitahara vs. Ashura Hara/Jason the Terrible (6:28 shown) 5/30/87 2. John Tenta/Genichiro Tenryu vs. Rusher Kimura/Goro Tsurumi (9:22 shown) 6/5/87 1. John Tenta vs. Karl Von Steiger (5:34 shown) 6/27/87 2. Yoshiaki Yatsu vs. John Tenta (4:47 shown) 10/17/87 1. John Tenta/Giant Baba vs. Tiger Jeet Singh/? (4:35 of 7:03 shown) 10/24/87 3. Road Warriors vs. Jumbo Tsuruta/John Tenta (5:38 complete) 10/31/87 Special 2. John Tenta/Isao Takagi vs. Genichiro Tenryu/Ashura Hara (5:43 complete) 11/21/87 1. Terry/Dory Funk Jr. vs. Great Kabuki/John Tenta (1:00 of &;02 shown) 11/28/87 2. Abdullah the Butcher/TNT vs. John Tenta/Great Kabuki (7:18 of 8:56 shown) 1/9/88 (taped 1/9/88 ) 1. Giant Baba/John Tenta vs. Rusher Kimura/Goro Tsurumi (2:48 of 6:36 aired) 2/6/88 (taped 1/28/88 ) 4. Jumbo Tsuruta/John Tenta vs. Abby/TNT (10:28 complete) 2/13/88 (taped 1/29/88 ) 3. Genichiro Tenryu/Ashura Hara vs. John Tenta/Isao Takagi (8:32 complete) 2/29/88 (taped 2/29/88 ) 2. Genichiro Tenryu/Ashura Hara vs. Yoshiaki Yatsu/John Tenta (12:20 complete) 3/19/88 (taped 3/9, 3/11/88 ) 2. John Tenta/Shunji Takano vs. Stan Hansen/Terry Gordy (5:15 complete) 3/26/88 (taped 3/26/88 ) 4. Jumbo Tsuruta/John Tenta vs. Bruiser Brody/Big Bubba (6:35 of 10:14 aired) 5/1/88 (taped 4/21/88 ) 2. Bruiser Brody/Jimmy Snuka vs. Yoshikai Yatsu/John Tenta (5:27 of 9:51 aired) 5/22/88 (taped 5/19/88 ) 2. Jumbo Tsuruta/John Tenta vs. Tiger Jeet Singh/Jesse Barr (6:47 of 10:11 aired) 10/9/88 (taped 10/3/88 ) 2. Yoshiaki Yatsu/John Tenta vs. Genichiro Tenryu/Toshiaki Kawada (13:54 complete) 10/16/88 (taped 10/12/88 ) 2. Yoshiaki Yatsu/John Tenta vs. Abby/Greg Brown (6:46 of 9:12 aired) 10/30/88 (taped 10/26/88 ) 1. Great Kabuki/John Tenta vs. Dan Spivey/Doug Furnas (5:35 of 12:21 aired) 11/20/88 (taped 11/19/88 ) 1. John Tenta/Shunji Takano vs. Stan Hansen/Terry Gordy (11:08 complete) All Japan Pro Wrestling (January 5 & January 15 1989) 2. Genechiro Tenryu & Toshiaki Kawada vs John Tenta & Shunji Takano All Japan Pro Wrestling (January 22 & Janauary 29 1989) 3. Dan Spivey & Brian Adams vs John Tenta & Osao Takagi All Japan Pro Wrestling (August 2 1989) 1. Yoshiaki Yatsu vs John Tenta 4. Giant Baba, Rusher Kimura & John Tenta vs Jumbo Tsuarta, Great Kabuki & Masa Fuchi All Japan Pro Wrestling (August 20 & August 27 1989) 5. Yoshakai Yatsu, Great Kabuki & John Tenta vs Abullah the Butcher, Pez Whatley & Tiger Conway Jr Here are the matches that made Classics, with what looks like 3-4 additional matches (depending on if the dates on the RW match are off on one): 05/09/87 Masanobu Kurisu vs John Tenta 05/01/87 Baba & John Tenta vs Rusher Kimura & Goro Tsurumi 06/08/87 Jumbo Tsuruta & John Tenta vs Animal Warrior & Hawk Warrior 12/11/87 John Tenta & The Great Kabuki vs The Terminator & Tom Zenk 01/28/88 Jumbo Tsuruta & John Tenta vs Abdullah The Butcher & TNT 03/26/88 Jumbo Tsuruta & John Tenta vs Bruiser Brody & Big Bubba Rogers 03/27/88 Yoshiaki Yatsu & John Tenta vs Abdullah The Butcher & Tiger Jeet Singh 07/16/89 Jumbo Tsuruta & The Great Kabuki & Masanobu Fuchi vs Giant Baba & Rusher Kimura & John Tenta 09/02/89 John Tenta & The Great Kabuki vs Tiger ConwayJr & Shaska Whatley I believe that's 32-33 matches, which is a pretty fair number for gaijin in that era who aren't the very top regular stars and in just two and a half years. I would be surprised if the Can-Am had 33-33 tv matches in their first two and a half years. Kroffat had about 64 matches on TV from 9/88 through the end of 1995... over seven years. Furnase about 55 in the same time frame of 7+ years. So that's a heck of amount of footage for Tenta in Japan. John

Looks like Brock is going to coach a coming TUF season, and Dana said that Brock won't have anything to do with the WWE. No joy in Stamford? And among MMA=pro wrestling fans? John

It sounds like the level below "Super Elite" is wide for him. John

I think the Jeff would have a bit of a problem coming back. The WWE tends to avoid people when they get on Death Watch. Not 100%, but pretty consistent. Jeff has no desire to stay remotely sober, and the WWE would have very little cover if he drops dead on their watch: (i) all those flunked tests, (ii) their prior parting ways with him over dope, and (iii) his legal issues. I wouldn't say "never say never", but he's at the level they tend to side step. John

Ivan and Bearcat aren't in because Dave doesn't push them hard enough. John

I suspect Dave would point to the degree to which Jerry got over and drew in those territories. Take Dallas. He got over and drew there, relative to where the promotion sank. But as over and the draw that Chris & Gino were at their peak opposite the Von Erichs? That's the type of thing he'd ask. Not saying that I'd make the argument, but it's the type of thing that one needs to be prepared for. I try to avoid making the most extreme cases these days, and instead the most reasonably defendable ones. John

Keith's point is pretty interesting. Curtis Iaukea Pedro Morales Ivan Koloff Mark Lewin Dick Murdoch Johnny Powers Jimmy Snuka Barry Windham Bearcat Wright John Tolos Kinji Shibuya Rocky Johnson Tim Woods Sgt. Slaughter Paul Orndorff Ken Patera Don Muraco Mr. Wrestling II Leo Nomellini Dom DeNucci Ole Anderson Hans Schmidt That's 22 who aren't in the HOF. Most of them aren't even getting a whiff of the HOF. You go down the list and hit guys like Johnny Powers (due to New Japan one suspects) and Dom DeNucci (er...) and you really can't reach any conclusion other than Jerry is a *very* low end HOFer in Dave's eyes. My guess is that Dave is going on the "any *one* of these items" point: In the sense of "Bearcat Wright got over in more places than Jerry Lawler", not in the sense that Dave think's Bearcat's HOF argument is stronger than Jerry's. I don't think there's any way to read it other than that, or it kind of shoots a hole in Dave's decision to put Jerry in the HOF. He is after all the person who thought Jerry Lawler > Dick Murdoch in terms of going in the HOF. I don't think he's ever said he thinks he made a mistake on that decision. John

Jeff is lucky that the Wellness Program didn't cover his entire time with the promotion. Lord knows how many dope tests he flunked in the WWF/WWE, and how many other times the company believed he was in bad shape but it just didn't happen to be his turn for dope testing. John