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What Bix said. John

Or just say "my boyfriend". Orlando is bi, and has been pushing for doing this angle/gimmick for several years. Given this is wrestling, and Russo is a shit writer, it's likely to be extremely poorly written. On Naitch... it's not terribly surprising. John

Bret-Vince was really bad. It's a match that Patterson could have laid out a miracle with... but this was just a mess. Frankly should win Worst Match of the Year given the years of build and the tv time building it up this year. John

50 The video isn't too bad given they couldn't use WWE footage. In a way, the out-of-the ring pictures (like the ones of Davey Boy and especially Hawk) make them look more "human" and less like wrestling cartoon characters who can be ignored. John

He went to Mania in 1996. The 2008 is... odd. So what if Yahoo doesn't pay him to go to Mania. Dave makes enough to pay for it out of his own pocket. Since his boss understood, it doesn't sound like Yahoo would have fired him over it. Dave's spent a hell of a lot more traveling over the years than a trip to Mania would have cost. Perhaps the "family" comment means more. Was his second child born around then? He's traveled to Vegas for UFC over the years... one would suspect in 2008 as well. Flying out Friday and flying back Monday for Mania doesn't sound a great deal different than a typical UFC trip when doing the weigh-ins. Were the other MMA reporters unable to make the trip to cover Strikeforce? Perhaps since it was in Dave's backyard, there was pressure for him to cover it and save having someone else go. I don't quibble with Dave's decision. Hell, I recall a comment at the time that if he thought it really was Flair's last match, he would have gone. Wait... that was about the Flair-Hogan match back in 1994. Anyway, I just don't think the answer is super clear. I think he had solid reasons for doing Strikeforce rather than Mania, but a scratched our response on a board doesn't really do justice to what went into the decision. And I could understand Dave not wanting to spend more time explaining it. John

I don't recall the Hash bio being overly short. I'll have to dig it up and take a look. My recollection is that the two things that jumped out to me were: * Dave never quite "got" at the time Choshu's long term booking of Hash from back to 1989 and then through 1997 * Dave was always less negative on the Hash-Ogawa feud than I was I think on the first one, there was a more recent comment by Dave somewhere in some piece that seemed to get some of the later stages. On the second, I don't think Dave and I will ever agree on Hash-Ogawa. There was a funny thread (or perhaps just a subsection of a thread) where we "talked" about it. John

I think: * the 2nd (Bunkhouse) was already in the books by the time Starcade was failing * the 3rd (GAB) came at a time when they were deeper into negotiations with Turner I always thought GAB was the first indication of where they were headed, but things didn't get done in time to save Arn & Tully from jumping. Not surprisingly given what a screw up JCP was in those last two years. Turner probably got a big cut of the $$$ for GAB. It also was likely the typical slow payout form the cable companies and middle men that helped kill off JCP getting enough $$$ to retain Arn & Tully. John

I don't think Dusty had any desire to take a break. Super Booking Genius, and he loved calling the shots. My preference would have been for him to take a break from the *wrestling* and focus on the book, and building a team to run a national promotion. I don't know... perhaps at the time you cut in Turner, you also give Dusty a cut similar to what the Brothers did with Dana White. 5-10%... Dusty has a vested interesting in the group... get him out of the ring... turn him into the old Bill Watts role... and limit his "comebacks" to a single GAB Tour every two years in just tag matches underneath the double main events. "Retire" at Starcade 1986, GAB Comebacks for 1988, 1990, etc. If your goal is to get Starcade on PPV in 1987, then shoot for lauching a second PPV with the GAB in 1988 with Dusty's "special return" as one of the other selling points. Long term planning. Dusty was really quite suffocating as a wrestler by the middle of 1987... and it went on for more than a year and a half afte that. 1986 would have been a great send off for him: win the World Title at the Bash, and then line up a proper Final Match at Starcade. "It's a new era for new stars..." type of promo. Let Crockett give him the equiv of Commissioner back then. Can't be President of the NWA... but give him some other NWA related handle like Chairman of the Competition Committee or some such bullshit. Don't get him physically involved in matches, and have a nice running joke of heels wanting to smack him around but if they do they'll get suspended and "blacklisted" from the NWA (yes... use that term). Heels keep backing off from that one because (as JJ and Corny can explain) that would cost them their livelihood and they wouldn't be able to feed their kids, yadder, yadder. Then when someone actually does layout Dusty with a chair in 1988, it's a "Holy Shit" moment built up for a year and a half. My worry about Barry getting the title in 1987 is that it's a Career Peak and then a Career Dead End. What does Barry's career look like if he's instantly down at a non-World Title level. I think in those days there always was the risk of being Tommy Rich. I think even Savage never was in the WWF (in his first run) quite at the same level after his first World Title run. They flat out busted their ass to make the feud with Warrior work, and it did. But the Macho King gimmick was a far cry from his 1986-89 peak. His stuff with Flair had a shot, but they couldn't bring it off. It was a different era, and the World Title (in both promotions) was just an entirely different level. Very few people like Dusty could take a Cup of Coffee with it and *not* have it impact their careers where they looked lesser once they no longer held the belt. I'm not even sure that Kerry for the rest of 1984 and into 1985 was quite the same after he had fullfilled the Quest of the Von Erics going back more than a decade. Perhaps on a local level they could pawn off how Kerry got screwed in Japan, but if you're a national promotion... back then it was kind of hard to bury that this guy who won the title is now just one of the guys, especially when you're a face. That's not a problem as much with an older vet. But Barry at the time looked like he had a great future. I'm totally down with you on Ted. But I wouldn't have wasted my time buying the UWF and doing a UWF vs NWA feud. I simply would have picked off talent. Dusty had issues with some of them, which is too bad. Of course the Birds were out-of-control to some degree, but lordy they would have been a nice compliment to JCP (especially if Gordy took the time to get the knee done). Of course Ted being brought in would have been great, and like I said above, I would have put him with the Horsemen with Flair going face. Don't know if I would have gone face with Flair forever, but by 1987-88, the time was really ripe for him to go face. You just needed a strong World Champ level heel opposite him. Can't think of anyone better for that role than Ted. John

Here's the problem: No one knows what the "plan" was. We've got loads of speculation, and whatever bullshit Dusty and others have chosen to spin out since then as they fondly look back on those days and which we shouldn't take with much cerdibility. Dusty *never* was going to become Baba working comedy matches, or their JCP equiv. This is a guy who in his dying days with the company inserted himself into a feud with the Road Warriors teaming with one of the two hottest "rising stars" of the promotion, then cut the classic "I Am The NWA" promo on his way out the door. You think Dusty had a plan to stop pushing himself prior to 1990? What more could one do with Nikita at that point? He feuded with the Roadies. He feuded with the R'n'R. He feuded with Maggie. Where do you go with him? Frankly the face turn gave him something of a breath of fresh air that to a degree lasted through the Bash (and dropping the title to Lex). Honestly... what do they do with him as a heel from October 1986 to July 1987 without the face turn? Feud with Dusty? They did the Russians vs Dusty & Manny years before. I don't think Nikita benefits at all by Maggie *not* getting hurt. Nikita's career just hits the wall earlier. You've got that mixed up. Horseman Lex = Super Heel, not a Super Babyface. You only run Lex-Nikita if Lex is a face, or Nikita is a face. Dusty would *flat out* not want Lex to come in as a face if Maggie was still around. Too much risk of Lex stealing Maggie's thunder if the plan is your dream of Franchise Maggie. The reason Lex got tossed with the Horsemen was to learn the ropes more, surround him with workers who could carry things, and with guys who could carry interviews. And of course to give his eventual face turn more impact. In a sense it was a combo "learning period" and "side drain period" to avoid instantly doing what some would think as the obvious: Lex-Flair with Lex as the JCP Hogan. I'm not an advocate of Lex as the JCP Hogan, and was perfectly happy when they tossed him with the Horsemen. It moved the push futher down the road. And it's almost certainly what Dusty would have done if Maggie hadn't had the accident. Then again, it's *possible* that JCP would never have thrown the cash at Lex if they had Maggie. Not sure how that would have worked out. So this is talking about Starcade 1987? I'm not sure how they would have booked 1987 if they had Maggie, Lex and Barry. I'm not even sure they would have had all three if Maggie hadn't gone down. One suspects they would have had Barry since FL was dying and Dusty & Barry go back a long ways. But Lex... just don't know. Since it was ever so obvious that Long Term he was going to be a Top Babyface, and Dusty had a habit of protecting those slots for Himself and His Pals, I'm less confident that he would want Lex in there presenting a risk to Maggie. Without Maggie, the company *had* to make a big play to get Lex and eyeball him as the long term Franchise (which he very much was when they signed him). They had to make a play to get Barry, which they may or may not have done without Maggie going down. He clearly had a long term role in Dusty's mind, *possibly* as the Next Flair with an eventual heel turn well down the road. The company ended up being forced to push Sting, who was almost an accident in how he blew up. If there was a Maggie, how likely would it have been that Sting/Lex would be the anchors of the promotion in the 1988-91 period in addition to Flair? I just don't see it. Watched it at the time, and thought it was tragic when it happened. But I was more enthused about Barry and Lex coming in than about Maggie going down. John

Completely agree that Starcade '87 would have been a failure. I really think that JCP should have joined hands with Turner in some form before going onto PPV. They needed some muscle within the industry to get on PPV. Ted wasn't exactly the most beloved person within the cable world, but he did have cha-ching with TBS & CNN & HDN at his back. Not sure how I would approach it. Probably rather than wasting time with the UWF purchase (and instead focus on picking off Watts' talent like Ted), they should have been talking to Ted in January 1987 about buying a piece of JCP and working towards Starcade '87 being cleared on PPV. JCP would have looked its most attractive at that point as they were doing reasonably well in their national expansion (though admittedly disoranized), coming off the success of Starcade, and the big hype of Wrestlemania III was building and Ted might of gotten a hardon to get himself some of that while wrestling was "hot". John

I think the Maggie accident gets blamed for too much. Maggie wasn't Hogan, and never would have been even among JCP Fans. I think there was a national shelf life there, much like there was on the R'n'R. And Dusty's style of booking (heels almost always screwing over faces) wasn't going to do Maggie any favors in the long run, especially after he had a taste of the World Title if that's where he was headed. I'm not 100% certain the face one could have tried to run opposite Hogan. I don't think there was one at the time. The only one that comes to mind and would have fully fit the JCP style of storytelling would be Austin. Hogan as the larger than life cartoon character, while Austin is a bad ass, asskicker. Maggie wasn't that. Sure, Dusty and he kicked a lot of Horsemen ass. But so did Ricky Morton. Think about King Kong Bundy bitching out to Dynamite Kid half a year before Mania '86. I think Dusty would have run into the same brickwall with Maggie that he did with Sting and Lex: Dusty doesn't book for a dynastic face. Even himself as the Lead Ubber Face wasn't the champ. Dusty was able to get away with it for a decade, but even he started running into issues as they went national. John

On Flair... He was a good draw as World Champ from 1981 to 1986. That's not to say he never drew after, nor to say that he was always red hot from 1981-86. Just to say: He was a good draw as World Champ for at least 5 years. It's really hard to argue he never should have been World Champ, or that he never drew as World Champ. In fact... it's a petty stupid argument. What he drew relative to Hogan prior to 1986 wasn't too relevant. Ric was still touring for much of that period, and it seems like most of the NWA promoters were happy with his drawing power compared to other options. In fact, the complaint was more about getting appearances from him. Sure, at some point folks like Fritz decided that having his own World Champ was needed for various reasons. But I don't think they ever had major issues with Flair's drawing ability. 1986 was a bit of a turning point, though Crockett did reasonable business expanding nationally. I think Flair as Champ wasn't an issue in 1986, as he made for a good contrast to the WWF. At that point, promoting opposite the WWF with Hogan Jr. probably wouldn't have been a good idea while establishing yourself. Crockett had other issues that perhaps kept them from making a stronger base in 1986, and overtime came back to haunt them. After 1986, I think Flair as heel champ was one of their issues. Not the biggest, not a critical one, but certainly one. The faces chasing him forever with the same shit saving the title just starts to play out after a while. A few weeks breaking up the long Flair reigns really don't change the constant equation that he had the belt, the faces always got screwed, and you get tired of that as a fan. I liked Flair, yet I could see the issue. I don't think that's entirely *Flair's* fault, or even much of it. They didn't have great alternatives as champ. I still don't think that Lex as a long term face anchor Champ opposite Hogan was a fantatic idea. I don't think in Crockett or in Turner than Sting in that role would have been very successful even if they hit it out of the park. [in contrast, if Warrior and Sting traded places in Jan 1988, Vince would have made a SHITLOAD of money off Sting... unless Hogan felt so threatened that he cut him off. Just a matter of right person, wrong promotion.] And no one else was a great face anchor, which to a degree was needed after the long term Flair run. John

This is why I said way back in the thread (and in other places) that the DC of CT shouldn't waste money and resources slogging Linda. The GOP opponents would do it for them if she ever looked like a threat. Let them damage her even if she got through, then spend the money in the General. Plus, at the time, they needed the money to rehap Dodd. Now with Blumenthal, there isn't any need to rehab. She will get beaten by a wide margin in the General. John

Which is not to knock the piece on Wittenberg. Nice little piece. Just... want... the freaking Doc bio... John

A page and a half on Henry Wittenberg? Clearly Dave is now fucking with all of us that want a Dr. Death obit. John

Sandy Scott actually has the potential for being a very interesting bio. Guys like The Crazy Wrestling Classics Director use to pimp Sandy as a HOF candidate. Of course they pimped everyone involved with Mid Atlantic in the 70s as a HOF, spreading the "credit" around like butter. But Scott sounded interesting, and a good opportunity to give an overview of Mid Atlantic in the 70s. Don't quite know if Dave has that type of bio in him at the moment. Doc is... just strange. His career lined up with the WON Era. He had that "legit sports background" that Dave gets a woody over. Double since part of the background was amatuer wrestling. Interesting career path: * in Mid South at a time when it had a strong hardcore following * and example of Crockett's issues with UWF * both major Japanese promotions, and moving up the gaijin ladder in All Japan He's also someone to explore themes such "how do we promote this guy". Really an chance for an interesting bio. John

This application sounds a lot like Vince: http://www.eurofound.europa.eu/emire/IRELA...NAGEMENT-IR.htm John

Got three pages on Angelo. Doc is still dead. John

Two different things: * it seems unlikely that TNA has ever been profitable for a year It's just hard to imagine how that's possible given the talent they have. We know Sting has been paid. Angle didn't jump for free. Nash didn't work for free. Cactus didn't work for free. Their payroll if of course lower than the WWE. But what's their revenue stream? The house show business looks to be far from thriving. And PPV can't be a great deal once you take out the cut for the cable companies and the middle men. Look at how far the WWE's buys have dropped in the US, where the international buys have made up some of that decline. Does anyone thing TNA does that level of international business relatively speaking? * I'm not sure that WCW was ever a major drain on Turner/Time Warner One of the quotes Tom has above if from me where I talk about how the "WCW Bucket" didn't remotely come close to representing the revenue that WCW Content brought into Turner/Time Warner. While "WCW" lost money in the last few years, that doesn't mean that the *rest* of Turner/Time Warner didn't take in more than that amount even after you factor in that they "paid" to WCW for content. That's not to say WCW was healthy that last year or 20 months. The Turner/Time Warner model works best when it's something like the Braves in the 90s: Turner/Time Warner *vastly* under pays for the value of the TV Contract, but the Braves have enough other revenue sources that they're not terribly bleeding money. The Braves worked within their corporate budget, while the rest of Time Warner made money hand over fist on that under priced content. WCW at it's peak was similar. As others point out: TNA doesn't add anything to the Parent's other revenue streams. Panda doesn't market entertainment content. Turner/Time Warner did. John

As a 27 year old adult who has read and heard plenty about the lifestyle during the '80's, not surprised at all. As a nineteen year old, mostly mark, who read Pure Dynamite and read that Bret Hart, who'd always been heralded as the hero and role model, yes, it took me by surprise. I guess by the time I was 19 (which was 1985), I'd had enough expericance around coke that very little of the 80s lifestyle surprised me. I was a pot & bear guy. But when from the age of 15 on you're around friends who snorted "recreationally" in some cases and were flat out addicted in other cases, so much for surprise. "Role models" was always a boondoggle to me. Pittsburgh trial in Baseball? I did bongloads with plenty of the respected role models in my school, and watched plenty of others do lines, including half our respected championship volleyball team. I'm a little surprised that come the early 00's that folks in their late teens would be surprised by *anyone* having an alegation of drug use or banging pussy made against them. I would have thought that in their first 19 years they would have seen enough news stories of hero and role models not being perfect people when it comes to drugs, booze and pussy. :/ John

Stand corrected. John

The one thing that struck me instantly about the book with respect to "honesty" is what it has to say about DK banging rats all over the country. Remember that stuff in the book? *looks around* *hears crickets* DK may have had his reasons for avoiding all talk of it. Perhaps he felt some guilt about it... who knows. I'm not one who thinks that wrestlers need to talk about that, unless like they're trying to put over what great family men they are while also claiming to write a completely open and honest book. DK didn't claim to be a great family man. But people put over the book as the most nakedly honest and open book ever written. And much like coke was common in wrestling in the 80s, banging rats has *always* been common in wrestling through the years. That DK ducked the issue kind of stands out, and warrant at least a note that he wasn't being completely honest. I always was surprised that reviews that put over the book ignored the obvious. Bret said a lot of nutty stuff in the book. He at least was honest, in his own self centered fashion, about his taste for pussy on the road. John

I think DK talked about snorting coke rather than smoking crack with JYD and Bret. I'm not sure why anyone would be surprised about wrestlers in the 80s doing coke. John

Hisa is still up and running: http://wrestling-titles.com Also has a board where if there's a title he doesn't have, you can always ask about it and one of the contributors might have something. For old websites, archive.org is often a useful place to dig up stuff. Not perfect, and something you have to try different versions of a site before you find what you're looking for. But useful. An example if being able to find the old AJPW subdomain of puroresufan.com. Don't know what the story is between Stuart and the guy who ran it, as the current AJPW page seems to be done by someone else with much less historical info. John