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Who is Ichiban? John

Hulk is the greatest. Only he has the balls to lie on this epic of a scale. John

Yeah... Jake was a strange tweener space before they fully turned him. Savage and Roberts had what looks like some "trial runs" on 10/22/86, 10/23/86 and 11/03/86 before their SNME matche taped on 11/15/86 and airing 11/29/89. At the time he was feuding with JYD, but also started working a bit with Savage and various faces like Tito and Koko. Take a look at his opponents into 1987: January 1987 Randy Savage Billy Jack Haynes George Steele King Kong Bundy Butch Reed Cpl. Kirchner Paul Orndorff Hulk Hogan Tony Garea (sub. for the Junkyard Dog) Roddy Piper February 1987 Tito Santana Kamala Pedro Morales George Steele Ted Arcidi King Kong Bundy Butch Reed The Junkyard Dog Hulk Hogan March 1987 Kamala w/ Piper vs Harley Race & Adrian Adonis w/Duggan vs Hart Foundation Iron Sheik w/ Martel & Crusher vs Adonis & Race & HTM w/ Steele & Crusher vs Orndorff & Race & HTM Honkytonk Man I think it was when Honky hit him with the guitar that he fully turned face. That was taped 1/27/87 and aired 2/22/87, setting up their Mania match. By March he was 100% face, but even in late February he was working with Hogan. The way the WWF and even Crockett were booked in 1986/87 was amazing in how things were all over the place. Since they worked some cities monthly, other ones less often, and storlines getting ahead in some cities, you'd have things like: 01/11/86 Tito vs Savage - Boston 02/08/86 Tito vs Savage - Boston 03/08/86 Tito vs Savage - Boston 12/07/85 Tito & Atlas vs Savage & Ventura - Spectrum 03/07/86 Tito vs Savage - Spectrum 05/07/86 Tito vs Savage - Spectrum 05/31/86 Tito vs Savage (No DQ) - Spectrum 03/16/86 Tito vs Savage - MSG 04/22/86 Tito vs Savage (No DQ) - MSG 05/19/86 Tito vs Savage (Lumberjack) - MSG 06/14/86 Tito & Bruno vs Savage & Adonis - MSG 07/12/86 Tito & Bruno vs Savage & Adonis (Cage) - MSG Things are blown off in Boston before they even start in New York, and the blow off in Boston is only a day after the singles feud starts in Philly. Neither Boston nor Philly get the tag matches with Bruno. Instead, the Hogan-Savage feud in Boston mophs via a tag match into the Savage-Steele feud. I'd love to see how they mapped this all out. In the middle of his feud in Boston with Tito, Savage in New York is feuding with Hogan. In the middle of his feud with Tito in NY, he's feuding with Hogan in Boston. They must have had a great chart of all this stuff. Crockett did the same stuff. John

I have a feeling that the 3-disk Savage will be okay as well. I think they want to make $$$, and Savage will likely sell. Match selection will be intesting, but I suspect that for a lot of it they'll use the old CHV as a starting point. And there's a lot of good Savage on those sets. Yeah... it's too bad they didn't put on the one earlier in the year. It's pretty damn hot even if short. Still working on it. Just started the Hogan-a-thon section this past weekend. Had not thought of watching Hogan-Bundy, though probably should since it was a Big Match. And then look at their SNME matches... I think they had two. There's a Hogan-Savage from MLG that I need to watch, the Philly Hogan-Orndorff cage match, and then it's Hogan vs Race time. I really need to figure out the best Hogan-DiBiase matches. DM.com has both the MSG pre-cage match between Hogan and Bossman along with about 6:30 of their Boston cage match (DVDVR had the MSG cage, while the SNME cage is the famous one and out there through I don't think I've hit that matches either). Lots of fun stuff to watch. At some point I need to wallow in all the bad tag team work. That was some of the most painful stuff on the original set. Even the "good" stuff like Busters vs Rockers that I've watched since then is disappointing when you're use to MX vs Rockers and Fans, and even stuff like Garvin & Windham vs Ivan & Murdoch is really good. So I keep looking for good stuff. Anytime someone wants to point out some 80s WWF worth watching/tracking down, I'm willing to give it a look see. What's fun about it is that it's not like you're looking for the Missing Great Jumbo Tsutura Matches. You're looking just for some solid wrestling that might have gotten forgotten. I really enjoyed Hogan & Piper vs Orndorff & Race at MSG. It's not a great match. But it's decently worked. Hogan & Piper work a good "uneasy partners" storyline that one wishes they went deeper with from there into the following year. We got a FIP section that was perfectly okay for a short match. Perfectly watchable. I'd rather watch Backlund vs Valentine if you're asking me about great work. But stuff like that tag, or Tito & Bruno vs Savage & Adonis in the cage... I don't mind seeing that either. Entertaining spectacles. John

No one "invented" that. It's common in *all* forms of sports and entertainment. It's been a part of wrestling forever. Gotch fans thought wrestling sucked after him. Lewis fans throught it sucked after his day. Go to Wrestling Classics or Kayfabe Memories and it's all over the place. I suspect I'm a "Class of 95er". Though I tend to enjoy a lot of stuff from before the time I started watching in 1986. John

My guess at the time was that the focus was on expanding all over the country, rather than being New York centric. Hogan wasn't really looked at as someone to pop a big crowd in New York, but a tool to build up largely dead old territories (LA, SF, Det, CLE, etc) and break into existing territories (AWA and STL being the most succesful). I think Vince wisely realized that if he added Chicago to his existing media base (NY, Philly, Boston, DC/Bal) and the open cities there for him to take (all of California, DET), then the WWF was "wrestling" to the majority of the media... and frankly probably the majority of the country if you start adding up population. He could target other territories in a variety of ways. Running Shea would have been a short term pop. Vince seemed to be looking a bit more long term. John

I'm actually taking a step back - trying to figure out how you would book things from a pre-Starcade 1989 standpoint. It appears that as Sting goes over Flair there, that the plan was getting set to do Sting-Flair at the 2/90 WW *and* for Sting to win the belt. They just go right out and turn Flair and the Horsemen in early 1990. I assume Loss is reading the WONs from that period... was it a spur of a moment thing, or the plan? If you take a step back and the plan is to *not* do Flair-Sting at WW, that means: * Flair-Luger * Sting doesn't get injured Reality check: Sting only got injured because they did that stupid ass angle with the cage after the Horsemen turned on Sting. That lets one leave Luger heel, and he was at the time a pretty decent heel. It lets one leave Flair face for his feud with Luger, and after dropping the title to Luger chasing him for "Number 7". And Luger holding him off, thanks in the end to some help from the New Horsemen. What do you do with Sting while Flair-Luger is going on? Not sure. You don't want to burn Arn's "turn on Flair" heat off by having Sting kick his ass all over the country. So you have to find some other member of the Horsemen to be of the semi-stature of Sting, and for lack of a better option, have them battle over a title Sting hadn't won up to that point: the US Title. Barry wasn't back until a later in 1990, so he doesn't fit. I like Pillman, but he isn't at that level. I think Sid would be a Really Bad Idea. Drawning a blank here. Anyway, they have a natural reason for Flair to snap at some point in 1991 on Sting: He wants "Number 7" to tie Harley. And he got "cheated" out of it against Luger. Flair's desperate for it... it's his Legacy... and he snaps off on Sting to get it. By 1991, they wouldn't have run a full blown Flair-Sting feud since 1988. About the right time for it. John

To Loss's point, I'm not sure what they could have done at that point. It seems like it was clear that Flair was going to drop the title to Sting, and to a degree it seemed like Flair was okay with it. I haven't re-read the 1990 WON's in the long time, but in the back of my mind it seemed like Sting was going to win it at the 2/90 PPV. He won it so quickly coming back at a time when they could have easily worked a "chase" storyline with Sting winning it at Starcade. Flair also refused to drop the title to Lex, which was 3/90 in Chicago if I recall correctly, and the Saint Ric version of it is that it would blow the Flair-Sting big match when Sting was ready to comeback. Looking back... Flair-Sting hadn't been played up since the early 1988 time frame. Flair-Luger hadn't been played up since the second half of 1988. Both were touched on at Starcade 1989. I tend to agree that perhaps a plan of Luger winning the belt at the 2/90 PPV, putting Flair on the "chase" with perhaps a blow off in a Cage Match at the Bash in July to end their feud. That then flips eventually to Sting-Luger climaxing at Starcade, with Flair-Sting being left on deck for 1991. 02/06/90 Clash 10 02/25/90 WrestleWar 05/19/90 Capital Combat 06/13/90 Clash 11 07/07/90 Bash 09/05/90 Clash 12 10/27/90 Havoc 11/20/90 Clash 13 12/16/90 Starcade How you fill it out... not entirely sure other than Flair-Luger at WW and the Bash, and Lex-Sting at Starcade. To max Starcade, it might be best to have it the first singles match between the two of the year. I would have gotten a Wargames in there somewhere, but if you get too much of a Team Lex, then you're going Horsemen all over again. Then again, having the Horsemen turn on Flair and Sting does make for an interesting storyline. The question then becomes who in addition to Arn and Lex makes up the New Horsemen, and who makes up the Flair & Stinger group... and whether one wants to get the Steiner involved in any of that, or off working their own angles. Also, what type of "filler" can one run at Lex in addition to Flair and Sting since a two feud year over the World Title is stretching things. Flair has the natural feud with Arn after he's done with the World Title, which can be blown off at Starcade as well... toss them in a cage and let them have a bloodbath. Sure, it's Flair's fourth cage match of the year (blow off with Lex, Wargames and blow off with Arn), but it keeps him engaged at the top of the cards which is a must given what you're paying him. Could any of this have drawn? We tend to forget that wrestling was really declining at this point. We could come up with all sorts of good ways to book and dig up old Bowdren the Booker stuff to try to make good storylines. But it was really a declining phase. Flair had been around for ages. The "fresh" part of Ric in this period was that he was a "face" for the first time nationally. But that didn't draw all that greatly against Funk. It did okay, some positives... but nothing off the charts or sustained. Would he draw better as a face against Lex? Would Sting-Lex draw? I'm not sold. John

My good... those are worse punches than I thought. John

Strange debate where everyone seems to be talking past one another. I would feel more comfortable if it was someone other than Eric trying to engage in a discussion with Matt on this topic. WCW in the Nitro Era was one of the great cesspools of partying and dope taking that the business has seen. One can take a look at some of Eric's glassy eyes, slurred speech promos from the era to draw a pretty reasonable conclusion that he wasn't the Virgin Mary. John

Better Steiner: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MuRQiJsNSks John

We need to remember that Ric had more than a full year left on his contract. It *wasn't* expiring. Ric saw the handwriting on Herd's wall: Ric would be getting moved down on the cards. It was entirely possible that when his contract would come time to expire that he would no longer be in position to leverage a good deal. And at the time, he had a helluva $$$ deal with WCW. So he was looking for an early *extension* before he risked moving down the card. That is what Herd was "lowballing" him on. Ric tried to play hardball by holding up dropping the title at the Bash to Luger, which was the original plan, in turn for getting an extension. Herd didn't go for it, and tried to move up Flair dropping the title to Barry at a taping *before* the Bash, which the pretty clear plan for Barry to inturn drop it to Luger at the Bash. Ric didn't like that either. Hence Ric got "fired", and all that other bullshit over whether he was or wasn't fired. But in the end, Ric basically wanted the biggest payday in history up to that point to drop the title - a multi-year extension of a contract that already had a year left on it. I'd have to go back to look through the WON again from back then to see how much per year he wanted on the extension (and how much he turned down for the "lowball" offer), but I think it would be up over a million to drop the title. Ric did have the contractual right to say "no". He had used it before, back in March 1990, to say no to dropping the title to Lex at a Chicago house show. And Herd clearly was a prick. But Ric's not a saint in this. He was holding the company up for a big contract extension even while having a year left on his contract. John

Scott has problems getting the Flair-Herd straight when trying to correct someone who can't get the Flair-Herd story straight: http://www.rspwfaq.com/2009/01/flair-putting-people-over John

There are probably a few threads around. I think there's one on Classics in the WON forum. It's been talked about. John

Clearly not. John

And in a little more than two years, it will be the 10th anniversary of the death of WCW. Yikes. John