jdw

Finally got the book. Great read, and makes KS's review even more enjoyable. Thanks for saving the review and making it available, Bix. John

Is this true? Stupak was a Radazzo socko? Or is this a joke that's popped up? John

Note - I'm not knocking Rock. He mad, and is making, a great decision in going hollywood and dropping wrestling. The knock is aimed at Martin. Shit... Knoxville was in one of Rock's movies. John

I'm thinking Knoxvillie's career in Hollywood was going better than Rock's right up until the Game Plan. Hard to credit Rock for Get Smart - that was a Carell movie more. Knoxville's two Jackass movies were also made on shoe strings and extremely profitable. Not saying Knoxville is making more per movie than Rock is. But Game Plan really was a career turn around movie for Rock. Knoxville can do another Jackass and it will pull in $60-70M, which Rock didn't do on his own until making a Disney movie. John

"On today's wrestlers' priorities: Listening to some young wrestlers talk amongst themselves recently, I was shocked to hear of the variety of subject matters they so "profoundly" discussed. IPods, IPhones, "I" period but nothing about wrestling, counters, submissions, paying their taxes, saving their money, hiring a financial planner, preparing for their future....you get the picture." I do. Were the guys in Mid South and Crockett talking about wrestling, counters, submissions, paying their taxes, saving their money, hiring a financial planner, preparing for their future... ... or where they talking about pussy, coke, pussy, beer, pussy, whiskey, pussy, pain killers, pussy, steroids, pussy, cars, pussy, clothes, pussy, what a cocksucker the booker is, pussy, what a tightwad the promoter is, pussy, what a jerkoff another wrestler is, pussy, what pains in the ass their wives are, pussy, needing to go get some penicillin for the clap they picked up from that ring rat, and pussy. Ross would have us believe in a noble era of heroic wrestlers dedicated to their art. It's a myth. The only question is whether Jimbo knows he's spinning a myth, or if he's lost in the punch at this point. John, who enjoyed seeing Jimbo on the OU sidelines watching the Longhorns stomp a mudhole in the Sooners... "Damn you Colt McCoy... damn you to hell!!!"

They had the goods at the begining of 2000 when the came up with the XFL idea. Really, all they needed was their own large tape library to get it launched at that point. John

I had forgotten just what an idiot SKeith is. This thing needs a multi-part review akin to that famous one on Bret Hart's book (Bix had linked to it a while back). John

I assume the business model comes down to: Ric Flair Fans are too stupid to find the DVDs online for less/free. John

Christ... I think I've been preaching this almost all decade. The problem is that Vince is chasing it at a lower ebb for pro wrestling. Not that it's not still a good/needed thing. But he should have done it instead of the XFL way back when. John

The Brain is great in it. John

Doesn't need to have financial smarts for that. He just went through a divorce, and she did well. Either Ric or his lawyers probably know how to play the game *if* there isn't a pre-nup. John

Known fact? Were not his various wives at Mania and his send off the next night? That went to hell fast. I do wonder if he's asking out of his contract with the WWE to reduce his income for the divorce. It was a contract signed while they were together. Get out of it, work outside the WWE while the divorce is pending, slide back into the WWE after his finalized. John

My Favorite Match Ever! This has Frank-style formatting... I'm not sure why I did it that way back in 2003. -------------------------------------- "Don't give them anything and beat them up." -Bruiser Brody as quoted by Dave Meltzer * * * * * * 11/26/82 - Real World Tag League: Stan Hansen & Bruiser Brody vs. Rick Steamboat & Jay Youngblood jdw Member #622 posted 12-01-2003 05:43 PM Steamboat & Youngblood come out first to a good pop and more than a few "Rickey!" squeels from the females in the crowd. Hansen & Brody come out to the nifty splice job they use to do combining Hansen's theme with Brody's Zepp music. Big pop, of course, and a noticable buzz from the crowd. Our ref is Joe Haguchi, who gets a little "go away" shove from Brody when trying to do the usual 'ref checking the wrestlers' pre-match spot. Joe gives up trying to check Brody and moves on with trying to get the match started. Brody starts off with Steamboat, and quickly makes Steamboat eat a shoulder tackle. They work a headlock briefly, with Brody taking it over to the mat, and Steamboat countering to an even briefer head scissors that Brody pops out of instantly. Brody seems to have had enough of this, kicks Steamboat in the gut, grabs a front facelock, and tags in Hansen. Hansen comes in a clubbering - a forearm clubber to the back, a nice elbow smash to the head, a chop, a snap mare, and his patented elbow-thrust-into-the-chinlock spot. Hansen works the chinlock hard, shaking Steamboat around like he's cinching it in tight. Steamboat sells it well before reversing it into a hammerlock. Hansen fights it, but rather than popping out of it like Brody, allows Steamboat to work it up to a vertical base and twist the arm around while tagging in Youngblood. Yes, Stan is letting the faces get some offense in. Jay comes off the top with a flying axe handle, then twists the arm around before Hansen cuts him off with the eye rake. Hansen plants Jay with a big slam, then adds in a nice pop to the head with his knee before tagging in Brody. Hansen whips Jay into the ropes and Brody walks over to give him a back elbow as Jay runs into him. Another whip into the ropes sees Jay eat a nice dropkick by Brody. The big fella follows with more offense, hitting a backbreaker which Jay kicks out of surprisingly quick. Brody cinches in another front facelock and heads over to tag in Stan. Stan and Brody combine for a double-team northern chop from Brody. Youngblood tries to "fire up" and show his "fighting spirit" by firing a chop at Brody, but the big fella stares at Jay for a moment like an elephant buzzed by a flea before Stan makes the save by snap maring Jay over into the reverse chinlock. Stan and Jay work the hold before Stan lets Jay work it up to a vertical base and backinto the corner to tag Steamboat. Tied up with Jay, Stan's left himself open for Steamboat's "hot tag". Rick comes in with chops to the chest and head, which Stan sells well, before Steamboat & Youngblood team up for their "lift kick" double team move. Stan bumps for it, and eats a pin attempts by Steamboat. Steamboat and Hansen work the headlock takeover into the head scissors sequence before Stan finally cuts off the faces' offensive run. Stan hits one of his nice elbow drops to Rick's chest before tagging in Brody. Brody nicely hits his big running high kick into the corner, or more accurately, right into Rick's face. Brody follows by pitching Steamboat outside the ring, but Rick has other ideas. As Brody is climbing out the otherside of the ring, the cat-quick Steamboat hops up on the apron and comes off with a flying chop to the head as Brody wanders around the corner of the floor. A nice babyface payback spot for the boot to the head. Brody has other ideas as he no sells it, grabs Steamboat's head, no sells Steamboats punches to the gut, and bounces Steamboat's head off a chair. Brody then grabs the chair and pops Rick on the top of the head before Rick can even get his hands up to protects himself pre-FMW style. Rick doesn't seem really pleased with this, as he goes to grab the chair as Brody discards it and looks for some babyface payback. Brody seems not to want to reciporcate as he grabs onto the chair as Steamboat holds it, forcing Youngblood to come over to help out. Brody shrugs off that in a fashion that might be embarassing to the faces had not Hansen jumped in to make the save by pulling Jay off of Brody. It's a bit like one elephant pulling a flea off the back off another elephant who hand't even noticed the flea was there. Brody and Steamboat struggle over the chair, and one gets the feeling that Brody sensed the annoying Steamboat wasn't going to quit until he got his payback spot in. Brody eats a chop, lets go of the chair, looks at Rick, gets his arms up well in advance of the chair, and lets Rick hit over the 'head'. Brody sells the damage by *stalking* the chair weilding Steamboat, and shrugs off a chair to the gut, simply grabbing Steamboat and posting him. Steamboat bounces off, Brody stalks him right into where Youngblood had been left by Hansen. Jay takes the opportunity to chop Brody a bit, perhaps leading to a face two-on-one comeback. No worries there as Brody 'makes his own save' by no selling Jay's offense, pitching him aside, and bouncing Steamboat onto the apron and into the ring. Oh boy. Somehow when Steamboat gets back in the ring, Hansen is the 'legal man' while Brody wanders aimlessly back to his own corner. This is a lucky break for the faces as Hansen quickly eats a flying axe from the cat quick Steamboat and bumps for it. Hansen has now been in three times, and each of the times he's let the faces roll off some 'babyface comeback' offense on him. Brody's been in three times, hasn't taken a bump, hasn't sold a thing, and has several times flat out no-sold. Hansen eats several chops from Steamboat, then tries to comeback with a running kick to the gut. Steamboat catches the leg and single legs Hansen down to the mat before hitting a thrust chop to the throat. Hansen shows he's not only willing to let the faces make "babyfaces comebacks" when he's in, but he's also willing to let his own 'monster heel comebacks' be cut of by the faces. Go figure. Steamboat's a house of fire, which is really heating up the crowd. He pops Hansen with another chop, and then runs over and nails Brody with one for good measure. Brody sells it by... well... his hair flys around a bit, he droops down across the top ropes for about two seconds, and then stands right back up as if nothing happened. Luckily Steamboat had already run back to chop Hansen and shoot him into the face corner where Hansen could eat a chop from Youngblood. Jay gets the hot tag and Hansen eats a double team dropkick-chop combo. Stan's had enough of that, fires back on Jay, and nails his own excellent drop kick that plants Jay. Hansen follows with a nice vertical suplex and a big elbow drop to the back of Jay's head. Since the heels are back on offense, it's safe for Stan to tag in Brody, who comes in with a nice flying axe-handle off the top. Brody follows with a running high kick, which Jay seems to not want to take the full force off, turning away as it's hit. Brody puts Jay in the 'tree of woe', gets in a few stomps, and tags in Hansen as Joe Haguchi drags him off. Brody's streak of not bumping or selling in the match continues, as the faces are now 0-for-4 against the big fella, even when chairs and double teams are involved. Steamboat unhooks Jay from the tree of woe just in time for Hansen to grab him and put Jay in a bearhug. The five minute call is made. Jay tries to get out by boxing Hansen's ears, which Hansen sells a bit but spins around to his own corner so Brody can tag in. For the first time in the four trips he's made into the ring, Hansen doesn't let the faces have anything. Brody puts Jay back in the bearhug, and even gets a nearfall off of it. Jay tries to get out by raking the eye, but Brody pulls Jay over into the corner to tag in Hansen. The streak lives. Hansen's back in with the clubbers, a high back bodydrop and a backbreaker before tagging out to Brody. Stan seems to be learning from Brody as the match goes along. Then again, this is face-in-peril on Jay so the heels should be running some offense here. Brody comes in with a snapmare followed by his nice legdrop for a heated nearfall. Give Brody some credit for making a suprised 'that should have pinned him' look after Jay kicked out. Brody followed by shooting Jay into the ropes and going down real early for a back bodydrop that Jay meets with and axehandle and loads of chops. Steamboat gets the hot tag, and the crowd is into it for the face comeback. Rick's a house of fire with chops left and right. After doing six or so in the corner, he shoots Brody into the ropes and hits a punch to the gut on the rebound. Brody sells this by grabbing his stomach and wandering over to tag in Hansen to take the rest of the babyface comeback. By the time Hansen is in, Brody's stomach appears to be fine as he climbs out through the ropes, brushes back his hair and stands in the corner on the apron. Good to know he's okay after Jay and Rick took it to him in a babyface comeback. In the meantime, Hansen is taking the rest of Steamboat's firey hot tag babyface comeback that the crowd is eating up. Chops-o-plently before Hansen reverse a whips into the corner and hits a nice running jumping knee. Rick sells it well, and Hansen follows with one of those nice knee rakes of his. Against the ropes, Hansen and Steamboat go toe-to-toe with Hansen going down with a bump on Rick's desperation kick. Hansen comes back to smother Steamboat and tags Brody in. Brody's in with the stomps and the standing kneedrop for a nearfall. Rick tries a comeback, but Brody cuts it off with punches and thrusts. Brody follows by going for an axehandle... well... he sets for it by locking his hands above his head while Steamboat is draped across the ropes with his back to Brody, stands waiting for Rick to sort of turn around, wanders in slowly making sure Rick can see him, and lets Steamboat nail him with a back elbow. This is common to Brody matches. His transitions are usually pretty horrific as he often would make it clear to everyone in the building "I'm *letting* him comeback on me". Either that or Brody had the worst timing on transitions around. Even his earlier back bodydrop counter spot saw him go down earlier than just about any heel would. Steamboat fires away with chops, and in contrast with Brody, Rick times his back bodydrop transition counter for Brody nicely. Brody quickly wanders off to make the tag with Hansen, not even bothering to drag Steamboat over there to "cut off the ring". It's also good to see that Steamboat's chops aren't affecting Brody as he seems to be a-o-kay by the time he's back out on the apron. Thanks to Brody's 'catcher's indifference' tag work, Hansen has to come across quickly to keep Rick from making the hot tag. Actually he didn't, since Steamboat was enough a pro to know it wasn't his turn to go on offense so despite being in his own team's 'half' of the ring and 'unguarded', he wasn't making a dramatic effort to crawl off to the corner. Then again, Hansen was enough of a pro to see the opening Brody's indifference made and made the effort to "cut off" Steamboat anyway. You know, it's a pleasure to watch Rick and Hansen work, and it makes you want to see a nice 15 minute singles match between them from Mid-Atlantic where Brody and the 'Japanese cameras' excuse wasn't around to drag the two down. Hansen always showed against Backlund and Inoki that he knew exactly how to work with super over babyface infront of their 'home crowd'. Back to the match. Hansen is dropping the heavy elbows on Steamboat, but misses one before stooging for Rick crawling between his knees to make the hot tag. Jay comes in a house of fire, chopping Stan all over the place and even chopping Brody on the apron. While Stan is bumping his rear off in ring for Jay's chops, Brody 'almost goes down' on the apron. Stan eats more chops and a dropkick that Stan bumps for before Steamboat comes in and goes toe-to-toe with Hansen in a battle of chops to the head. A very noticable "Rickey! Rickey! Rickey!" chant comes from the Japanese crowd. Noticable because it's very *loud* in its emphatic support of the faces. Rick actually is "winning" the toe-to-toe headchopping spot, backing up big Stan. The only problem is that he backs Stan up into Stan's corner where a 'fresh' Brody tags in. Well, Brody's been fresh within seconds of standing out on the apron throughout the match, to the point that you wonder if there's some magic poweder in the corner that heals Brody's wounds. Anyway... Brody comes in with a running high kick, but Rick comes back with the chops and a dropkick. Brody takes his first bump of the match for the dropkick, if you can call it a bump. He turns away from the dropkick, taking the dropkick sort of on his right shoulder, then sort of spinning around from the dropkick, and then sort of going down for it landing on his hip and butt rather than back. It's possible that Brody was gamely working this match with a bad back given his noticable lack of bumping compared to not just the babyfaces but also his own partner. Then again, that back must have still been hurting him a few months later in St. Louis when he wouldn't bump much at all for Flair when having to fill "sixty minutes" of space, and when bumping tended to do it in that same odd style that lessened the dramatic impact of his opponents' moves. Anyway... Rick crawls over to cover Brody, but Brody has a streak of Bob Backlund in him and only takes a one count before kicking out. Double team axehandle, and Brody takes his second bump of the match, in that same odd "land on my hip" fashion rather than coming anywhere close to taking a back bump. Yeah, he's got to have a bad back here. If not, this would probably be the same as Hogan's 'bad bumps' showing up Rock at Wrestlemania 2002, since these sure aren't making Jay and Rick look so hot. Anyway... The faces try to follow with one of their hottest doubleteams - Rick's slingshot of Jay into the ring for a press. This is too much to ask for as Brody twists around and gets his knees up to block it. The move looks very bad, and it's not too clear on who blew it. Jay did not appear to be coming into the ring in a direction headed to a "block", instead seemingly aimed towards the upper chest. Brody did have to twist around to get his knees up in a position to "catch" Youngblood with them. It's possible that it was suppose to be "countered" and that Brody was a little out of position on the match and had to adjust for it. Youngblood did sell the counter after Brody got the legs up, theatrically then going to the mat. There is a slight problem with this - Rick actually dragged Brody a bit before the slingshot to put him into "proper position" for the move. Also, as Jay was initially selling on the mat you can clearly see him looking over at Brody almost like he's trying to get a clue on what Brody was going to do next. At best, it was just an ugly looking spot. Jay was often sloppy in the ring, and may have just been off here. At worst, Brody called an audible as Jay was trying to hit the move, not wanting to let the faces get off a "hot move". Brody's track record for calling audibles on opponents offense is the worst in the modern history of pro wrestling. Jay wasn't flying in the direction he would normally flying when having one of his presses counters (he'd tended to aim them a bit more towards the waist so the heel didn't have to come up too far). Watch the match and make your own call. It's 50/50 on how one wants to see it. Brody gets up, wanders off to his corner, tags in Hansen, climbs through the ropes, Steamboat runs across and club him causing Brody to hop off the apron to the floor, where Brody wanders around a bit. Rick keeps his attention on Brody, which given what follows sure looks like Brody was suppose to grab Rick's legs and drag him out of the ring. Instead Rick has to keep him back turned from what happens in the ring - Hansen coming in to hit the lariat on Jay. Down goes Jay, and in a wide shot you see Steamboat having to climb though the ropes to get to the wandering around 'asleep at the wheel' Brody so he 'couldn't save' Jay from being pinned by the move Hansen just hit behind his back. Hansen takes his time covering, and it's a 1-2-3 at 10:37. Rick dives in under the ropes long after the three count is made, pretty much looking like an idiot for not having a clue that Hansen was chopping off Jay's head. In reality it was Brody who just wandered off and Steamboat had to lamely try to find an excuse for not being able to save Jay from the finish. * * * * * * When I see quotes like this: "Basics on [Jumbo's] rep. First off, if he didn't consider you at his level, he wouldn't do anything for you. I saw that on numerous occasions with good working but mid-level Americans so I think that's valid, and that was even in his hot period. If he wasn't in the mood, you couldn't get a match out of him. It was more frustrating to people because he was so talented than if he was a slug." -Dave Meltzer and: "Everyone respected that when [Jumbo] wanted to go, he could go with anyone, but his reputation was that he was a lazy worker unless there were TV cameras. I got that from Brody (who always complained that I overrated him)..." -Dave Meltzer The one thought that popped into my mind was, "What about Brody's work?" The above match isn't one against "good working but mid-level Americans". Steamboat & Youngblood were the top babyface team in the top tag team territory in the country. Steamboat had been a main eventer for years by that point, including main events in Japan against Flair and Jumbo Tsuruta. Was he as big of a star as Brody in Japan? Of course not. But he was a bigger level star than Foley was in 1991 when Mick was nothing more than a prelimer. He was a bigger star at the time than Richard Slinger, Johnny Smith, Tom Zenk, Dan Kroffat, Doug Furnas or whatever All Japan mid-card or prelim gaijin from 1989-1992 we want to roll out. This is a top American star and tag team that Brody is treating like dung in the ring. Yet one watches this match and isn't surprised with what Brody did if one has watched enough of his work in Japan. This is typical of his work against gaijin who were at a level lower than the Funks or Harley Race. Even major stars like Steamboat got nothing from him, and even when transitioning them briefly onto offense, he'd pull out his wink-wink methods to make the opponent look weak. This was typical of his pairing with Hansen, where if there was any dirty work to be done making the opponents look good, Hansen was the one willing to do it, while Brody didn't give them anything and beat them up. Of course Brody had the excuse at the time, and has continued to have it spun since his death, that it was okay for him to give people below him nothing because of his high spot and his need to protect his position. One can watch Jumbo's singles match earlier that year with Steamboat to see how giving Jumbo was with him. Or better still, watch another high ranked American superstar in Japan work with Steamboat in a singles match on the same tour - the 12/07/82 Harley Race vs. Rick Steamboat match. Race gives Steamboat big chunks of the match, sells for him, and makes him look good while also getting in a big pile of his own spots out of the Harley Race Big Book Of Wrestling Moves. Then contrast them with what Brody was willing to give Steamboat. "[brody] was the best pure brawler and arguable the top all-around worker of the '80s..." -The Wrestling Observer' Top 100 Pro Wrestlers of All Time Setting aside the issue of Brody being arguably the most overrated worker of the past 25 years for another thread, there is the issue of applying a double standard. Brody gets a free pass on his selfish and lazy work because of his spot. Jumbo worked as The Man in All Japan, and worked in a fashion consistent with that spot. Whereas Ric Flair would beg off in the corner to TV "enhancement talent" like Italion Stalion, Jumbo would give a prelimer like Mick Foley exactly as much match time and offiense as he deserved against the top wrestler in the company. Jumbo should be praised for that, not have it used as yet another one of the trumped up excuses for rating his work down. John

Copy & Paste. I'm wondering if we can get Dave's Shill Of Doom with that? I mean... copying Paul's entire blog entry rather than linking to it? :/ John

What is 80s about Hulk Hogan playing cool heel? Hogan largely was playing Flair - leader of a heel group. He dropped the sex aspect that Flair had, but other than that was a big talking, cool heel who bitched out to faces (Savage, Piper, Sting, Lex, etc) until the Horsemen/NWO came in to make the save. WWF fans turning on Bob Backlund. Hogan got pushed down the throats in 1994. Did it worked? Not much in US Pro Wrestling was "working" relative to the 80s. On the other hand, Hogan vs Flair and Hogan vs Vader did better PPV business than Vader vs. Cactus, one of the rare definative "90s" match ups in the early-to-mid 90s in WCW where two pure 90s style wrestlers hooked up. It's pretty much impossible to point to a date in the early 90s and say, "There it is... it changed there and never went back." John

Except you're not making an arguement. You're making a claim, and failing to support it. What happened in January 1? Flair was champ. Hogan was champ. Flair wouldn't drop the title until July, and it was to a Sting that he'd been feuding with back to 1988. Hogan dropped the title to Warrior, who was half a Road Warrior's knock off and half and heir to Hogan's sterioded up top face. He was a main eventer in the WWF back to 1988. Of course Warrior and Sting failed, so the companies went back to Hogan and Flair in early 1991. WCW went to another wrestler of the 80's to replace Flair (Lex), who failed. Then another turn with Sting. One could try to call Ron Simmons a "wrestler of the 90s", but in reality he was pushed by Bill Watts to be his new Big Black Star, which was Bill's attempt to replicate the success he had with JYD and Butch Reed... in the early-to-mid-80s. There wasn't *anything* new about Watt's pushes and booking - he was pushing concepts from the 70s and 80s. So Simmons failed, and we finally got something somewhat "90s" - Vaders run in 1993. By the end of the year, the plan was to make Sid, a definative 80s-type wrestler, the new Franchise. Sid being Sid, that didn't happen. So they went to Flair, who inturn was used to put over Hogan and his long dynasty as the top star. The top stars, often opposite Hogan? Flair, Savage, Piper, Sting, Luger. Eventually got to Goldberg, which didn't last more than half a year before it was back to a Hogan-Flair feud on top. I walked throught the WWF before. Nothing happened in January 1, 1990 other than something in your mind. There were various efforts to have *younger* wrestler take over the top spots. It wasn't "New Style Wrestlers", but younger guys because there was the thought that Hogan and Flair couldn't go forever. Prior to Austin, there was a constant battle in Vince's mind of Going Back to Big Guys, it failing, him going to Smaller Guys (Bret & Shawn), that failing, and him Going Back to Big Guys. People love to point to Bret vs. Shawn on top at Mania in 1996. Of course they "main evented" Survior Series in 1992. Of course the truly most pushed match heading into the show was Savage & Warrior vs. Flair & Ramon because Vince didn't really have full faith in his move to Hart. And of course Bret vs. Shawn was to main event Mania 97. Except Vince didn't have full faith in it, and moved the title over to Sid to have Sid vs. Taker be the main event in a Battle of Big Guys. There just wasn't a seismic shift. 1991 01/30/91 Clash: Flair vs Steiner 02/24/91 WrestleWar: Horsemen vs Sting & Steiners & Pillman (Wargames) 05/19/91 SuperBrawl: Flair vs. Fujinami 06/14/91 Clash: Flair vs Eaton 07/14/91 Bash: Lex vs. Windham (originally Flair vs. Lex) 09/05/91 Clash: Arn & Larry Z vs Rick Steiner & Bill Kazmier (show a mess) 10/27/91 Havoc: Lex vs Simmons 11/19/91 Clash: Arn & Larry vs Steamer & Dustin / Sting vs Rude 12/29/91 Starcade: Sting wins Lethal Lottery to set up Sting vs Lex Most of the year looks like it could have come out of the 80s. 1994 is worse. Flair vs Sting, Flair vs Steamboat, Flair vs Hogan (three of them). One did have Vader up top in the mix opposite Flair early in the year and a bit against Sting. It pretty much was the exception to the rule. You're more likely to pinpoint things on a specific date to when Hogan beat Sheik for the WWF title than on 01/01/90. John

He was the anchor of WCW for more than half a decade, including their period of greatest success. In the WWF, their attendance went in the tank the moment he left in 1992. 80s star. He literally peaked on 4/1/90. He didn't draw as WWF Champ. The NWO would have died if Hogan wasn't the top star. The Outsiders weren't taking WCW through the roof. Nitro? The initial stars of it were Hogan, Flair, Savage... and there was that big moment of Lex jumping. Mix in Sting and Lex working a storyline where people were waiting for Lex to turn on him. John

WWF Champs 04/01/1990 Ultimate Warrior 80's star. Peaked the moment he got the belt. 01/19/1991 Sgt. Slaughter 80's star 03/24/1991 Hulk Hogan (3) 80's star 11/27/1991 Undertaker 90s star, but a pure blip on the radar here. He also was the last "great" 80s style cartoon character than Vince created. 12/03/1991 Hulk Hogan (4) That guy again. 01/19/1992 Ric Flair 04/05/1992 Randy Savage (2) 09/01/1992 Ric Flair (2) 80s stars 10/12/1992 Bret Hart 90s star 04/04/1993 Yokozuna Saying he's a 90s star would miss the point - he was a pure 80s style cartoon character. 04/04/1993 Hulk Hogan (5) That guy again. 06/13/1993 Yokozuna (2) See above. 03/20/1994 Bret Hart (2) See above. 11/23/1994 Bob Backlund (4) Can you get anymore 70s and 80s? 11/26/1994 Diesel A "star" in the 90s, but the "Diesel" character was pure 80s style WWF. Cartoon character that Vince turned face when he got popular. After that you get the periods of Bret and Shawn leading into Stone Cold. It's worth noting the Sid got two runs with the belt, and he was more 80s than anyone. Taker got another one transitioning the belt from Sid to Bret, and Taker was still in pure 80s cartoon mode at this point. So in the WWF, up through the dawn of the Attitude Era, 80s Wrestling initially dominated, and then kept poking its head up through the entire "Bret & Shawn" era. That's what Loss is talking about. WCW is worse. With the exception of Vader, who largely was a "We don't have anyone else" guy at the top, the company was utterly dominated at the top by 80s wrestlers or 80s style wrestlers. One might try to say Goldberg was 90s, but really it was the old Nikita Koloff type of push, along with others. "Nash", as opposed to "Diesel", was more of a 90s style character, but he also had barely a cup of coffee with the belt until after Hogan's run was done. I think Loss *underestimates* when then transition was. It actually would be easier to point to as 1998: Stone Cold, Rock, Foley who made WCW passe which eventually killed off the Hogan domination. Japan is a different beast, and really can't be linked to the US. John

I really don't get what the "switch" from 1989 to 1990 is all about. Is there anything different in those years? Or is it some later point. Loss pointed out Bret and Owen at some point as falling off. I'm not picking on him, here... and to a degree I get his final point. But Bret was a tag wrestler in the 80s. In the 90s, he actually was a credible World Champ and who had some moments of drawing in the main events in stretches. He was pretty relevant in the WWF right up to Montreal - his heel turn, run to the title, and final run with the belt were all pretty damn solid. Did he not adapt in WCW? By the time he got there, it was a zoo and pretty much everyone who had Eric's ear and some bits of power weren't going to do anything to help Bret at the expense of their own spots. So it's really hard to say "didn't adapt" from 12/97 to Goldberg's boot to the head. It was a shithole. Considering it was a shithole, he didn't do too bad. I'm recalling a title turn around with Luger that *at the time* was suprisingly okay given Luger was really a mess then. Then having to live through Russo's desire to relive Montreal over-and-over. I tend to think Owen adapted. He never was going to be a top star in the WWF given Vince and the WWF. Maybe with different people running the company, Owen could have been Rey before Rey way back in the late 80s. But it wasn't going to happen. Instead, he was going to be a role player. The company didn't want him to be as flashy as he'd been in the 80s. He adapted to those two things, played the role the company wanted, and worked how they wanted, and was pretty solid though not spectacular. He didn't adapt as a *great* "speaker" or "actor"... but he actually was pretty okay, and at times pretty good. He wasn't Stone Cold, or Rock, or Hogan, or Flair (if you're a Late 90s Flair fan). But he wasn't terrible. There were times where he was really strong, like Survivors 94 and other points in his feud with Bret. Of course all that stuff is later in the 90s. So... I don't get the point of what's being looked at. Yatsu was a good second banana in the mid-80s. But the late 80s, he was a fat, not terribly interested second banana who know he wasn't going above that level. Same shit in the 90s. There was nothing to adapt to - time already passed him by back in 1987 when Tenryu moved over opposite Jumbo. Fujinami... I tend to agree. But he also never was quite the same after the injury. He never had Choshu's charisma or fire, which let Riki get by all the way to 1997 opposite the rise of the Three Musketeers. One can toss it off as Choshu booking himself, but it's pretty obtuse is missing that Riki booked himself to put other people over in the end. One of the first people he put over was the returning Fujinami, which led to Fujinami getting the match with Flair at the Dome. It's more than Riki having the pencil - his charisma and fire was just enough to get by in the big matches, while Fujinami just didn't have "it". Jumbo of course adapted, obviously to the role of older top vet opposite The Kids. He was as good at is as anyone. Hansen adapted greatly. He did benefit from having younger, talented kids opposite him. But he picked up things to add to his game, picked up the pacing of his matches, and helped elevate the style. He was pretty fantastic through the end of 1993, with a few flashes after that. I think "age" more than "adapting" got him after that. I think if Hansen and the Babas were a little bit more on top of it, they would have seen the decline and come up with a style for Stan around 1994 and explained it in the press: Stan doesn't have the stamina of the Kids, so long 20-35 minute match empty his tank. Knowing this, Stan presses the action right from the start, throwing the bombs, and looks to take his opponent out before endurance is a factor. Book him into 10-15 minute matches with the top guys rather than the long ones. By bombs, I don't mean opening with a power bomb. Just chop off the time killing, go straight to the work to the finish, and give the fans a short, exiting match. If they hadn't come up with it by 1994, they should have introduced it with his title win over Kawada - a short, violent, intense match with the two kicking the shit out of each other until Stan wins in 12 minutes. It would have opened the door not just for Stan to work that type of match, but others. Taue: "I don't have the stamina of Kobashi, so I've got to rock him early and work to finish him off before I tire." Kawada: "Nothing else works against Misawa, so let me try this..." Etc. I'm rambling, of course. Anyway... topic needs some definition. John

Probably poor choice of words. WWF vs. JCP wasn't a truly competitive battle. JCP did "good" in some markets, some of which they shared with the WWF (Philly, Baltimore, Chicago) and some of which were their own (Mid-Atlantic, GA). In some other markets shared with the WWF, JCP did okay in the first show, but couldn't sustain things. Here's the top 50 Metros in the country on the 1990 Census. Of course JCP was dead by 1990, but the data is closer to the "war" years of 1986-87 than the 1980 data. My question would be to classify the markets as: * WWF Only * JCP Only * WWF Dominant * JCP Dominant * WWF Town / JCP Okay * JCP Town / WWF Okay * Competative: X Winning (identify the promotion leading) * Neither Promotion Succesful By WWF Only, I don't mean that JCP *never* ran there. But take Boston or NY as examples. JCP ran a few shows. In Boston, the first one did okay. In NY, JCP left the town quickly and it would be WCW that came back. I don't recall JCP sustaining much in Boston after that first good show. They had to have run again, but my recollection is that they "blew" the positives of the first show due to poor planning on the follow up. In the other direction, the WWF tried a time or two in the heart of Mid-Atlantic, got their clocks cleaned, and then largely ignored it. Those markets were largely JCP Only. Philly was competative, but over the course of the battle, the WWF stayed ahead. There might be a show or two where JCP "won", but my recollection is that overall, the WWF took more than they lost. Etc. I think what one will find in running through this is that "compatative" is pretty relative, and very narrow. JCP was competative in a few cities where they ran regularly, and of course in the markets in their home base where the WWF didn't run. I think then what one will additionally find is that the markets that were JCP Only or JCP Dominant are small fry compared to the ones the WWF did. You have to get down to #11 for a JCP town. #28 for the next one. One gets down to home bases like Greensboro (#45) and Richmond (#49), and you have WWF Towns like Dayton that are right there. Now I agree that doesn't mean that Dayton drew more fans than Greensboro. But one tends to end up with two WWF cities vs a JCP city, and those two WWF cities probably drew more in a year. Except that it's not 2 vs. 1. It's probably 3 vs 1 or 4 vs 1 when you get to those Only and Dominant markets. One last thing to remember: For the most part, JCP has one Touring Crew/Card. The WWF had 3. So one will find the illusion of a JCP card and a WWF card in LA both drawing 5,000, or 6,000 vs 4,500 and it looks sort of competative. Really it wasn't. Hogan would come in the next month or the one after that and pop 10K+. And bad JCP shows would be in the 3,000 range. Over the course of the "battle" between the two in Los Angeles in 1986-87, JCP didn't draw close to the same average. Anyway, here's the list if someone wants to give it a go: 18,087,251 New York 14,531,529 Los Angeles 8,065,633 Chicago 6,253,311 SanFran/Oak/San Jose 5,899,345 Chicago 4,665,236 Detroit 4,171,643 Boston 3,923,574 DC 3,885,415 Dallas 3,711,043 Houston 3,192,582 Miami 2,833,511 Atlanta 2,759,823 Cleveland 2,559,164 Seattle 2,498,016 San Diego 2,464,124 Minneapolis / St. Paul 2,444,099 St. Louis 2,382,172 Baltimore 2,242,798 Pittsburgh 2,122,101 Phoenix 2,067,959 Tampa / St. Pete 1,848,319 Denver 1,744,124 Cincy 1,607,183 MIL 1,566,280 KC 1,481,102 Sacremento 1,477,895 Portland 1,396,107 Norfolk 1,377,419 Columbus 1,302,099 San Antonio 1,249,822 Indy 1,238,816 New Orleans 1,189,288 Buffalo 1,162,093 Charlotte 1,141,510 Providence 1,085,837 Hartford 1,072,748 Orlando 1,072,227 Salt Lake City 1,002,410 Rochester 985,026 Nashville 981,747 Memphis 958,839 OK City 952,662 Louisville 951,270 Dayton 942,091 Greensboro 907,810 Birmingham 906,727 Jacksonville 874,304 Albany 865,640 Richmond 863,518 West Palm Beach Last Add - I rooted for JCP in those days. I'd go to every JCP and WCW card if I was free. I tended to be selective on the WWF. Even in hindsight thinking back, I'd still rather go to the JCP cards than the WWF ones. But... I went to a lot of cards at the Forum where the crowds were pretty painful. You're rooting for this promotion... you want it to do well... and you really could see that there were problems. John

Vince was at his best as a solo man in the booth in MSG in the 70s and early 80s. I would be interested to watch some of the TV tapings (full shows) from the same era when he worked solo, since they're really two different things in calling squashes and doing interviews compared to calling the big house show matches. I thought he was one of the best of the era that I've listened to. Listen to him call the 5/80 Backlund vs. Patera, 9/81 Backlund vs Muraco and 1/82 Backlund vs. Adonios. He's just fantastic in getting over both wrestlers, what they're doing, what they're strengths are, and how the match is unfolding. He does a strong job of getting across the drama, and also is more than willing to *not* talk rather than feeling like he has to fill every second of a match with *his* voice. Which is really a lost art. John

The more I watch Crockett with Tony in 1986, the more it strikes me how shitty Tony was and how good David was relative to him. We just thought Tony was "professional" and sounded like he knew what he was talking about, while David was going fanboy on it. But if you listen to what they're saying, David is actually talking about the match in better detail, while Tony is talking Big Picture Fluff since he couldn't call a match in detail if his life depended on it. In a sense, Tony came into matches with his handful of Talking Points & Storyline that he was comfortable talking about, and had a tough time getting past that. David had that stuff, but could actually call the match. David was annoying as all fuck. But in a sense he had fanboy enthusiasm for it, while calling it. Tony really wasn't a fanboy of the "wrestling" - he was just an announcer, and it was the gig he did, and he enjoyed being somewhat famous doing it. He was a fan of the interviews... you could see that, but you could also see it from David. I'm not saying David was Lance Russell. But at this point I'd take him over Gorilla. You just don't get a great sense that Monsoon enjoyed what he was calling all that much. That even when he's roll out a "classic" comment about the match, it was usually around the same time he'd be talking about how the two had been going at it like this for 20 minutes... about 9 minutes into the match infront of this sold out arena that had a mostly empty second deck. The "classic" comment was just a spot he'd toss out. There was the sense that buried beneath it that he felt everything was better in his day, but he was getting paid real good money (and ego fucking) to be one of the voices of the WWF. With David, you really got that he enjoyed the wrestling, the interviews, the hanging out in bars with the boys. That wrestling in all ways was something that he was hot for. John

I tend to think that Lord Al rules when one is in the mood for good campy fun. I suspect that if I rewatch these matches in 2018, I'll laugh at what a goofball Al is. Same as the Dick & Kal Show was brutal to watch when first checking out good Spectrum matches, once you get use to their awfulness, you kind of enjoy it on rewatch. I'm at the point where I know if I'm watching the Spectrum in the early 80s, Kal and Dick are going to say some goofy ass, unintentionally funny shit. And if we get to have a Kal pre-match interview, especially with Muraco, it's fucking heaven. Of course that doesn't mean that it's *good*. Just that it's entertaining bad stuff. John "He hit him THERE!!!!" -Kal Rudman calling a nutshot

Hard for me to view him as underrated since I recall him getting pimped in the newsletters from Global and then as one of the Indy Heros of the early 90s, pre-ECW. Waltman and Sabu got the most run, guys like Lynn and Snow on the level below them. I don't think smart fans really turned on him until he went into prick mode (basically Little HHH), possibly prior to that as he was sucking off the power of Nash and Hall and the nWo to get large pushes there. I don't think people tended to knock his work until it reach a general point of just not liking him, though there did seem to be times in WCW and DX where he didn't give a shit (relative to others busting their ass) or was too zonked out of his mind to perform well... or a combo of both. It's not like he hadn't been zonked out for years earlier before that - he was way far gone the two times we saw him in Japan in March 1995 to the point of not tracking and being embarassing. John

I actually think Vince was better than Gorilla. Of course he tended to let Jesse have his run. Jesse was annoying, and I preferred Bobby, but the Butch-Fem relationship between Gorilla and Bobby is pretty painful to listen to these days. It just tends to suck a chunk of the enjoyment out of listening to Bobby. In contrast, Jesse came off strong opposite Vince, Vince allowed him to, but there were also times Vince would fire back and Jesse would have to admit a "I gotta call them like I see them" spot. There just was better balance in that team. Gorilla with people *other than* Bobby is just fucking horrorific. With Dick Graham in Philly was terrible, especially after years of campy fun of the Dick & Kal team. Gorilla with Gene was terrible. Gorilla with Jesse was crappy as Gorilla wouldn't sell for Jesse, wouldn't put him over... and Jesse wasn't going to bitch out for Monsoon like Bobby did. Just a bad match. his pairing with Lord Al was often the worst since they'd be all over the place. I recall watching a Strike Force vs. Harts where it was Bockwinkle with Al and Monsoon, and that was painful... felt sorry for Bock. Yep, though Jesse got ripped a lot more when he went to WCW since it was clear he was just there for the paycheck and the egofuck. Yep, though it was a pretty brief pairing. They did pair again for a while in WCW, but it seemed to be missing something. John