jdw

Heyman was a funny one. WON HOFers as Bingo Hall goers drinking the Kool-Aid. John

Memory fails me since it was likely little more than turning the page of the Gong mag, Watt's picture being there, and a "yes" from Dave breing it. But I doubt Dave gave or gives Bill credit just as a promoter. There's that "top heel" stuff, Major Bruno Opponent stuff, "considered for the NWA Title" stuff that Dave always marks for (even the ones that don't pass the laught test), the Gifted Booker stuff in Florida under Graham (Dave loved FL and spent summers out there with family)... and then finally the Promoter stuff. Crockett is a bit like the "Small Man Influence" credit game. If you've ever seen some of the Hall Of Fame and Andersons thread over on Wrestling Classics, the credit for Mid-Atlantic is credited to everyone in sight. Flair, Wahoo, Johnny Valentine, the Andersons, Super Genuis Booker George Scott, Steamer... I'm probably forgetting some. Crockett's name doesn't usually get mentioned... if only because he hasn't been debated much there. I'm not knocking Crockett as a candidate. Just pointing out that he's part of a long line of people being giving credit for Mid Atlantic being the greatest promotion of all-time, or some such thing. John

Angle’s inclusion isn’t as embarrassing as Ultimo’s. Angle isn’t in because of Dave’s “legitimacy” markdom. Meltzer in his piece describing the difference between the various wrestling HOFs pointed out that what he thinks makes his “special” is the number of voters inside the biz. Angle is in because a large percentage of the Observer voters are people in the biz. Angle is in because insecure pro wrestlers (people inside the biz) are legitimacy marks. Ole writes in his book how none of these guys today could have headline Georgia back in his day because they don’t know how to work and then makes the exception of Kurt Angle. Not because Angle works like Ole but because saying that is functional equivalent of saying “Yeah that stuff I did where I cut the ring in half and such, that’s just like gold level Olympic athletics.” No way to do a HOF voted on by proffesional carnys without Angle getting in. That's the most entertaining thing I've read in the thread so far. Sorry for the Quote+One Sentence... but people need to read it again. John

In WWE? The same promotion where currently you have to be over 6 foot tall and a muscular 225 pounds to even be considered for a developmental contract unless your dad was in the business. The fact is very few smaller guys are getting hired and if they are lucky enough to be hired and promoted to the main roster they aren't pushed past the meaningless cruiserweight or tag divisions. Rey is an anomaly within WWE, not some sort of trendsetter that changed Vince McMahon's narrow perceptions about what a wrestler should look like. That said, I don't disagree that Rey's influence was phenomenal, but more for the reasons Kevin Cook suggested. This is fairly close to how I would see Rey's impact/influence. I think one of the problem with influence and impact is that 100% of the credit for something tends to be given to whatever candidate you're talking about at the moment. I'll go to an extreme here. Funaki was getting just about 100% of the credit for MMA in Japan when the Marching And Chowder Society was behind him as a candidate. The impact of Maeda or Takada or Sakuraba was ignored while pimping Funaki, which was pretty silly. That's one example. We've seen it with the "He's Small And Opened The Door For Small Wrestlers" influence/impact be given to Shawn when it was his time to get pimped. We've seen it given to Benoit. And of course Rey. I tend to wish that it was a bit more realistic in how it's talked about and given out. To a degree, Rey's impact and influence in Pro Wrestling should be monsterous and massive. It would be if the WWE and WCW were such a bunch of brainless fuckups. It is a credit to Rey that despite what a bunch of fuckups that he has had a pretty strong impact and influence on the business. But... I worry about seeing it overpimped like Shawn's was. John

I worry about this one to a degree. Crockett shows typically drew a lot less when Flair wasn't on the card. Those cards were often pretty loaded up with "hot" feuds and/or matches. Things like the RnR vs. MX, RW vs. Russians, some combo of Dusty-Maggie-Tully feud. I'm not saying that they weren't a draw. They were. But I've also seen too many WONs back in those days about how they weren't drawing absent Ric that I'd like to see someone work up their drawing power as Crocket went national. I don't have a problem with the RnR and the MX (especially if it was the "MX with Jim Cornette" going in as a group). John

Warrior Wants Hogan Money & Hogan Schedule So Vince fired him. I'd say Davey deciding to distribute HGH and other shit in the WWF while Vince is, in a rare moment, serious about Drug Enforcement. But it only got Davey fired. He kept getting hired by WCW and the WWF for years after that, so it's not clear that it took a ton of money out of his pocket. John

As classy as ever! Coming from you, that's a compliment... Wait... I joke about which Von Erich will drop dead, while you crack on her for being a slut ("Diva") and a dope fiend ("family history"). And I'm the one not being "classy"? Same old Brambilla. Stepping on his own cock while trying to slap someone around. John

Does someone need to start a pool on when the next Von Erich will drop dead? John

Ric was sad to watch years ago. Hell, watching him in with Vader was sad. It's moved past being sad. Now it's great comedy to watch how pathetic he is. The ladder match with Edge had me on the floor with how funny-bad it was. John

This needs a Goodhelmet Project for people to really be able to sink their teeth into it. John

I agree with the splitting of "Stone Cold" into different pieces, similar to how his WCW career is all split up. I think Tom and kjh have it pretty close to covered. I would make one additional Split: I would actually split that into Rising Heel Stone Cold (KOTR '96 to Mania '97) and Pre Injury Rising Face Stone Cold (Post-Mania '97 to Summer Slam '97). They look like short stretches, but they would be interesting contrasts to see how he worked as a Heel and Face as he was developing the Stone Cold persona. Here are the PPV matches in each: 07/97 Steve Austin p Marc Mero (10:48) (IYH) 10/97 Steve Austin p Triple H (15:30) (IYH) 11/97 Steve Austin p Owen Hart (4:04) 01/97 Rumble 02/97 Final Four Match (24:05) (IYH) 03/97 Bret Hart b Steve Austin (22:05) (Mania) 04/97: Steve Austin DQ Bret Hart (21:09) (IYH / Taker's Revenge) 05/97: Undertaker p Steve Austin (20:06) (IYH / Cold Day In Hell) 06/97: Shawn Michaels DDQ Steve Austin (22:29) (KOR) 07/97: Harts vs. US Five Man Tag (24:31) (IYH/Canadian Stampede) 08/97: Steve Austin p Owen Hart (16:16) (SSlam) One would have to figure out the TV and the Commerical Tape stuff that's out there. There's probably a longer match with Owen in the Heel section than the one at Survivors. There's a lot of stuff on TV: 06/24/96 Taker vs. Austin (RAW) 07/29/96 Taker vs. Austin (RAW) Both are the main events and go across two ad breaks. Not short matches. 10/14/96 Shawn vs. Austin (RAW) Another main event 12/16/96 Vader vs. Austin (RAW) Shortish 01/20/97 Taker vs. Austin (RAW) Another main event There's additional stuff after the face turn, such as main events against Mannkind and Davey Boy, the Tag Titles win with Shawn over Davey & Owen, LOD vs Shawn & Austin, Dude Love & Austin vs. Davey & Owen, and Bret & Owen & Davey vs. Austin & Dude & Take. Again, I think there's probably a fair amount of non-TV stuff that was taped for CHV release. They're not long runs, but they are a bit different as he was developing the persona... and he was in with some Top Stars. John

Beyond all that, the WWE has had various Drug Policies going back before the Wellness Program. Vince's contract calls for him to provide "samples" persuant to them going back to 2000. Anyone think Vince ever pissed in a bottle in those years? John

I don't see any evidence that Vince didn't have a contract. The one that was signed in 2000 is still the one referenced in the March 2007 filing, which is long after the Wellness Program was put in place. In other words, it wasn't terminated and a new one was executed when he "went back on contract". There isn't even an amendment that would cover "going off contract". More likely, he stopped being on TV for a while and/or stopped getting paid on it. There are references that Vince wasn't taking money from his Employment Contract other than Salary. In other words, he wasn't taking the bonuses. It's not explicit that he wasn't taking money from the Talent Contract. John

It's not in the 10-K or 10-Q's that he was "off contract". There are no additional amendments to the Talent Contract other than the one listed, which means any work on WWE TV as of the filing of the 10-K would be covered by it. If I recall correctly, they've filed at least one 10-Q since then. Do you mean "off TV"? John

Dear Representative Waxman A special thanks to RYDER's comments in this thread. They pissed me off enough to refresh my memory on the WWE's public filings and Vince's own talent contract. It's been a few years since I bothered to look at them. John

He's been doing the double issue spot for a while this year - before Benoit. I'd have to go back and look to see which of the Benoit issues that I could do without. It's more likely that I could do without the entire backend of the WONs (Mexico section, Japan section, MMA Promotion sections, TNA section, WWE section) than any of the Benoit stuff. I thought his long easy on what might/could be done to the business was a good read. It's Dave's writing style, so if one wants to knock it they can. But there was a lot of thought there that was worth reading. I've found the coverage of the story, and this stretch of the WON, more interesting that a long "quiet" stretch of WWE and UFC PPV's. I confess to letting my sub lapse from time-to-time when getting bored by what's going on with this month's Smackdown! PPV. John

NOOOOOOO!!!!

This is a bit more than Fanboy/girl Doctor. The doctor was essentially dealing, with the Pharmacy being the fulfilment house. I'm am stunned that she doesn't go to the slammer for taking the fee and then future fees per each script. John

I don't think Vince felt the need to constantly talk. In contrast, Monsoon liked to talk to just hear his own voice. John

I've run across people who never thought Vince was any good, while thinking Solie was the god of the era. John

Smart fans at the time hated him, and actually thought Tony was good. If you actually *listen* to 1985-87 matches before Ross showed up, and get past Crockett getting excited as all hell... you'll notice that: ( a ) Tony talks in generalities, focusing on quasi-storylines while fluffing his way through the play-by-play. ( b ) Crockett actually calls shit better than Tony, even though he's not exactly the play-by-play man. He calls the hold, and will even put over the pain/pressure/etc. Tony is more in "Whatta Manuever!" mode. Crockett does both - calls the hold and explains it while also sporting wood over it. Tony, in re-watching from the 80s, really is mediocre. It surprised me, since back in the 80s I was annoyed like everyone about David stroking his cock on TV every weekend. But he actually combined the excitement with the calling of the match well. Tony faked his way through calling the match, and I think in hindsight it's obvious that he faked his way through a lot of the excitement as well other than his favorites. Crockett is a bit like late 70s, early 80s McMahon on rewatch - they're a lot better than given credit for. Vince calling a good match at MSG is really good in the context of the era. I'll take Vince of that era over Solie any day. John