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So what are you watching, Loss? I did my duty by civic talking about Garvin-Valentine. You need to step up and talk about some Barry. John

I'm glad to see that name is sticking. John

You think Vince (and Steph and Trip) care about Smackdown? John

Cena/Edge/Orton --> Cena/Michaels/Taker Taker's streak on the line. Shawn, at his "most over ever", headlining again. John

Good. John

I had tossed this up at tOA after Bam Bam died: The WON had a piece this week. Hard to tell if there's going to be a second part to this. Dave usually says "more next week" or "a full bio next week" when the first one is just a brief overview. *If* this is the full bio, it would be pretty disappointing. It's not that I'm a Bam Bam fan. But he is an interesting subject as one of the biggest "Prospects" of the 80s and never really reaching the potential. This issue didn't really scratch the surface. Hopefully there's a full bio this week. John

The US version is actually edited quite a bit. It's better to watch the Japanese version to know what the whole match was about. The US version was edited to a more spot-fu version. John

Ditch has it. Check you PM's over at SC. John

That's right. I suspect that gordi hasn't taken a look at that. John

Are you sure? The "28:20 of 51:32 shown" is from Dan's set lists. John

I agree. It does have ebb and flow that slow it down here and there and also tend to re-set things. They weren't used to filling 50 minutes at that point. But a primary element that they were working for in the match was the length of the match, so to get the drama they had as it kept going and going and going, one really needs to see all of it (or as much of it as possible). The 5/94 Misawa & Kobashi vs. Kawada & Taue is the same way. To a degree it helps seeing earlier World Tag Title and Tag League matches of the era to understand it better. Not exactly from a "storyline" standpoint, but from a shift/development/change/evolution in how big tag matches (and to a degree big matches) were being worked. But this I mean... All Japan big matches were slipping into a patern where they'd fill time for 15-20 minutes, then work the hell-on-wheels to the finish for 7-10 minutes, depending on the match and who was in it. The 5/94 pushed the boundries. They filled time for about 17 minutes, including a stretch of working over Kobashi's knee (which from a storyline standpoint would play into some things later in the match). When television joins the match, we're getting just a little taste of the knee work period before things pick up and it looks like their begining the hell-on-wheels to the finish work. TV has about the last 22 or so minutes of the match. It's work pretty much like the last 7-10 minutes of earlier big tag matches. As Frank would say, the match went past midnight... and kept going for another 10+ minutes. We'd see a lot of that as the decade went on. 6/95 is another 40+ minutes match that has a very long equivalent of the old "work to the finish" part. In fact, we saw so many long periods of work like that as the decade went on (including a pair of 60 minute draws), that if you watch the 5/94 match after some of those other ones, you might miss that it is the break through match in the format. I'm not saying that makes the match "great" or "better" than some others. Simply that part of what they were doing in the match was breaking through their prior boundries, and that to see that one needs to see both all of the match, but a good sample of it's peers *prior* to it. The April 1991 six-man tag is similar. John

Dan has a more complete version of this (48-49 minutes of it) that aired on a special. Well worth asking him about. John

I don't get to worked up on whether it's a deragatory term or not. Is it a hold? Yes. Are they using it to rest? Yes. It's a resthold. Even the best use them if they're going long. Whether they're using the resthold effectively or not is a different question. An example? Kawada hits a running high kick into the corner that crushed Misawa's oribtal bones and knocks him goofy. Misawa is goofy for a decent amount of time early in the match. Kawada knows it, and Misawa's not so out of it that he doesn't grasp that he's "not in condition" to continue working their normal opening gambits. Kawada applies a number of restholds, far more than one would typically see out of the two in their 30 minute matches, to let Misawa collect his head. He picks things up here and there to not totally put the crowd to sleep, but by and large he takes a fair amount of time to let Misawa rest and collect his head. They are restholds, plain and simple. It does served a purpose in a match - to let a really fucked up wrestler try to get it together since they really couldn't take it home. In all honesty, the quality of the work from a "what they actually did" in those holds wasn't good at all. It didn't do a great amount to engage the fans. It didn't really further a storyline in the match. The only thing compelling about it is to the *home viewer* who knows the score and is trying to figure out just how fucked up Misawa is. But in terms of the "purpose", it was pretty decent work from Kawada - he had a cripple in the ring. He wasn't scheduled to win. All Japan doesn't do DCOR or DDQ to allow them to call an audible "finish" to get Misawa out of the ring. It's a 30 freaking minute, and the accident happens a minute into the match. Most opponents would fucking panic, yet Kawada kept a cool head. So it's one of those good/not-good sections, depending on how one wants to judge it. But they are still restholds. There are good and bad restholds, regardless of what people in the past may think of the term. It's similar to a whole slew of people on the net (and in the business) hating the *term* "workrate" because they don't really understand what it means. Of course they aren't helped by the fact that people tend to bastardize the term, just as "hardcore wrestling" got bastardized by ECW. I wouldn't get to worked up over the term. I'd focus more on whether it's a decent resthold, or if it was just pissing away time, lost the crowd, or derailed the match. John

It's more than just "reviewers". There are plenty of fans who think the same thing. Holds = boring, unless it's a holds based style such as UWF. That thinking *is not* an online invention. You can see it in old WONs as well. There's a reason the Flair was so popular among hardcore fans in the 80s and 90s even before the net and that his matches were "great" and "action packed". It's because Ric kept things moving along, more than most any heavyweight in the US at the time. He did it in a theatrical style. Easy connection. John

I tend to think there are times were a decently worked "resthold" doesn't adversely affect a match. In other words, where the purporse of the hold is to *rest* rather than to simply "fill space in the match". In turn, I also think that there are times when a decently worked "resthold" *does* adversley affect the match. The 08/22/87 Tito vs. Bass match has a really strong opening 13 minutes. When they go to restholds: Even though the primary purpose of the hold is to rest since Bass is pretty gassed, there are elements here and there in the work of the resthold that *are* trying to get reactions from the crowd. But on the other hand: It really does grind the match to a halt, losing a big chunk of the goodwill the fans invested in the really strong 13 minutes of work they did. There was a reason for the restholds - primarily to rest, secondarily to try to eat up some of the clock left. Even through they were resting, they tried at times to play to the crowd. Overall, it didn't work well in contrast to what they did earlier in the match. I strongly suspect Bass *knew* that the resthold would flatten out the crowd heat, and I think it's why he put a little extra effort in trying to work during them. But I also think by that point in the match that he didn't fell like he had any other choice but to resthold - he was gassed, and he simply didn't have enough to eat up a larger chunk of time with Tito In Peril without going to a resthold. Ric preferred to go-go-go. If he was going long, grabbing a hold was needed. He usually worked hold for dogshit in the 80s. John

No, even good workers will slip on a resthold and do very little for 20-60 seconds or even more while letting themselves and their opponent take a breather. Even good workers will do things in the ring that aren't instantly intended "to get Z reaction". I tend to think that Ric Flair is a "good worker". But there are times even at his peak where he would slip on the Mid-Atlantic Armbar or a headlock and do very little while taking a pause to give the opponent a breather. Or, in the case of the famous "didn't grab a hold for sixty minutes and were constantly doing spots" match with Brody, taking *long* pauses in restholds that weren't there to get a reaction out of the crowd. They were there to keep Brody from having a heart attack since he was sucking wind so hard. I agree with Bix's general point - stuff in wrestling matches are done for a reason. There basically is some thought behind it. But it's not 100% to get reactions. That is clearly the Overall Goal of Working. But it isn't done in 100% of the "stuff" in 100% of the matches. On the specific of Bockwinkle, he actually was at times pretty boring when it came to rest holds. I've seen Nick look good working holds, and other times I've seen him look like paint drying. John

HBK v Edge Streetfight '07 in two parts: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yUhD7IPjJfE http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K2VzbO7AYC8 John

This is a ways down the road for the WWF stuff that I'm hitting, but it is a match that I watched earlier. I found it exceptionally disappointing. If you want another contrast to how these two can work together, the early 1987 Barry & Garvin vs. Dick & Ivan US Tag Title match is a good one. John

Not always. Sometimes the do Q at Y point to give opponent B and themself (Wrestler A) a breather. You know... the old resthold. Restholds aren't always poorly worked. It's one thing that comes through in watching a chunk of matches like the DVDVR WWF 80s set - there are wrestlers who can put on a resthold to give both a breather while also working it in a fashion that doesn't lose the crowd. I'd have to go back and look at some of my comments, but Dibiase comes to mind as someone who took a breather well. That's one example where things are done in the ring not exactly to get a reaction. I'm sure we can think of others. John

The best source for quick and dirty ratings history is the Wrestling Information Archive: WWE Ratings History Ratings had been in the 3.6 +/- 0.2 range during football season with *no* outliners other than Christmas. They were in roughly the 4.0 +/- 0.2 range prior to that back to late Feb 2006 with with a handful of outliners, only won as high a +/- 0.4. The end of football looks to have boosted it up from 3.6 +/- 0.2 to possibly the 3.9 +/- 0.2 range. It's a bit too early to tell if the second week of the year was an outliner and the range is slightly higher, or if it's the bottom of the range. I'd hazzard to guess it's a mild outliner and the range probably centers on 4.0 or so. Anyway, on the question... There's nothing significant about the 4.0 or the 4.1 last week. The ratings are simply back up to what they were before football. So far, they're actually worse than they were this time of year in 2006. John

Let's leave tOA out of this. It's not like I've commented on this thread or anything. John

1976 is pretty amazing. Loss still hasn't talked about: * the 03/28/1976 Jumbo Tsuruta vs Rusher Kimura (which is probably the definative "interpromotional match" of the 70s) * the 05/01/1976 Shohei Baba vs Jumbo Tsuruta, which while not without issues here and there, is the best Baba vs. Jumbo match that I've seen. It brings a hell of a lot of positives to the table from both. Baba cuts Jumbo off several times with what might be seen as too much ease by some. But he also has been The Man of Japanese wrestling since 1966. This is halfway through his *11th* year of being The Man. Jumbo is essentially 1993 Kobashi at this point - super worker, super over, but a ways down the pecking order (behind Baba and a fair number of Gaijin like the World Champ and Dory, etc.). This of a younger, healthier Misawa after ten years of being The Man facing a 1993 Kobashi at a time when All Japan hasn't yet gone to have 30 minute TC matches (let alone 40+). Misawa would let Kobashi through him around a fair amount (as Baba lets Jumbo toss him around), but he'd also use the trusty elbows to cut off Kobashi with a lot more ease that he would with 1993 Hansen (the #2 guy in the promotion that year). So Baba cutting off Jumbo with what looks like a bit more ease that we might want *is* All Japan psych on how an Ace deals with a Rising Star. * 07/17/1976 Jumbo Tsuruta vs Billy Robinson - their first singles match None of those matches are as good as Baba-Billy or Terry-Jumbo... or to me as good as Brisco-Jumbo. But they all bring interesting and good (and at times "great") things to the table. It really was an interesting year. There are a *lot* of years in the 70s and early 80s where Brisco-Jumbo would be my Match of the Year. That's how good and interesting the years is - it's one of the best matches of the decade that's available, but it isn't even #2 for its own year. John

I assume it's Jerry Jarrett. Jeffey would have been 6-7 years old in 1974. John

I actually think he was really happy about it. While he might have voted for someone else #1 rather than Mistico, he did put him over strongly in the last two issues (and further back than that). He made a big point about the "historic nature" of a Luchadore and a Junior winning the award, both firsts. I just think he's being "fair" in pointing to Mistico having shortcomings rather than being, in his eyes, a lucha equiv of Kobashi - the total package. Other than that... I don't think he was overly enthused about the US candidates. There wasn't a Stone Cold, a Rock or even a HHH (in Dave's eyes) among the candidates. The business here had issues. He was basically looking for positives in Ege and/or Cena for their candidacies. There are some there, but they're relative to other problems the WWF is having. I suspect that he'd be perfectly happy if an MMA guy won, similar to Mistico winning. But from the piece last week, he seemed to think it was a wide open year and a variety of candidates brough positives to the table. Mistico was one of them. John

I don't recall Dave ever commenting on the Awards like he did this year. He has on occassion done what he did last week - break down the WotY, though this was in more "detail" that he usually does. On occassion in the Post-Yearbook era he would the week before give his selections on all or most of the awards. But this was pretty new. I sort of like it... though they were comments on a bunch of awards that I didn't really care much about. :/ I would have enjoyed similar style comments back in the 1991-2002 time frame. The WWF HOF piece was good for a while... but the list was so long that it kind of ran out of steam down the stretch. John