jdw

Backlund-Hogan is interesting. I've liked Hogan's matches far more than I expected to when rewatching/watching WWF 80s stuff. To the point of taking some grief for pushing the notion that Hogan was a very "effective" worker at a time when he was still getting shit on. In turn, liked Backlund match far more than I ever expected when watching them, to the point that I was one of the early ones point out that he was actually a "good" worker, and took a lot of grief for it. Stylistically they're different, and the type of matches they worked were wildly different... though there is a commonality to the work as well (as others have pointed out in how WWF Dynastic Face Champ works relative to heels). Makes a comp tough, though both were extremely effective in connecting with their fans during matches, and getting the crowd going. John

I don't think they are. None of the people Dylan mentioned suffered a stroke, or anything remotely like it. No one thinks about Bret-Vince as having anything to do with Bret's work because he was a handicapped person in there. As far as trying to read-between-the-lines comp to the years of Flair being an old shitty worker*, I don't think he was working in there as a post-stoke person. He was just old and shitty, and kept working despite being old and pathetic. It's not really analogous to Bret. It's closer to watching the Bushwackers work the indy circuit... Nostalgia stuff. * Lots of hardcore fans of Flair don't think he was shitty when old, and you'd often get the "better than half the roster" stuff to gloss over Flair being shitty. John

"They would have needed to be the equiv of handhelds." -jdw "But they wouldn't have sent a multi-crew or a truck." -jdw "So if they taped it, that like[ly] was a one camera as well." -jdw "A one camera shoot, akin to a handheld rather than their normal multi-camera shoot. Which is what I said." -jdw That it's the WWF's own camera doesn't change the fact that a one camera shot is the WWF's equiv of a handheld. Similar to Nash-Backlund: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MGoQWNElahg Unless you think the WWWF/WWF/WWE's standard way of shooting stuff for TV and PPV and Video/DVD is one camera shots. Or even something they do semi-regularly. John

I kind of like the one he did against Kawada in the 1995 Carny.

I've seen this said a couple of times now, but was it really a "panic move"? Austin was supposed to be in the Survivor Series '99 main event until the neck injury (even advertised the day of the show) and Show was a last-minute replacement. Many seemed to think Austin was walking out of the show with the belt, they may have shifted gears and decided to try Show instead but HHH seemed to be fated to lose that night. It's just nonsense. It's a panic move if you ignore that Triple H went into a feud with Vince right after and main evented the PPV after Survivor Series while Big Show had a three minute match with Big Bossman in the midcard. Show also dropped the title about a month later back to Triple H. It was a panic move, and covered as such at a time, when folks like Dave had vastly more high placed WWF sources (such as Ross) completely dialed into why they did things.

Dave discussing the numbers like they exist in a vacuum is kind of amazing. The numbers are the last chapter in a long book. The real story is found in everything that came first. Is Danielson not moving merchandise and ratings, despite being the crowd favorite? It might be worth exploring WHY that's the case. That it is the case is really just skimming the surface on the issue. Triple H didn't initially move ratings and merch. He bombed. So bad that they took the belt off him and put it on Show in a panic move. Pair Trip with Vince & Steph in a storyline, then Steph & Mick in a storyline, then Rock and the whole McMahon Clan in a storyline... and suddenly Trip "moves numbers" and is a main event star for a decade. Not to mention getting to Bang The Boss' Daughter. Bryan is over. Reasonably strong. A smart company's job is figuring out how to get him over even stronger where he is part of the mix that does move the numbers. I mean... did Cena draw big the instant he showed up? When he was first pushed? How many in the WWE actually have? John

A one camera shoot, akin to a handheld rather than their normal multi-camera shoot. Which is what I said.

Roman Reigns: 6'3" 251 lbs. Daniel Bryan: 5'10" 210 lbs.

But it might only be something for Raw, or possibly the next PPV. Whether it changes their Mania plans... who knows.

I'm 170 posts into this thread, and finally something to make me laugh hard during all the morbidity of this card.

They would have needed to be the equiv of handhelds. Neither event were TV tapings or events that were otherwise shot. The first was in Springfield, MA... so it would have been easy enough to get a camera there from either Stamford or Albany (where they shot on Sunday). But they wouldn't have sent a multi-crew or a truck. The LOD one wasn't close to tapings: Jan 27/28 tapings in Texas, and then they wouldn't tape again until Feb 17/18 in Florida. They did an MSG show on Jan 31, but that likely was a regular crew they used for MSG rather than the bigger production crews they used for tapings and PPV. So if they taped it, that like was a one camera as well. And if they promised the LOD they wouldn't tape it, they likely had to hide it well because Hawk was just the type of person to go batshit if he thought you crossed him. John

Yeah, Kobashi chasing the moonsault was pretty common. The 1994 tag has 4 of them, and comes up with interesting ways to deal with them: Kobashi's damaged knee prevents him from pinning, he airballs, deeeeeeeep 2.9 kick out, then finish. As far as Misawa doing stuff in support, that is the Agamemnon effect at the end of 12/03/93: who really "beat" Kawada? John

My guess is that he was probably going to make the equiv of $200K to $250K a year in AJPW (given how taxes were handled) for working half the schedule that he did in the WWF. He wasn't going to make that much in the WWF, and WCW was in the Watts Austerity Era so there wasn't a big contract being dangled there for him in 1993.. He was 39, which meant he wasn't completely done as far as making money as he was right in the middle of this age group: 02/25/49 Flair 11/15/52 Savage 02/28/53 Steamboat 08/11/53 Hogan 01/18/54 DiBiase 05/14/55 Vader 07/02/57 Bret Hart 12/07/58 Rick Rude Some of them might have looked washed-up-ish in 1993, some of them not... but everyone was under contract when Ted left that WWF, other than Hogan hitting the wall with Vince as well. Flair, Savage and Hogan would go on to make a lot of money the rest of the decade. So... Parking in All Japan, making better money working less, and keeping an eye on what was going on in the WWF and WCW (both of whom were down in 1993) was a pretty obvious choice. I don't think Ted understood how far removed Misawa, Kawada and Kobashi were taking All Japan's working style from what he'd last working in the promotion (back in 1987), nor how Hansen in 1993 was able to go along with it... and how Doc would step up massively once Gordy overdosed and pretty much hit his peak while clicking with those three over an 19 month period that happened to start exactly as Ted was coming in... *pause* *re-reads that* Damn... that's a Meltzer sentence. Anyway, it was the right move for Ted. Had he not gotten hurt so quickly (on his 3rd tour), my guess is that he would have found 1994 difficult. I don't know how much he could have picked up his work to fit in. Probably by the Carny he would have stuck out even more like a sore thumb, if not in the 1993 Tag League where he'd have big tags against Misawa & Kobashi, Kawada & Taue (for the 3rd time) and Williams & Bubba. Which makes me think that he probably would have have been looking for a WCW gig shortly after Eric brought Hogan into the company in 1994. Ted would certainly have fit into Eric's mentality that led to signing both Hogan and then Savage later that year. So Ted was well placed for that just by camping out in All Japan, keeping in shape, working half the year, making money, etc. John

Odd. I thought Hulk was less vulnerable as Champ than Bob. It never matter how much Hulk sold, you know the shaking of the head, blocking the punch, wagging the finger & Hulking Up was going to eventually come. With Bob, there were different paths and options. He sold the shit out of the chair by Muraco in their 1981 MSG TDM, and you could sense the fans were kind of wondering where things would go from there. Did he come back and win? Sure... it was an MSG blow off match, and Face Dynastic Champs lost those matches... well... never. On the flip, in the first Slaughter match in Philly in 1981, Sarge kind of kicks the crap out of Bob, Bob hits a big ass gusher and sells the shit out of things. Sarge actually gets the "win". Vulnerable in losing the belt? By the end of Bob's reign, the average reign of a Dynastic WWF Champ was 4.9 years. How long is that? Hulk didn't even get to that number in his first reign, which sure is heck wasn't short. WWF Fans didn't really go to matches worrying their heads off a lot about the Champ losing the title. Well, unless they were very dumb and couldn't do math and couldn't remember what happened in the past. The WWF didn't sell Vulnerable in their Champs. They sold their Champs fighting the latest Heel to come into town calling out the Champ, and the Champ beating them.

Pretty sure I mentioned in the thread: this was based on the TV version, which was the last 20 minutes of the 40+ minute match. Not that it stopped him from giving out ***** before, but this one he went to ****3/4 on. Don't recall the reasons, though it did come a month after 12/06/96, and that was pretty fresh in the mind as a ***** match. John

I think this was based on the TV versions. The full versions weren't available until they aired on AJW classics, and then it was crystal clear which was better. I don't even think he went Full Monty on the Jaguar-Lioness match since he really wasn't doing TV reviews in 1985, nor got around writing up AJW reviews until the 1990. He may have said it was great and off the charts, but not sure if he went *****. Seem to recall Bowdren had it high on his 80s list in the 1989 Yearbook. Doubt Jeff looked to comp the "match time" with the "air time".

Sometimes. He did guzzle Volkoff,took a lot of the Valentine match. He still took a lot of the Larry Z matches. I do see Bob selling in his matches, and we've clearly disagree on that. I listed the times for the draw with Muraco. The only real "control" section of the first Backlund-Hansen is Stan's, which is seven minutes after a hot two and a half minutes going back and forth. Once Bob ends Stan's control section, they're pretty much picking things up and working towards the finish... for about 8 minutes with double juice, big spots, brawling and the ref checking the juice. We could do this with a lot of matches. I suspect that if we pop in the Bob-Greg draw we'd find Greg having his control sections and Bob selling. They can't fill 60 without it, and I doubt people like Dylan would like it if it was just Bob eating Greg up. In fact, I don't like their return match that year, and it's largely because Greg didn't seem interested in the match, so his performance in the draw (which I saw years later) had to have struck me as a big positive if I dug it as much as I did. Of course since it's a 70s match rather than an 80s one, I didn't spend several thousand words writing it up. Does Bob dominate some opponents? Sure. Does he sell? Yep, a good deal. Depends on the opponents and the match. But that's a pretty common thing in the WWF. It was a Face promotion. John

The one in Toronto was: -Six minutes: Faces on Top (little Hot Opening and a little Heel In Peril) -Five minutes: Face In Peril -One minute: run to the finish I wrote that it was less than I recalled on initial viewing, but poor clock management given the teams - Arn & Tully are really good at topping in FIP segments while feeding the faces comeback attempts. Here's another one I had in mind about Arn & Tully working HIP: vs Hart Foundation (SummerSlam) -10 minutes: Heel In Peril -3.5 minutes: FIP -2+ minutes: run to finish The matches with the Rockers around the horn typically opened with long Heel Stooging + Heel In Peril segments. The long Boston Garden match opened with 12 minutes of Heel Stooging + Heel In Peril, before going 9 minutes of FIP with Marty and then the last 2 minutes running to the finish. If there was an issue with the FIP section it was that it was all on Marty rather than going "double dip" with a hot tag and false house o' fire by Shawn before getting taken down. The match in MSG earlier in the day was 8+5+1 HS/HIP+FIP+RTF.

The word that comes to mind: Masturbatory John

This was a bit of a strange one as he had a hand held set of ratings early, then the TV version, then later saw the commercial version. The TV version wasn't short... perhaps chopped off 5 minutes, maybe a little more. It certainly wasn't the 1992 Toyota vs Kyoko or 1985 Jaguar vs Lioness massive clip job-o-rama. But I do think as he thought more about the Hokuto-Kandori after seeing the commercial, he eventually moved it up to ***** in his mind.

That was based on the 20 minutes JIP version on TV. Dave never rated the full version, if he even saw it back then. John

Except... I like Hogan vs Bossman. Hogan vs Orndorff. Bret vs Yoko. Backlund vs Slaughter. I don't really have a problem with Big Blue, which the more famous versions of the first two had, and was used in the live Bret-Yoko that I saw. I don't have a problem with Escape Rules, which was used in all of them. No blood was something that was annoying, but Bret-Yoko had none of it in the live match that I saw... the juice in Hogan-Orndorff on NBC was pretty minimal... even Hogan-Bossman was pretty minimal compared to some of the bloody Expansion Era matches, including a number of Hogan matches (he loved to juice). So... while I would have liked juice, it didn't bother me too much. I think a lot of us didn't like it because we didn't like it. Loss hit on it: repetitive and long, which made it kind of drag. Backlund vs Slaughter was 16 minutes. There were a lot of escape attempts. There was variety in them, ones that were fun, ones that we're "he's almost out!", and the one revolving around the door with Slaughter almost getting out is about as good of a cage sequence as I've ever seen. If it had been a ***3/4 or **** rating, it would have just been one of those that people thought, "Dave liked it better than us." The only people who would have remembered it would be those who thought it was a complete bore and * material. It's the going to ***** that led people to wonder. I think also looking at the thread, it didn't appear like many had it at *****, and if asked to put a rating on it wouldn't have gone that high. Perhaps one would have, the person who had it among the very cream of matches in WWF History. But the rest were more along the lines of "I really liked it" rather than "This is my new MOTY" that we tend to see in the threads. John