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Sports Illustrated Swimsuit and Castle were drawing Raw fans. John

Most of the Bash shows from 1986-88 were not taped. I went to the one in Los Angeles in 1988, and it wasn't taped. Looking at 1986, I think the only "tapings" were: July 1 Philadelphia (taping) July 5 Charlotte (taping) July 26 Greensboro (taped) Of the other 10, I think Roanoke had some clips of a Dusty-Bubba angle that made CMPunk's long set... but don't recall if is was a single camera thing simply there to capture an angle rather than a pro shoot. Looking at Graham's site, they also a lot of TV tapings in July at non-Bash cards: 7/6 Raleigh, 7/8 Spartanburg, 7/15 Gaffney, 7/16 Columbia, 7/22 Greenwood, 7/29 Rock Hill. Here are the other Bash shows from 1986: July 3 DC July 4 Memphis July 9 Cincinnati July 10 Roanoke (Clip of Dusty-Bubba confrontation) July 12 Jacksonville July 18 Richmond July 21 Fayetteville July 23 Johnson City July 25 Norfolk August 2 Atlanta Has stuff popped up from them that's pro shoot?

There's nothing in Dave's writing in the 80s that indicate he was getting WWF financial reports faxed to him daily. Pop open a random month of WON's in 1989. Do his numbers for WWF house shows look like they *all* are exact on attendance and gates? Does it even look like in any single issue he's tracking every card the WWF ran that week (i.e. all three crews along with any double shots)? At what point did Dave start including numbers for "every" card? Summer of 1992 when he broke out the results into their own section? How exact are they in 1992? Is attendance even listed for every card? It would be wildly entertaining if Dave scanned in one of those "financial reports" that he got "daily". It's 20 years after the fact... it would be pretty hard for the WWF to come after him at this point. John

No one is saying Gorilla didn't get paid well for working for the WWF. The buyout doesn't really have much of anything to do with Gorilla getting paid as an announcer in the WWF. I'm saying that math for the "buyout" doesn't pass the laugh test.

Some people are very good at sucking the fun out of a topic. You loved Sorrow's Happy Days post.

I think the very first response to you, by one of the more sane posters on the site, summed up the entire position of one side of the discussion perfectly: "The oil crisis tended to disproportionately affect wrestling promoters who weren't giving people what they wanted to see anymore." -Loss The thing went on for page after page after that because you tried to shape shift as the thing went along, which was summed up well by one response: Which is still the case. John

Well, this is what you rolled out in your last post: "Just to play devil's advocate here, where's your evidence to back that up?" -Jerry To which I responded (after dealing with all the other nonsense in your post): Which still stands. You've got literally nothing, yet you're requiring us to prove wrong something that is utterly laughable. John

Why question Dave? Because the math didn't pass the laugh test.

Yeah... Kobashi struck me as "thick" rather than "ripped". That doesn't mean he wasn't muscled, as he clearly was. But not like Warlord, Chris Chavis, or Luger & Sid, etc. The juiced in Japan just tended to get more of a "think" look among the natives.

Fun thread. Ran onto Page 3. Then the Mid South stuff started, which was a riot as well.

Tenzan and Kojima were pretty obvious before/after. It was part of the business. There just weren't a lot of Warload or Chris Chavis "looks" among the natives. The look was more one of "thickening" than flat out getting ripped.

Rock? 02/16/97 The Final Four: Rocky Maivia over Triple H 07/26/98 Fully Loaded: Rock draw Triple H (2/3 fall match) 08/30/98 SummerSlam: Triple H over Rock (Ladder Match) 05/23/99 Over The Edge: Rock over Triple H via DQ 07/25/99 Fully Loaded: Triple H pinned Rock (Strap Match) 09/26/99 Unforgiven: Triple H over Rock & Show & Kane & Mankind Smith to win title (Trip pinned Rock) 11/14/99 Survivor Series: Big Show over Triple H & Rock to win WWF Title (Show pinned Triple H) 04/02/00 Mania: Triple H over Rock, Foley & Show (first heel ever to win Mania main event - Trip pinned Foley & Rock to win) 04/30/00 Backlash: Rock pinned Triple H to win title 05/21/00 Judgment Day: Triple H beat Rock to win title (Iron Man Match) 06/25/00 King of the Ring: Rock & Kane & Undertaker beat Triple H & Vince & Shane (Rock pinned Vince to win title) 08/27/00 SummerSlam: Rock over Triple & Kurt Angle (Rock pinned Trip - Trip blows off Triangle Angle with Steph & Kurt) 12/10/00 Armageddon: Angle beat Rock, Austin, Rikishi, Triple H & Undertaker (HitC - Angle beat Rock) Trip had the amazing ability to avoid putting over Rock. Even in the blow off to their feud in 2000 (King of the Ring), Vince stepped in to put the belt back on Rock. Then at SummerSlam when the heat of the storyline was on Steph & Trip & Trip, with the notion that Steph might split with Trip to join Kurt, Trip couldn't allow himself to be the cuckold and killed the storyline. This isn't new. People talked about it at the time. John

I think that was one of the items I mentioned: In your 1986 post, you have Savage as a Villian of the Month rather than a SV. Late-1985/1986 Savage relative to Hogan wasn't terribly different than 1984/85 Orndorff that you have listed in those years as a Super Villian. Relative to the promotion, Late-1985/1986 Savage was different - he had more stuff going on outside of Hogan, while Orndorff didn't really until going face and having the big feud with Piper. It's a reason why I have problems with Buckets. 1986 Savage is somewhat similar to 1984-85 heel Orndorff relative to his program with Hogan but quite different in terms of his other programs, while in turn not remotely similar to 1986 Orndorff's program with Hogan. I don't even worry too much about concepts like Number 1 Heel with the WWF in that period. Orndorff was the #1 heel for six months, then it was over and he never was terribly relevant in the company again. Savage had stretches where you'd point to him as the #1 heel, some because he was up to something massive (Mega Powers break up), and other times because no one else really was a clear #1 and Savage just happened to be sustaining his years long push (kinda sorta post 1987 Mania where no one really was heated up Huge for Hogan). I don't know how terribly useful the trying to cram folks into round holes and square holes is. Example: Was Kamala a Super Villan or a Villan of the Month? I don't know, and I'm not sure how relevant it is. More interesting, and important to know, is that his feud with Hogan drew big money, in some cities breaking the records just set by Hogan-Orndorff. When pondering that, trying to analyze why and give it some though, does it matter whether he's a SV or a VotM or some such other thing? Not really. It's probably much more important to consider: * the WWF was really hot at that moment * the Hogan-Orndorff feud had been white hot * Hogan was white hot coming off the Orndorff feud * the WWF was in a stretch of getting over Hogan's primary opponents very well: - Savage then Bundy (for a short period) then Orndorff then Kamala then Andre * the WWF was a little less successful post-Mania in all of that (i.e. things didn't draw as strongly, and opponents weren't as strongly over) So if we're going to ponder why Kamala drew, the SV and VotM doesn't really matter a great deal. That the product was hot and over, and that they were on a good role of getting people hot and over, and that Hogan was so over that things were through the roof... that really is the more important thing to consider. Dittos the #1 heel thing. One looks at 1987 and it doesn't really matter or come into consideration other than (i) Andre leading into Mania, (ii) Andre at Survivor, and (iii) the churning after Survivor of Ted and the belt. But that's like 4-5 months of the year. Anyway, going back to the original question / thoughts... I'm still saying that the booking around Hogan was pretty stew-ish for much 1987 rather than super clear and focused. The clarity of Orndorff --> Kamala --> Andre washed out fast, and to a degree we were back in the foggy nature of 1984-85 again. I don't really think Vince & Co. thought on those terms. :/

I'm not entirely sold on that. Trip's "performer" contract has a minimum of $1M. That was the one signed in January 2012 when he'd transitioned away from fulltime work and into the office (the EVP gig was handed to him the prior August). You honestly think that Cena's isn't more, while working fulltime? If it is, he has a really stupid agent... John For whatever it's worth, the word going around here with friends of his is that Seth Rollins' net income last year was 1.25 million. Consider that Punk's merch numbers aren't going to be split up the way Rollins' would, a bit higher spot on the cards, likely a way better downside, it's feasible that Punk was making awesome money. Net after taxed (Income Tax, Self-Employed Tax in the place of Payroll Tax, State taxes)? At that amount, he'd be in the top fed bracket (39.6%), and payroll wouldn't be insignificant. Or net after taking out "wrestling expenses" such as travel & what not if the company doesn't pick up the tab?

Looking at your classifications of various wrestlers, I'm not sure if there's anything terribly productive in weighing in line by line other than to say that I don't agree with a lot of it. Just brief examples: * I don't see a great deal of different between SuperVillan Orndorff in 1984 and 1985 with Villain of the Month Savage in 1986 * I don't think 1986/87 Kamala is terribly analogous with 1987 Race, certainly not 1987 Herc, and 1987 Khan is questionable * "perennial threat, a live and present force of evil in the company, a top heel who will keep coming back for more" is a bit of a problem when describing Muraco in 1985, failing to describe Savage in 1986, kind of a problem for Orndorff in 1986 since he never came back after that, Bundy's run with Hogan was surprisingly less than any of us would think and he never amounted to much after that... etc. They're challengers. Some got huge pushes like Paul in 1986. Some did a hell of a lot more box office than anyone would have thought like Kamala. Some are kind of "WTF?", like all those challenges Savage got in 1987 after droping the IC Title and not really having a serious build up towards Hogan. Some were "favorite opponents" like Studd, always a safe opponent to run out if there wasn't a major storyline going on. Etc. John

Ted's first vignette aired on the 06/27/87 Superstars. He would be on tv all over the place for two months before his first match with Hogan on 08/23/87. His Hogan matches weren't limited to Watts country. In one of the other posts, you're off on when the major storyline started. The 11/28/87 Superstars was when Ted said he was going to buy the belt. That came after they moved past the "test match" stage in Aug-Oct to working more regularly in November after the Hogan-Khan series ended (which as I listed above was the other half of Hogan matches in their first half of the Hogan-OMG series going around the horn). John

I like, though... I really liked the YB Section while the YB's were still going on since it was easier to follow the YB's (and even new people coming along working their way through the matches). It does open things up to additional matches, which is a positive. But it does make it less clear that it's a YB match/discussion, and those have been so interesting to read as they work their was through a year... especially that part of people coming a year of two after the initial one, and posing new questions or stuff. Overall positive... "but". John

Lots of traces of him as a Poster remain, but the offending nonsense is gone. John

The people running around yelling "work" are just the worst kind of fan. They are so worried about being smarter than everyone else, that EVERYTHING is a work because "I'm too smart to get worked" I'm sure the same people yelling "it's a work!" are the same who thought Daniel Bryan getting fired the first time was a work or even that Lawler's heart attack was a work. Bryan's firing was a "firing". We all knew that he would be back in no time once things cooled and the potential impact on Linda's campaign went bye-bye. Which is exactly what happened, far quicker than expected. He was as "fired" as Patterson what when he went on vacation during the sex scandal. John

Hogan drew reasonably well against all of those guys he faced in 1987. There's a bit of a sense that they didn't want to make every Hogan Opponent have a storyline as EPIC~! hot shotting as Hogan-Orndorff and Hogan-Andrea. Hogan-Kamala has angle/storyline to it, but there were vestiges left in that period of not having to overboard on every opponent. It's likely that they knew they wanted to do something big again with Andre to heat him back up, just probably weren't as clear in their mind as to what. Ted eventually came along, and over time they plotted out The Main Event title change in their minds, and there you go. John

I doubt it. I suspect Vince knew it was "special" and wanted to save it for another PPV. They never ran Hogan-Andre around the house shows regularly in that era, while Andre-Warrior got run *after* Hogan-Andre got played out on PPV and TV.