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...and I was wondering if people could have a go at answering some questions. How do you get behind a performer emotionally? I'm not sure what "get behind" means. In the work of pro wrestling, if we're behind a wrestler, it means we're rooting for him to win. I don't think a lot of us here care a ton about that in the big picture. We tend to like guys whose work we enjoy, an don't care most of the times if he/she wins. Emotionally? Eh. That I like someone's work? Regularly, since I tend not to watch a lot of stuff that I don't like. Am I drawing a fine line in "emotionally?" I don't know. I enjoy Hulk Hogan matches far more in the past decade than I did in the 80s. I have no emotional connection to Hulk, and don't get behind him. I just got to a point that the solid nature of his work and his ability to work his crowds became more obvious to me. I liked Hogan vs Orndorff at The Big Event. I have no emotional connection to the workers. I thought the work was solid, and there was a big match spectacle vibe to the match that one just didn't see much if at all in the WWF up to that point in the Expansion Era. I don't really feel like I'm making a huge investment in great matches. I'm just watching them, enjoying them and thinking about them. That may sound coy, but is it? Watching a Yearbook, with 60+ hours of stuff, is an investment to a "project". You're committed to watching your way through it. But when Misawa vs Taue pops up, is it really a huge investment to watch it... or are you just watching it and enjoying it? That's my general take on watching WWF 80s stuff. There was an investment in time to watch the stuff, especially the first 100 where there was stuff that just made my head hurt. But when a good match came up, watching was easy. Writing up is another investment: in time, and in trying to get my thoughts across. But did I have to invest anything in the Savage vs Tito No DQ match? No... just watched it, enjoyed it and thought about it. Good promos are entertaining, and good matches are entertaining. I don't need one to enjoy the other. Setting aside "connection" and "love", I don't think one needs to enjoy something the first time or forever hold their peace. Like I said above: I hated Hogan, and Hogan Matches in the 80s. I don't mind them now. I didn't care for Backlund matches when I first started watching them on old CHV releases. Now... I kind of dig his matches and his work. In turn, I loved Flair Matches when I first started watching wrestling. Now... I'd be happy never to watch another one as long as I live. John

Rick Rude at the Hedgehog... that's pretty funny.

Now John that's pretty rich to call JVK out on not revisiting the footage. Since you haven't revisited much footage in the last few years, Flair-Arn withstanding. If I was one of those guys who did pictures it would be pot calling kettle black. FYI I think Warrior held his own here, with a little help from rude. I can think of only two matches that I've been seriously called out to rewatch. One was the Flair-Arn, which I did... and then sat on the write up because I don't think it gives anyone anything they wanted to see. The other is a 60 minute match that I'd much rather watching in the context of the totality of 1993-95 AJPW rather than paratrooping into it as a solo match. That's probably upwards of 150 hours of stuff... so yeah, I'm sitting on it. Though I did download the link Ditch sent to me, and it's been sitting on my HD for several years. Beyond those two, which matches are we talking about? Or is it just a general vibe that folks wished I would watch a Yearbook set and post a bunch of thoughts?

Fair enough. I fully admit to pulling some of that stuff out of thin air since i didn't feel damned to look at numbers. What's your verdict when you compare the two of them ultimately on which of the two was a bigger draw during their WWF runs then? Not sure. Neither was a draw in the WWF. Beyond that... eh.

That 08/11/96 card at Korakuen Hall might have been the worst show I saw on my two trips to Japan.

On the overriding question of the thread... I don't really know. I've always viewed pro wrestling like TV and Movies. I enjoy a lot of TV and Movies that I have some emotional connection with... say Star Wars when I was a kid, or Emmanuelle 2: The Joys of a Woman as a horny mid-teen, or Seven Samurai as a stoner in college . But I also enjoy a lot of TV and movies on something that's more a cerebral level than an emotional level. When I watch Godfather and Godfather 2, is it emotional enjoyment now, or cerebral? Feels more like I'm enjoying thinking about the art and craft of it now than Moe Green getting shot in the eye. My rewatch of The Wire... this strikes me more cerebral now than emotional: Idris is exceptional, Gilliard is fantastic (especially after the earlier scenes where the police let him know what happened to Wallace). Am I splitting a fine line between what's emotional and cerebral? Maybe. But my thought would be... read this: http://www.xojane.com/it-happened-to-me/da...-maryville-rape That hit me emotionally this morning when reading it in my office... tears down my cheeks, almost shaking emotion. Wrestling doesn't to that to me. Never has, never will. :/ It doesn't even hit my like the simply emotion of my girlfriend leaving a message on my phone while I'm at lunch, and coming back to the office to hear it... the happy joy in her voice to let me know she's thinking about me. That's not just wrestling. I don't get a massive emotional charge watching Top Chef, and I really love me some Top Chef when I get around to binging on it. I just enjoy watching these folks cook, and how they go about the pressures of the competition.

Once I started getting the WON in 1991, there were rare occasions when I didn't know the result: something hitting the US shows so quickly that it hadn't been in the WON (this before a Japanese reporter started faxing me the results pretty much every day). The one that sticks out is the 5/94 Misawa & Kobashi vs Kawada & Taue match, which Hoback and I watched before heading down to TJ for some lucha. We could hear the time counts every five minutes, kept expecting it to end soon, (especially since nearly all of the TV version was "work to the finish" mode for 20+ minutes), and we blown away. But for most of the stuff after 1991, I knew the results. Oddly... I didn't enjoy the WON-era stuff anymore or less than I enjoyed the 1989-91 stuff before reading the WON.

Probably some point in 1988. Clawmaster's results have them still working territory-ish through the end of 1987, and a bit into 1988 (factoring in missing results as well since they ran increasingly smaller shows).

Always kind of sad that this one didn't make the cut: 06/22/80 AWA: Jumbo Tsuruta dq Nick Bockwinkel (20:05) in Minneapolis Really fun match, long been my favorite Nick vs Jumbo match.

One of the interesting things to look at for Ohtani would be his early years. He really got a bit of notice in late 1994 into 1995 when Liger was out, and he & Koji got pushed up. Noticed no later than the 10/94 Pegasus & Ohtani vs BT & Sasuke matches. But... between classics, commercial releases and hand helds, there are quite a few matches covering his first two years and change as a worker. Just two of his matches made the yearbooks by the end of 1994: the second Pegasus & Ohtani vs BT & Sasuke match, and the NJPW vs MPro match in the middle of the year. He was praised in both. Would be interesting to see someone go completest on what's available through the end of 1994, and chart his development.

Sad to hear about El Brazo.

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You made more than just that one point, and I touched 3 of 5 of them. If forgot the Beefcake-HTM one, though that probably balances out with Hennig main eventing some as IC champ, and one was something everyone agrees on since it's been documented over the years.

I haven't watched Kerry-Jumbo in a while. My recollection is that Kerry was a pretty good "Sting" in the match, in that he did his stuff well and was competent in going with what Jumbo had up his sleeve. Stuff like the matwork... Kerry knew how he was suppose to work that stuff from the bottom or the top. He wasn't being asked to be The Destroyer there or Backlund, just work some basic stuff solid... which I thought he did. It was a pretty stark contrast to the title change with Flair a couple of days later. It felt like a great performance from Jumbo, but it also felt like a good show of Kerry being able to do us stuff rather than just be dunder head.

The hard thing on Beefcake would be to show that he drew at all. Being Hogan's partner when the matches built around Hogan vs Opponent doesn't mean a great deal. That always felt like a favor from Terry to Brutus to get him a nice payday. Bulldogs vs Dream Team main evented a fair number of cards as the WWF were working 2-3 crews a night, but: * those matches weren't drawing Hogan Numbers There was the constant refrain in the WON that Hogan was piling up the numbers, and others were having problems drawing. Chris' number bear this out. * was Beefcake the draw in that? Bulldogs were the hot, pushed face team. It was a significant push, and the entire division was built around them. Valentine was fresh off being the IC champ when he got the tag belts. Beefcake... was kind of the goofy stiff teaming with Valentine. It didn't seem at the time that he was the one who was key in that group. Then on main eventing with Hogan... it didn't seem like one of Hogan's more major feuds. I always go back to Hogan breaking box office records in a fair number of towns with Kamala. Hogan drew with a lot of folks. Beefcake never stood out as a feud or draw of any note. Never even felt like the Hogan-Bossman feud, which did very good business. * * * * * Making drawing arguments can be fairly easy. I've used this example before, but here goes again. From 1988-91, All Japan ran 4 major Budokan cards each year on their 8 series they would run in a year. In 1992-94, they added one additional Budokan each year, having 7 of the 8 series climax in a major Budokan card. In 1998 they finally ran their own Tokyo Dome card, adding an 8th major card in the year. That's 4 additional major cards (PPV equivs) being added to the calendar across that time. Who was the one man chosen/trusted to main event every one of those expansion cards? Toshiaki Kawada. When the All Japan vs New Japan interpromotional feud finally took place, who was the man to headline all of the interpromtoional Tokyo Domes ran in the series? Toshiaki Kawada. Monster draw and card anchor? I love Kawada. It would be easy to craft an argument that makes him look great in that regard. But there's more it than how I just presented it. John

My use of "clear" was that JCP's expansion is clear to see and to point to when and where they went. They had some level of expansion in 1985, such as Philly. But a lot of it was GCW related. 1986 is their clear period of expanding significantly outside the old Mid Atlantic and GCW areas. Even stuff like Baltimore, where it looked like they expanded into in 1985, was really more PWUSA related. By early 1986, JCP cast aside PWUSA and made that their town, to good success. As far as how they managed it... that's something we've all talked about.

ECW is really hard to define. Started as a semi-indy, then moved to being a regional promotion, then was promoting pretty much up and down the East Coast and into MI, IN and OH while also having National TV. It wasn't terribly dissimilar from the AWA from 1986 to the end.

Sent.

Yeah... about as seamless as these things get. Pretty amazing job.

I didn't say I had "amazing powers of argumentation". Pretty much everyone else here that you've disagreed with has pointed out how wrong your are. Classic Jerry: looking for a reason to duck having to watch a match that you claimed was a carry job and were called on it. Outstanding. It's a 16 minute match, Jerry. In all the time you spent trying to defend your original statement and throwing a hissy fit, you could have watched the thing.

On the AWA and Expansion, I just don't think there was a major, focused push by them. Their key areas of expansion were places they moved into prior to Vince going national. I don't really see the Pro Wrestling USA as much of an expansion effort since it was multi promotional rather than just the AWA, and their biggest successes were thanks to the NWA participation. JCP's expansion is much more clear.

Osaka.

The big three were pretty small in 1980 --> 1990: Anchorage: 174,431 --> 226,338 Fairbanks: 53,983 --> 77,720 Juneau: 19,528 --> 26,751 That's the Metro for each, though Juneau wasn't a metro - that's the Borough number, as is the case for Fairbanks. That's too small of a number to put 5K in regularly, as would be the case for Fairbanks unless there was quite a fanbase. Anchorage would be a decent metro in a territory, though not a major one. John

The AWA never really expanded all that much in the Expansion Era. They moved into San Fran in 1982 when the local promotion went belly up. They were across the bay in Oakland the year before. Las Vegas was theirs in early 1983. It's likely that both were approved up by the NWA in general: they were open cities, and San Fran had a semi-loose affiliation with the AWA. KHawk can correct me, but I don't think the Expansion Era saw them make any major expansion by the AWA, and instead over time they contracted. The primary expansion promotions were the WWF start largely in 1984 with Hogan, and JCP in 1986. You'll find some JCP expansion in 1985, though more than half of that was simply adding the GCW areas. Their major push was 1986, which was also the peak of their expansion. As far as how the Sheets felt about the death of the territories, the fans in them weren't terribly happy. The vast majority of readers of the sheets in the 80s had grown into wrestling in the territory era. Over the course of the decade, they got to watch their local promotion decay and/or die. Those that remained by the end of 1989 were a shell of what they were before. My thought is that if one wants a feel for how people looked at it, recall what fans of ECW and WCW were thinking in 2000 and 2001 as their promotions were falling apart and then were just falt out dead. There are a fair number of fans of those two who quickly moved on from wrestling, and if they were sucked back in it was usually by something that played to their old fandom (such as folks who got into ROH and other indies). Of course that doesn't see like all those long ago to me... but looking at those years, I do see it was 12-13 years ago, and we're rapidly entering into an era where a lot of fans came into their fandom after WCW and ECW were dead. A bit like eventually hitting a point where the majority of fans were Post-Expansion Era with very little reference points to the Territorial Era.