jdw

He has a place in wrestling history. But "wrestling history" has largely never matter much to current fans. I don't know if John Cena Fans really care much about Macho Man beyond him popping up on some DVD's. We're not more than a decade past WCW dying. Macho hasn't been on regular TV for 13 years at this point. At some point, he's just the past. That's Macho. A much bigger star than Brody. Bob Backlund was a bigger star in the US than Brody, and got a PPV main event push in the 90s when he was well past his prime. I don't think he means anything to John Cena fans. That's wrestling history. Perhaps that's the way it's becoming with most stuff, and current fans of sports or movies don't care about or remember what happened in the 80s or earlier. Brody's legacy is among hardcores, within the business by his peers, and in Japan where they care a bit more about business. It's not likely to die out among either the first or the third of those groups. On the hardcore front, you have new hardcores watching him and thinking about his work without having the Old Consensus hanging over their head. You also have older fans like me who long ago (i.e. in the 90s) gave more thought about Brody's work and didn't really worry too much about what they previously thought of him. So you have a fair amount of hardcores who don't really feel like the "legacy" has any impact on how they look at his work. That's not going to stop Brody Fans from loving him, any more than critical thinking about Sayama is going to stop his fans from loving him. Sayama. And he's not forgotten in his own country.

Yep. The video business didn't think people wanted to own stuff, despite people paying a ton for Star Wars when it hit video and laser disc. One guesses they pawned that off on something special rather than there being a market for it. On the other hand, chains like Blockbuster and the others were signing up deals with the studios, so it felt like free money to the studios. Felt like DVD changed that, but it might have happened just before DVD? Yep... porn was often priced to move for consumers. There long was mail order, sale at porn stores, and other distribution. Though they probably weren't dealing with royalties with a lot of the performers: flat fee for a scene or scenes in a movie, and that's the end of paying Ginger and Tom Byron. After you pay costs, every sale is profit without royalties. I'm trying to remember what the two video Best of Starcade went for when originally put on sale. More than $30 since it was two tapes?

It is an oddity. Apparently, Evart and A & H Video Sales Representatives were the same company. They filed the trademark for Coliseum Video under the name A & H -- http://www.trademarkia.com/coliseum-video-73545435.html and were listed as such in the Ventura lawsuit -- http://caselaw.findlaw.com/us-8th-circuit/1387808.html On this early Coliseum release you can see them claiming the rights to the package design and summary -- http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i9/TheRe...xplosivetnt.jpg Later, they're listed as the copyright holder on some releases -- http://www.wrestlenewz.com/wp-content/uplo...sualMatches.jpg Yep. Look like on some of the early ones the claimed sole copyright, either by mistake in printing it, or in the WWF/Titan being slow on the uptake to get their own claims in. So Coliseum = Evart and A & H Video Sales Representatives. Strange that it took so long for Vince to cut them out, either to do it in house or move to some other license. Would assume that Coliseum/Evart took low enough cuts and/or their distribution was good enough for Vince and/or there just wasn't massive money in tapes for Vince. The Ventura ruling you point to gives some info: Jesse left the WWF in August 1990, filed suit in December 1991, and expert reports would have been a couple of years after that. Jesse was on most of the stuff produced from 1985 when they launched through 1990, all of the Manias from I to VI... $25M probably was the vast majority of the profit off sales through at least the end of 1990 with some legacy stuff being sold after that. Say an average of $4.3M a year from 1985-90, with it below that early on and comfortably above it towards the end. "Profit" isn't really "profit", because it's likely Hogan gets his cut after that number, etc: So Vince wasn't pocketing $4M+ without costs. But still... That's not a bad revenue stream. Not major relative to PPV or house shows, but not a bad extra bonus to toss to workers whenever Vince got around to paying them. John

The boa would be deadly in a shoot.

Wouldn't disagree with that. In turn, Madge by 1992/93 knew exactly who and where she was. She'd kind of been down the road of pop idol to pretty much an icon before those projects, with all the circus that Miley has. She didn't play any of it for laughs at her own expense, but not sure if she had to. If there was a joke, like popped up after "Vogue", she could point to #1 hit and Dick Tracy, etc. If Miley's career when she's 40 and it's what Madge's was through 40, and she's as in control of her life... more power to her and she'll warrant some kudos. Madonna was a bit older when fame hit her: 25/26 compared to 14. Not sure if age always matters, since plenty of 26 year olds (and older) have lost their head to fame. John

I think most of the ones that were taped were longer ones. The first MSG match, and the one in MLG were 9+ minutes. There was another one that I saw over the weekend, but haven't found quickly today. Andre was "losing" left and right that year. Hillbilly Jim, Duggan and even Jake got wins over him, though by DQ. Also lost a lot of tags as well. Sad end of the road for him, though they did give him the tag titles late in the year.

I don't recall anyone of note. Perhaps some Freebirds, though Hellwig may have headed to WCCW when the Birds where heading to UWF/Mid South. He was a face, so no Von Erich wins. I'm trying to remember any past their prime HOFers that may have passed through, but can't think of any. Abby wasn't one to do a lot of jobs at the time. John

Hennig was built up as a great worker before the internet had much of any wrestling talk. The WON and Torch and other newsletters loved him going back to his AWA Title reign, which was 1987. I don't think hardcore fans at the time were all that enamored with his Mr. Perfect gimmick, other than it got him a WWF push rather than getting buried in the prelims. I'd also extend it: Dave rambles on about how people in the business (read guys who came along in the past 15 or so years) looked at Hennig as a great worker. Likely because he was something they great up watching, and relative to the WWF he was a worker that "worker based" wrestlers would have liked. Much as in 15 years we'll have a bunch of guys in the business who think Punk and Cena are all time greats... which they may or may not be. The major reasons Beefcake doesn't get talked up is: * he sucked as a worker * he had no influence in the business (since being a sycophant had a long history in the business) * he never drew of note * he wasn't a real top of the card guy There basically is no case for him.

Not making the argument for him. I do believe that he was on the WON ballot at least once before dropping off. John

So they wanted Booker to top the World Title one? Hogan over their current top two guys and Trip? The US Title one looked like "we don't give a shit" and just tossed names out there. John

I see Jerome's next project: "TNA 2002-2006: The Jeff Jarret Years!"

That was extremely respectful, Dave. I think people could point you to discussions I had with Todd Martin (Shawn Michaels as a WON HOF Candidate) and Meltzer (Hash vs Ogawa) over on Wrestling Classics where I took something that they wrote and responded in detail to every line of their piece(s). I didn't do that to yours, and even when so far as calling it a good bio. It's a good, non-analytical piece. Responded to me with a data dump of Sasaki's dome shows and saying "you guys make up your own minds" without actually analyzing them tends to make the point. John

Given her current mode of tossing things our, I was thinking about this thread, and Loss' classic Madonna piece. Which led me to wonder what the over/under is before Miley has her Erotica (album released 10/20/92), Sex (book released 10/21/92) and Body of Evidence (movie released 01/15/93) multimedia trilogy? Books are pretty much old media, but Miley probably could move a ton of them like Madge did... or look for a more modern equiv of books to move or do it free which is as modern as you can get. Body of Evidence is also a bit old media given the era of sex tapes... which are themselves old at this point. Going for a modern on that beyond a intentionally "accidentally" released tape... not sure what that would be.

Of course Hodge is a "wrestler" who went into "pro wrestling". It's likely that Verne would have beaten Ezzard Charles if they had an MMA fight in 1952. We can find lots of people like that. But that's a different beast from a "pro wrestler" like Hogan.

I think we all know why he's popular. No one is questioning that. What people are questioning is whether he's a good worker. His murder really had nothing to do with it. On some level, it never has: Brody was thought of as a great worker by the consensus even before he got killed. Maybe there are Brody fans from back in those days who feel invested in defending his "worker honor" because he died, but that seems unlikely. Similar people defend the worker honor of Sayama, or are folks you can't have a conversation with about Flair. Which is entirely different from say Dylan or Loss who you can have a discussion with on Flair, and I'm confident that if someone wants to point to some bad work of Kawada in the 90s, I'd take a look at it and give it some thought... frankly might agree. Which, when looking at his work, I don't think his critics worry about. They're just looking at his work. Except... He surprisingly meant little to much of pro wrestling. He meant a lot in Japan. In the US, he meant nothing in the Expansion Era since he didn't work for the WWF or JCP, which is where most people watched. He didn't mean as much to WCCW or Georgia fans as the Freebirds because he didn't work either that much in the truly hot days, where as the Birds were anchors for very hot stretches. In ranking the big deals in the AWA when it was hot, Brody was just a passing train in the night. So for a lot of Expansion Era fans, Brody doesn't mean much: he wasn't on TV like Honkytonk Man. In the Monday Night Wars were where we got our next wave of fans, Brody didn't mean anything: he had been dead for 7+ years. The current post-Wars era? He means nothing to the fans watching on TV. He really only means something to a small number of fans, who are either older fans who happened to watch him, or match collectors... with there being some of both. Since he really didn't work as widely as say an NWA Champ like Harley Race, or stay in the WWWF/WWF long, or have a major run in the AWA like say Patterson & Stevens did... the folks who saw him isn't all that huge. Other than Japan, and arguably PR in a morbid way, Brody just isn't as big of a historical figure as folks think in this country. I hate to say it, but Edge was a bigger star in this country than Brody... and I'm no advocate of Edge in anyway. So what are people in a thread like this left with? His matches, and his mic work if they care to discuss that.

This is a hoot. I think they got the answer they didn't want to get in both big polls: http://www.wwe.com/shows/nightofchampions/...mpions-26148649

Rock does a hell of a job getting "tossed" back into the cage by Bulldog. Doesn't even seem to protect himself flying back down. It's a good one, but the Davey Boy stuff... just went on for every rather than a short thing to add to the match. Felt like them trying to figure out how to book it to make Rock look strong despite losing, then went over the top with it.

That was my point: Martel would be marginal, but those other three are as well.

The "offense" in this section is mostly made possible by Rude. With the exception of the lariat and the striking move, these moves are made by the sell not the delivery. I'm at a loss on how a Lariat is any different from a Double Axe Handle Off The Top when it comes to selling. Or a pair of vertical suplexes. Or in the sense of pondering, is Flair's Eternal Suplex something cool that Ric does... or it it all the credit in the world to the face for taking it? I mean... I know the opponent needs to go up for it, but it is Ric's spot and something cool he does. Except that... as lots of people have pointed out here when rewatching WWF stuff and stuff from elsewhere in the 80s... Rude wasn't putting out classic matches on a regular basis (or even ever) prior to the match with Warrior. It's actually the moment where people tend to point to as Rick Getting Good. That's not to say he doesn't have some good matches before that here and there. I like his match with Tito in Boston more than most, and his match with Hogan more than most (though most of the match is bullshit at the start). There are some folks who like one of his matches with Jake, but the comments usually put it over as a Jake Match, and occasionally are folks who like Jake quite a bit anyway. There's generally one Ragin' & Rude match folks point to, and it's generally for one of the great Ricky Morton Bring Ricky Morton performances of all-time. So... it really isn't like people thought Rude was Macho Man prior to this match. It goes both ways.

It was 1 of 11 groupings of things that I listed for Warrior in that segment. Not exactly what I'd hang my hat on. Did Rude sell well in the section? Sure. I highlighted some of it that was that was quite strong just to get across that Warrior wasn't working with a broom. Rude wasn't doing 90% of the work in that section. He was, at most, doing 50% of the work. Did it well. My point was when I wrote that long thing, and now, that Warrior surprisingly held up his end of the bargain to a degree that the "Rude Had The Greatest Carry Job In WWF History" notion wasn't true. It's a notion that I had before rewatching it, and simply found completely lacking after the rewatch. And this typifies literally everything I've ever said in response to you. Rather than watch the match to make a reasoned reponse, you pull shit out of your ass that isn't correct. I get why you can't stomach a discussion with me: I point out where you're wrong, you try to bullshit your way through it rather than admitting you're wrong, I point out that your new bullshit is wrong, wash, rinse, repeat until you go running out of the thread without admitting your wrong. Yeah... that must be hard to stomach. It really beats the heck out of me why you "bowed back in" to offer nothing.

I think everyone in the WWF has been mentioned: HOFer's Race Dibiase Hogan Savage Heenan Undertaker HHH Vader Lawler HOF Candidates Valentine Rude Hennig Slaughter Owen Tully (with the Horsemen) I think a lot of us like Rick Martel, but I'm not sure if people would count him in the HOF Candidates list. Then again, some of them like Owen, Rude and even Hennig are pretty marginal candidates.

Dunn is 52. I don't think any of us see Vince stepping aside in the next few years unless he drops dead: his whole life is the WWE. So Dunn will be closer to retirement time by the time Vince steps aside. Basil is in his late 50s, and will likely be close to retirement when Vince leaves as well. Not that anyone should cry for Dunn. He's listed in the public filings as having made $17,066,077 in compensation from FY2001 through FY2012, including $2.57M last year. That also likely under reports the amount, given the way stock options/grants are handled.

That would be Headhunter B for you, sir. B ! B ! B ! B ! B ! B ! B ! B ! I member being in Korakuen and fans yelling that.

The draw was: 1. Choshu's Retirement 2. New Japan's traditional January Dome show (still a powerful draw at that point) I'm not going to say Sasaki-Mutoh meant nothing. But "IWGP Defense" meant more than "Sasaki", and Mutoh as challenger likely meant more than Sasaki as the holder. He just wasn't that over as Champ, especially not remotely close to the guy who had it before him... or the guy before that... or the guy before that... or the guy before that. Big drop off. I'll take two examples of what I mean by lack of analysis: * There is no attempt to explain what if anything the Hase-Sasaki period with the title meant, or what that era of the title meant in general for the belt. * There is no attempt to explain or think about what the Hellraisers period of the title meant They're just "title reigns", "title changes" and "title matches" in the piece. And that pretty much ties into my comment that "Sasaki will eventually get in. His "success" is a list of stuff, and it's easier to grasp a list of titles and cards that it looks like he drew on than it is to wade into the depth." :/ It's a data dump. We talked about Sasaki's dome matches back when Chris posted data, walking through all of them to provide additional analysis rather than a dump. It's a bit like a data dump showing Hansen & Spivey vs Gordy & Williams as the "main event" of the 12/07/90 Budokan because they went on last. Are they really the main event? Are they what moved the tickets? No: 1. All Japan Tag League 2. Misawa & Kawada vs Jumbo & Taue (first at Budokan and rematch off a 45 minute draw two months earlier) People just looking at results, not really understanding what was going on in All Japan at the time... maybe it looks like Hansen & Spivey vs Gordy & Williams is the main event. :/ Sasaki has that... a lot of that, pretty much throughout his career. John

I thought late 1998 through Mania was perfectly fine. Rock getting the belt screwing over Austin, Rock-Austin (with the exception of the chairshot match), Austin-Vince, then the Rock-Austin build into Mania which everyone was waiting for since the night after Survivors... that was all solid-to-strong top of the card booking. Hell, I loved the Austin-Vince stuff at the Rumble, and I typically hate Rumble matches. Their cage match was a blast of WWE-spectactle stuff and Vince willing to take an epic ass kicking. Plus the climax at Mania of Austin getting the belt back. The rest of the card? Pretty forgettable. But I thought the booking and storylines at the top in that run from November to Mania might have been the strongest they had in the entire attitude era: they elevated Rock to the very top level, they elevated Mick to an entirely different level, they had a sense of what their top match was (Rock-Austin), teased it on Raw the night after Survivors and figured out how to keep the two apart until the final cycle leading into Mania with their own strong storylines (Rock with Foley and Austin taking his feud with Mr. McMahon to a cage match payoff). In the more modern era of having to not only feed content to a full slate of 12 PPV a year, and also feed content to keep weekly TV ratings up, that's high on the list of them feeding both those things just about perfectly.