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What were are talking about is that *if* Sting ended up in the WWF in 1987 almost as an after thought like he ended up in JCP in 1987, "Vince and Pat of 1987 would have recognized this and pushed him and booked him accordingly." They were quite receptive to someone getting over with the fans. Look at Razor Ramon and Undertaker. Look even at Diesel as the bodyguard for Shawn. Vince and Pat didn't foresee how big those guys would get when they debuted. No one said he did. Put he was pushed as a Power Guy, even while Lex was in the same promotion. And he got over with the fans every bit as much as Lex did. He and Lex spent four year vying/sharing the same spot. Put the bong down. Sting isn't Jericho. Warrior's "spot" was the #2 Babyface to Hogan. It's one that Sting easily could have stepped into as well as Warrior did. Frankly better since he did everything better than Warrior other than give Vince a Muscle Boner.

What happened is what happened. So why don't we delete all the fantasy booking since it isn't what happened. It's circular and gets us nowhere. Ted was in the UWF when it was sold. He was in it while the sale was being negotiated. Even after the sale, he stuck around before heading to Vince as the heel turn comment was posted above (and there even was Ted on commentary of Doc's arm getting "broken"). My comment was/is on getting to Ted before he even thinks about talked to Vince. I mean... if Vince had a massive boner for him, he could have signed him at the same time he was chasing Duggan. He didn't. I suspect no hardcores in 1987 thought anything about Gang, and didn't care that he left. If they cared about anything, it was that Bubba leaving wasn't a good sign for JCP (nor was Rude leaving while being WTT champ). There isn't much of an indicated that JCP gave a shit about Gang either. They quickly got the belt onto Bubba, which is pretty much a slap at Gang. In turn... JCP did happen to keep Sting, give him a push, and eventually turn him (Sting joining Adams in the feud against Taylor & Gilbert). So the evidence tends to indicate that JCP care more about Sting than another big fat guy. That's not inconsistent with Dusty: he didn't seem to push a lot of fatboy heels at the top... or even in the middle... or even in the prelims. He pushed Kamala very briefly for one big match, then pitched him. The other one he pushed was Bubba, which at the merge came at the expense of Gang. Doesn't say much for what he thought of Gang. And yes... I know about Bigelow. That really smacked of desperation when the company was in the tank and people were leaving left and right. I tend to think that if you look at the love of Fatboys by Vince & Pat in the 1985-88 period vs Dusty's, it's not even close. Perhaps Dusty wanted the fatboy genre to himself, even if he didn't play Fat Monster. Anyway... On Doc vs Sting, you're talking apples and oranges. Sting was a cheap prospect. Think Rey Jr. in 1996. Doc and Ted were main eventers, making main event money. Think Kevin Nash and Shawn Michaels. In 1996, I'd rather have Shawn (Ted) over Nash (Doc). That doesn't mean I can't also get Rey (Sting), nor does it mean that in getting Rey that I think Rey is going to make me more money than Nash would. Only that I want Shawn badly, would rather spend on him than Nash, and Rey is sitting out there for next to nothing so why don't I take a flyer on the prospect as well. What you're arguing about... I never said. Nor implied. Thought my breaking down of talent into buckets was explicitly clear.

Eddie Gilbert did. Pre Clash. But he was probably the only one. So why was Sting getting World Title matches against Flair 10 days after Starcade 1987, which is three months before the Clash? Gilbert didn't book that. Dusty did. These weren't title shots in Albany, GA, either. Charlotte, Houston, Greensboro, Cincinnati, Philadelphia, St. Louis and Chicago. The first NWA Pro of 1988? Two weeks later, it was Arn & Tully vs Barry & Sting on World Wide. The gate crashing with Sting challenging Flair was a couple of weeks after that. They knew fairly quickly what they had. Again, Dusty is booking all this. He saw something in 1987 and kept upping Sting's push as the year went along.

Ric worked face in 1983, he worked as a face in JCP after that, and he would work as face again in 1989. Some of his best business was as a face. If it's for a storyline like vs Race in 1983 and Funk in 1989, he could do it... and do it GREAT in angles and storylines. The "belt" thing... I'll keep repeating this: Garvin was getting the belt, and would drop it back to Flair on the same exact day that Ted did. Just in a lesser match with no real emotional payoff (unless it was the fans being thankful that Ron's useless reign was over... which is a BAD THING for the Belt and title). Ted isn't really taking his spot. It's a freaking storyline, and you go in with Ric knowing that he'll turn back when Lex is turned. Which was always a plan: Lex to work with the Horsemen and learn the ropes a bit more, then turn face. This just extends it our another 3-6 months before the turn. Rather than right after Starcade, pushed into sometime in early 1988 when Flair's run at the Top Face (at that point a Face Champ) runs out and needs to go back to being the Top Heel (and at that point the Heel Champ).

"Good" really isn't relevant in the WWF. Warrior got pushed, and he sucked. Not just work, but in promos and in charisma. Stink was a better worker, better on the mic, and had more charisma. Warrior had a great "Vince Look", which I don't even want to call a "WWF Look" since the number of wrestlers who looked like Warrior and drew money for Vince is exactly... ZERO. Even Hogan in 1984-88 didn't look like Warrior. We need to note that Sting *did* have a great look: no one ever has said he looked like Adonis... or even Arn... or Bret. Bodywise, he was bigger than Savage in his 1986-89 prime before Randy later lost his mind on the juice. Savage had other elements that made for a great "look", but Sting with the blond hair stood out from the other face paint Road Warrior Clones. Seriously... other than give Vince a muscled headed boner and have a far better promotion behind him, what did Warrior do better than Sting? I can't think of anything. And I'm far from the biggest Sting Fan around. But if you tossed him in Warrior's spot, he would have more than held up his end... and frankly been an easier person for the WWF to send around promoting the company (like they did with Hulk and Randy). He had no idea until he talked to Vince. At which point the magic words, "Pushed Against Hogan" are really the only things that mattered. You've missed my point: Take Vince the fuck out of it. Ted didn't meet with Vince before JCP and Watts started negotiating. If I'm negotiating with Watts, I tell Bill something early: "I can't do a deal without locking up Ted. He's your ace, and he'd be the key for us. We need to bring him in and talk to him, the both of us, and get him to commit." Of course it needs to be secret because the whole JCP-Watts thing was. But if Ted is the key for you (as he is for me - he's the only freaking person who is a MUST for me in the entire UWF), then you work with Watts to bring him in. And once in, you stone cold lock him down. "Ric... after Barry we've got Brad, Jimmy Garvin and a re-run with Ronnie for you the rest of the year. We're going to try a PPV at Starcade like Mania, so we're going to need you to drop it to Ronnie so you can challenge at Starcade to win it back. Well... yeah... business is already down early this year, but that's all were really have lined up for your this year. Since you get paid on what the gates are, it's going to be a down year in pay relative to out hot year last year. Well... we do have this other idea. We have the chance to sign DiBiase. Rather than dropping the title to Ronnie, we have a chance to do this. You drop it to Ted. To have your challenging at Starcade really pack some power, like back in 1983, we should go with you as the face, and Ted being the heel like he was several years ago in Mid South. Yeah, he was a pretty good heel. The Carolina fans coming out to see you get the Gold back again. Well... we have another idea to really give it power. We can have Arn, Tully, JJ and Lex turn on you and Ted not only take the title, but your place in the Horsemen. Tully screws you over like he did with Dusty last year. That let's us run matches with you and prior to Starcade while Ted defends against other faces like Dusty, Barry and Nikita. That saves your matches with Ted to go around the horn after Starcade, where we can run another angle where your out for vengeance demanding cage matches to keep the Horsemen out while you get your hands on Ted. As a face, you're something of a Lone Wolfe because off all the years of things you've done to Dusty, Nikita, Barry, the Rock 'n' Roll and everyone. Slowly some come to your side against the Horsemen. When we've run our course on that, we can turn you back, probably around the time we turn Lex face out of the Horsemen for a big push." The first two are likely all you need to convince Ric. He's going to lost the title anyway to Ronnie, and Ric is going to know that's not a Starcade main event. You play to him to be getting the belt back in NC, and being the face to the crowd. He also likely knows it's a big money match, while matches with Brad, Jimmy and Ronnie are... sucky. There's money to be made here, and money was already down in early 1987 even with Flair-Barry. They needed something hot, and you're giving Ric the NWA Angle Of The Year... and it's a freaking huge one. Like Ron Garvin did politics? He was an old outlaw wrestler. Ron had the title from Sep-25-1987 through Nov-26-1987, a total of 62 days. What I'm proposing is Ted having it from roughly Jul-11-1987 (the big Greensboro card) through Nov-26-1987, a total of 138 days. It's only twice as long. I *might* be tempted to run it in June so that the Bash could be booked and sold with Ted as champ rather than trying to re-work it faux "on the fly" and try to sell that hard on TV. It doesn't leave much time for people to decide to go. So Ted would have the belt between 138 days and say 166 days (either 6/13/87 in Baltimore or the next night in Charlotte). The Freebirds promo first aired on May 16 on TBS. JJ was pimping Horsemen vs Birds on the June 7 Omni card (JCP ran Greensboro the night before)... another pair of cards for the potential first title change. The Birds weren't on TBS until June 6. I think I'd try to get Ted in before that, and try to lay some minor hints of the Horsemen wondering about Ric, and someone (be it JJ or Tully) making some comments about Ted not being one of those young guns who someday might be a world champion, but someone who right now is world champion level and the Horsemen all need to be on their toes. Might be good to keep Ric off TBS that first time Ted shows up. Don't even bother having Ted wrestle, just an inteview putting him over as major. JJ can come out, put him over, but give the proper "The Horsemen are an entire different group than you're use to dealing with" warning. Etc. Anyway... we're not talking about Ted being Champ for a hell of a lot longer than Ronnie. We're basically replicating what Race did in 1983: Jun/Jul through Starcade. Then giving Ted a tail of additional cage match main events around the horn with Flair after Starcade for a little "Starcade On Tour" action. Again, we're not luring him away from Vince. We're hooking him before Vince. It's not like Vince had a meeting with him in December 1986 to steal him. That's the question in any fantasy booking, which ends in a Zero Sum game: Dusty did what Dusty did, so why should we bother coming up with alternatives. As far as in this scenario, Dusty gets another ride chasing the World Title: challenges against Ted. You also can either having him be the first to come to Ric's help (which I wouldn't, but maybe that works for Dusty's ego), or you have him being the Big Last Guy to Join Hands with Ric (which storyline works better... and might just be even better for Dusty's ego since everyone would be waiting for "What's Dusty Going To Do"?). There's lots of big matches for Dusty in this. Ric was going to lost the World Title anyway. He wins it back at the exact some point. In the place of matches with Jimmy Garvin and Ron Garvin, he gets them against Tully and Ted and the rest of the Horsemen. Rather than a silly angle with Precious and the Garvins, he gets the biggest angle in JCP since Flair & Arn & Ole broke Dusty's leg. When the time is right, Ric flips back to heel... lining up perfectly for when Lex is turned face for a run against Ric. I'm at a loss on how one needs to placate Ric in this. It's a storyline that will make him more money that he did in 1987, with a better storyline, and a hot issue for Starcade.

Oh... I totally agree about Dusty, and even mentioned in one of the posts about Dusty pushing Dusty's Wrestlers. Anyone surprised in hindsight that the Birds bombed out of JCP without Dusty giving them any push of note, while Hayes was split off into a singles to fade for much of 1987? Dusty only went to him after Starcade when he was short on options, and it was Sting and Hayes splitting the workload opposite Flair. Dusty wouldn't make Ted the world champ. He wouldn't turn Flair face. Dusty wouldn't run a JCP vs UWF feud were the UWF was put over strong enough for people to go from not giving a shit about the UWF to actually buying into the feud. So if we're going to limit our Fantasy Booking on what could have Done Business to simply what Dusty Would Have Done while he was running the company into the ground in 1987... then there's only one form of Fantasy Booking: Exactly What Happened Because that's all Dusty would do. But if we're going beyond that... then signing Ted is fair game. We take Dusty out of the equation, you tell Ted he's going to be NWA Champ, you lay out a two year road map for him, you drop a contract in him for the minimum he's going to be paid, and you have Flair talk to him about how much he's looking forward to working with him in the big matches/angles... then I think you can sign him.

WWF @ Minneapolis, MN - Met Center - June 17, 1984 (11,000) WWF World Champion Hulk Hogan pinned David Schultz with a clothesline after the challenger missed a top rope move; after the bout, Schultz hit the champion several times with the belt before Hogan eventually cleared the ring and regained his title belt; Okerlund was the guest ring announcer for the match (Hulkamania) WWF @ Minneapolis, MN - Met Center - August 26, 1984 (13,000) WWF World Champion Hulk Hogan & Gene Okerlund defeated George Steele & Mr. Fuji (w/ Jesse Ventura) at 10:21 when Okerlund pinned Fuji after Hogan slammed his parnter onto Fuji and then pushed down on top of him during the cover; Jesse Ventura sat ringside for the match; after the bout, Ventura argued with the referee over the call and briefly faced off against Hogan until Hogan & Okerlund cleared the ring of Steele & Fuji (Best of the WWF Vol. 1, Hulk Still Rules) We also are missing attendance data for a lot of the cards, and Kris focused on the Hogan stuff earlier in the thread. I don't doubt that there's a grain of truth in what Greg is saying... but I don't believe it simply because Greg is saying it. It's not hard to find examples of him talking bullshit about the *business* side of the business. It's Kevin's comments that carry more weight. That said: * the WWF did draw good crowds in the Twin Cities on occasion in the summer * there are probably several more that we simply don't know of because of the lack of results/attendance numbers * Hogan-Pipper in a singles was a Huge Match in the WWF in 1985... actually their Biggest * that's a number that the WWF would have thought was total shit rather than looking for an excuse I don't think the third point needs to be explained. It's a match the WWF never blew off on TV, or came close to blowing off. It's almost certain that the WWF was gobsmacked by drawing that little for their biggest match there. The WWF was up and down. There doesn't always have to be an explanation for everything. Both the WWF and AWA ran on Thanksgiving. Hogan vs Savage wasn't really even a major focused feud at that time. It's a sign of how over he got, and how quickly, that they were popping big gates around the horn. In turn, despite the push... it's quite possible that Bundy wasn't as over as Vince thought. Which may be the reason the rematch didn't pop.

Now I don't disagree that with hindsight losing Sting would have been a disaster for Crockett. But I really doubt Sting becomes a big deal in the WWF in that era. Sting would have bombed in WWF. I see no reason to think he becomes anything bigger than Owen Hart in the late 80's. He's exactly the kind of worker who at that point Vince would have either fucked up outright, or just killed off feeding him to monsters. People would have laughed for years at how Warrior got pushed over this guy, but I still see that happening. Warrior is nuts and can't string coherent sentences together, so saying "Sting can't talk" seems harsh, but Warrior's rambling hooked people for whatever reason. Sting at that point trying to promo in the WWF would have been awful. I really don't see Sting faring well if he'd gone to Vince instead of to Crockett. I don't disagree with the basic premise that you want Sting. I do think the idea that he'd have taken Warrior's spot is hard for me to believe. If Sting jumped to the WWF in April 1988 coming off the Clash, he would have been a huge star if Vince decided to push him hard. Warrior was feuding with Herc. Vince was pushing the shit out of him, but it hadn't reached overdrive yet. Of course Warrior as a musclehead fit more into Vince's vision of pro wrestling than Sting did. Just saying: if Sting went there, and the WWF chose to give him the push that they did Warrior, Sting would have gotten over just as much, and sustained it better than Warrior. Hell... Warrior was already bombing after he got the title.

Duggan was a valuable guy. He flat out had charisma. The WWF turned it more cartoonish, be he got over well there. Other things being equal, I would be happy to add Hacksaw to Ted in JCP. The problem I keep hitting on: he had a boner for the WWF, one that Vince tickled mightily despite being under a locked up contract with Watts, and he become such a pain in the ass to be around that Watts felt the need to tell his Top Babyface to get the fuck out of town. A Face that he pretty much knew he couldn't replace, and within three months Bill was out of business. That's one major pain in the ass. He wasn't one in the WWF because that's exactly where he wanted to be. :/ I just don't have any confidence that he would have been happy in the JCP. Ted is a bit different. I don't think Ted knew how happy and how pushed he'd be in the WWF until the shit happened. If you're JCP and you're able to get to him instantly with a Plan ("Ted... we're making you NWA Champ!" + Main Event Money), you might be able to forestall him seeing if Vince had something for him. If you get him in, and he gets happy... you might never need to worry about him going to the WWF (i) while you're pushing him at the upper part of the cards, and (ii) while JCP isn't going out of business. Ted just seems the 100% most obvious guy that you talk to the second Bill agrees to sell. You call him, explain the plan, and have a new contract for him to sign Right Now. Granted... I never would have bought the UWF. I would have let it die, or let Vince buy it. I would have instead picked off those people that I listed above. Vince wasn't going to sign the Birds. Eddie was too small. I think Steiner flew under his radar. Taylor was out there for a long time before Vince signed him in the middle of 1988, and even then he didn't seem to have a clue over Terry being a solid midcard (undercard in the WWF) heel. With Sting... Vince certainly had the chance to grab him throughout the UWF's life, and in the transition. It would be interesting to figure out when JCP signed him to a multi-year contract. Anyway, of you let the UWF die or hoped Vince would waste money on it, Sting would have been available for them to sign as a prospect.

Okay... let's think about that: #1 - it takes Bubba away from Cornette That's a very bad idea. #2 - Road Warriors vs Gang & Bubba The Road Warriors tended to have shittier matches than usual against Big Fat Guys. Their series with Quake & Tugboat was essentially the death of them in the WWF: the Roadies can't do all their Cool Power Shit with Big Fat Motherfuckers. So it's a waste: you want guys who can bump and sell for the LOD. #3 - R'n'R vs Gang & Bubba Did the R'n'R ever have a great sustained feud in Mid South or JCP with Big Fat Guys? I don't recall a sustained one. Their best in that era (you know... the era when they actually drew shitloads of fans) was against crafty, nasty heels who could southern tag with the R'n'R but then stooge and bump their asses off when it was time for the R'n'R's spots. #4 - Dusty & Nikita vs Gang & Bubba I don't see anything good out of that. If I had room for a Fat Guy, I wanted Bubba in 1986... 1987... and every point after that. Of course I'm not the mark for Big Fat Fuckers like other people are.

I wanted to like him. I found him flat for much of his matches. I found the crowd just not clicking for him as much as others. I found his ability to work the crowd to be mediocre relative to others. That's on JCP house show cards in 1987. The boredom people had over him at Starcade wasn't an exception. :/ As a worker, I never thought he was terribly interesting until 1993 when Gordy overdosed. Not going to say he was shit, or that he didn't have moments. But he was generally flat for me. He became very good when Gordy went out, and by the 1994 Carny series he was flat out great. It wasn't because Kawada or Kobashi or Misawa were making him look good. He had a smarter, better match than any of those three against Akiyama in the Carny, and it really was Doc being terrific that made it a good match.

You're confusing the point. Ted, Doc and Gang were all UWF main eventers making main event money. Given these choices: A. Ted B. Doc C. Gang jdw would select Ted. Easily. JCP selected Doc. They made no money off Doc. Vince selected Ted and Gang. It's debatable that he made any money off Gang. His run with Hogan wasn't strong relative to others. He then was nothing more than a mid carder. I don't see the need in JCP for a midcarder like Gang, nor do I expect him to stick around as a midcarder if Vince dangled a run against Hogan in front of him. Vince made a good money off Ted. Damn good money. Given those three choices, I think anyone in JCP's position at the time would be crackers to take Gang or Doc over Ted. Some here may disagree, but I sure as hell would like to here how they think JCP could make more money off either of them than Ted. If we want to think more about Gang, I would see the choices as: A. Gang B. Bubba And I would have taken Bubba, easily. Ironically, Vince took both... and made a hell of a lot more money off Bubba than Gang. I didn't envision that level of stardom for Bubba, but I did like him considerably more than Gang in 1986 and 1987 as a person on the roster. Admittedly, Gang always bored the living shit out of me, while I always dug Bubba after the spot when Dusty clocked him in the skull with the chair and Bubba no sold it. As far as Sting, he's not a choice relative to those two. He's something different. Sting was a UWF midcarder, a young one, making UWF midcard money. As was Steiner. I'm picking them over a pain in the ass like Chris Adams. I'm picking them over that slew of shitty talent that I labeled "Garbage". The non-main event talent that I wanted was Taylor (as a heel if anyone in JCP was smart enough to see it), Gilbert (who I always liked as a mid-card anchor), and Sting & Steiner as prospects. The first time I saw Sting live was in September 1987 at the Forum: He was more over that Doc... frankly, since he was fresh and got to do all the cool stuff for his team, he was more over than Nikta. This isn't terribly complex. I'm not looking at it in hindsight. I'm looking at it how I did then.

I liked him in UWF in 1986. Did I think he had the potential to be a #1 babyface? No. But I liked him better than Barbarian and Teijo Khan and Warlord and Dingo Warrior in the Road Warrior Rip Off genre that was popping up. I thought he might be able to graduate out of it, drop the face paint and become a good heavy. That's why I used the term "prospect". He struck me as a good prospect in 1986, at a time when the others struck me as mediocre LOD clones. Of course Dingo did better than expected, but that was with Vince behind him rather than Hellwig having any talent (which he didn't). As far as the draw with Flair, people knew he had potential before that. His real coming out at Starcade where he was strongly over on the undercard. That opened up people's eyes. They saw enough potential in him that he got his first NWA Title shot against Flair just 10 days later... in Charlotte. He also got title shots in key battleground cities of Philly and Chicago... before 1987 was out. The Clash was actually well into Sting's push against Flair.

There really wasn't anything to cherry pick out of Central States. With CWF, they cherry picked it before they bought it: Barry and Lex. Buying Central States was just stupid. With CWF, one would have to look at the deal to figure out what they paid vs what they got. The only thing of value that I think they could have gotten would be contracts for running buildings... but if CWF died, those buildings would have been wide open anyway. It's a cost issue. Gang at his peak as a worker means... what? You're not going to work him at the top of the card against Flair. A Nikita vs Gang feud goes nowhere. Gang vs Dusty... Dusty tended to want to work with guys who bumped for him. Gang vs Barry goes nowhere. Finding someone to work as his partner... eh. He just has little value at the top of the card, or in the upper half. He's not going to stick around to be a mid-carder, and you don't really have mid-card faces for him. In the other direction... Vince offered him a shot against Hogan. Which he got, but it didn't exactly set the world on fire because even WWF fans didn't care that much about him relative to the guys who really got over. Beyond that, keeping and pushing Gang takes up the Fat Guy spot that Bubba could evolve into... and Bubba had more potential at that point than Gang. On Doc... he just wasn't over. He couldn't get himself over. It's kind of telling that his "most over" period in the US came when he was the #4 guy in the Varsity club. Not #4 in terms of protection, but in terms of storyline: Sully was the mouthpiece, Steiner got to be goofy (and got OVER), while Mike was the glue guy. To keep Doc, they paid him money that could have been spent on keeping Ted. I don't see how anyone could think that Doc was more valuable than Ted at that point.

Understood. More along the lines of the prior Hogan appearance: Hogan-Piper several months after Mania, drawing "4,500". That one doesn't make a lot of sense. Savage in November 1985 wasn't as big of a star as Piper yet, but attendance went up 11K? I can see the WWF doing poorly on non-Hogan shows, as they do that into 1986 and 1987. But 4500 for Piper-Hogan and 4K for Hogan-Bundy (who had the big push leading up to Mania) sandwiching around that 15K for Hogan-Savage on Thanksgiving... doesn't that strike anyone else as odd? Conforms to the pattern Greg outlines with attendences being down in the summer and up in the winter. Quirk of the area. Except that the Hogan-Bundy that I mentioned was in January: Minneapolis, MN - Met Center - July 21, 1985 (4,000) WWF World Champion Hulk Hogan defeated Roddy Piper Minneapolis, MN - Met Center - November 28, 1985 (15,000; near sell out) WWF World Champion Hulk Hogan (w/ Mr. T) pinned Randy Savage (w/ Bobby Heenan) Minneapolis, MN - Met Center - January 20, 1986 (4,500) WWF World Champion Hulk Hogan defeated King Kong Bundy Minneapolis, MN - Met Center - August 17, 1986 (11,500) Paul Orndorff defeated WWF World Champion Hulk Hogan St. Paul, MN - Civic Center - November 2, 1986 (10,409) WWF World Champion Hulk Hogan defeated Paul Orndorff St. Paul, MN - Civic Center - February 8, 1987 (13,383) Hercules defeated WWF World Champion Hulk Hogan I'd buy the theory, exception: * It doesn't fit Hogan-Bundy * Hogan-Piper was rather big July 21, 1985 was a Sunday in the Summer... so maybe everyone in the Twin Cities was up to something else. Then again, Hogan drew poorly opposite Ventura in March 1985 as well.

Looking at the talent that appeared on UWF TV from January through early April, here's what we have including some JTTS (like Gaylord) but not the pure jobbers (like Boyette): Angel of Death Bill Irwin Buddy Roberts Chavo Guerrero Chris Adams Eddie Gilbert Eli the Eliminator Fantastics (left the promotion in January) Gary Young Iceman Parsons Jack Victory Jeff Gaylord Jim Duggan (left the promotion in January) Michael Hayes Mike George Missing Link One Man Gang Rick Steiner Sam Houston Savannah Jack Steve Cox Steve Williams Sting Ted Dibiase Terry Gordy Terry Taylor The Super Ninja The Viking Good lord... the talent was worse than I recalled. :/ Breaking it down: Garbage - Little Value Angel of Death Bill Irwin Eli the Eliminator Gary Young Iceman Parsons Jack Victory Jeff Gaylord Mike George Missing Link Sam Houston Savannah Jack Steve Cox The Super Ninja The Viking I might take the most useful one or two of these guys to replace a prelimer or two in JCP that was a pain in the ass, or left, or just needed replacing. But I would look on the cheap end rather than anyone wanting serious money, and avoid the pains in the ass. Gone From UWF Fantastics (left the promotion in January) Jim Duggan (left the promotion in January) The Fans were in Dallas, so of course I would try to get them at some point. I certainly would have run MX vs Fans in 1987 rather than going to the well with MX vs R'n'R again. I also would have gone after the Midnight Rockers when they bombed in the WWF, turned them heels (the anti-R'n'R) and had some fun R'n'R & Fans vs MX & Midnight Rockers actions. Duggan... I would just treat as out of hand. Prelim Level in JCP - No Use Chavo Guerrero Not anything major for JCP. Asshole - Let Walk Chris Adams Good Prospects - Sign Rick Steiner Sting Very Useful Midcarders - Sign Eddie Gilbert Terry Taylor Main Event Talent I'd Let Walk One Man Gang Steve Williams I just think they're of limited long term value. I would *only* sign Doc if it was a make/break with Ted: he was willing to stay with the major push we intended for him, and he wanted his pal Doc to stay. But I'm not entirely sure he was that massive of a best pal with Doc. It's not like he ever got Doc into the WWF, and Doc worked for NJPW rather than AJPW. So... let them walk. Freebirds Buddy Roberts Michael Hayes Terry Gordy I would push the shit out of them and treat them as a massive impact "signing" by JCP. Key thing: they gotta win early and often. Make others chase them rather than them being total chicken shit heels. Major Main Eventer - Sign at all costs! Ted Dibiase And we talked about Ted. Sadly, there it doesn't look like there's any other talent in the UWF to lift than the guys we talked about earlier. I also think it tends to support my notion of not wasting time on a JCP vs UWF feud. There isn't depth there, and it just distracts from bigger things: Ted getting the world title, the Birds feuding with anyone we can line up against them, working long term on Sting and Rick, cultivating Taylor as a heel, and finding a good long term role for Eddie as a useful midcarder. Take Eddie. I think he's a far more useful person at that point than Paul Jones. You could easily build a stable with him as the mouthpiece of it... since that's exactly what he did in UWF. Depending on composition, it could be garbagey against a Valiant (though I'd be phasing Jimmy out in 1987), or less so against the likes of the R'nR (such as Sting & Steiner). Eddie can get in there and work as well. Rather than try to develop Eddie in a "Invasion feud" where he's a subplot, I'd rather just have him be his own plotline within JCP and not worry about him coming to the Birds rescue. I think there's also other talent out there. The Fans and the Midnight Rockers are examples of that.

Duggan was working for the WWF at the time of the purchase in April 1987. The dope bust was on May 26, 1987. He was back in September after the Boesch show in August. If JCP made a push, Vince would have slipped him something under the table to stick around. Also, Duggan had proven in the UWF that he was a total asshole about wanting to go to the WWF, to the point that Watts finally told him to get the fuck out of town despite having him locked down under contract. Not to mention Vince not giving a crap about the contract when chasing Duggan. I wouldn't want that headache. Hell, if I had to chase someone that Vince got rid of because of partying in 1987, it would have been the Midnight Rockers. It's a one time appearance that drew. They never replicated it. They also bombed everywhere else that they attempted to expanded to. Then look at the talent. Who do you think drew? I don't think it was the main event, since Doc never drew for JCP. The tag title match was wild, but those four meant nothing in Atlanta at the time. Everything below it is garbage. So... it's the Birds. :/ Then figure out what talent you want off that, eliminating the Deep South local talent: Total Garbage: The Missing Link, Savannah Jack, Angel of Death, Bill Irwin, The Viking Paul Jones Army Level Talent: Iceman Parsons Good Prospects: Rick Steiner, Sting Widely Known Asshole: Chris Adams Useful After Heel Turn: Terry Taylor These Guys Are Good Though Past Their Peak: The Fabulous Freebirds Let's Vince Get This Fat Boy: One Man Gang Top Guy Who Wasn't "Top Guy Over": Steve Williams So... JCP doesn't need the Garbage guys. They already had garbage guys, and at any time could bring in someone like Link for a feud with Valiant. I don't see the point on Parsons either. Adams was a jack ass. He had some value on paper since he could work both heel and face, and you could run him in the midcard /undercard against some lower ranked face or heel. But... he was an asshole. I don't see the value. You're far better off taking Eddie Gilbert since he could work both ways, had the "hot" girlfriend, could manage if needed, and was less of an asshole. Vince liked fatboys to run at Hogan. JCP didn't really run fatboys, with the exception of Bubba... who really wasn't sold as a fatboy. Let Vince take him. Doc bombed in JCP until he got in the Varsity Club. For the life of me, I don't know how you create something like that in 1987. You don't want him to be Buddy's replacement in the Birds since (i) he doesn't fit the attitude, and (ii) it makes for two Big Guys without the glue-guy bumper seller. I'd frankly let him go to Vince to save more money for Ted. Which leaves: Rick Steiner and Sting were good prospects. I very much would have looked to keep them, and looked to find some way to keep Sting out of the eye of Vince. That's my worst nightmare as JCP: Vince getting Sting to be a far better version of Warrior. I'd really work on slow building him up, pairing him with guys who could work to learn the ropes, etc. Rick... I liked. Terry Taylor was fab after the heel turn. He was bland as a face. I didn't envision him as a heel before he actually turned, then thought he was instantly a very good mid-card heel. If I were smart enough to have seen that at the time, I flat out would have gotten him. And of course The Freebirds. Obviously they were past their earlier Georgia, Mid South and World Class peak. But they'd never had a big push in JCP, and *probably* could be positioned as tweeners: heels against the faces, and faces against heels like the Horsemen. I might not want to get things confused and instead have them be something clear. But I would push them, and push them hard... as in they're winning their first feud in, and I'm putting some belts on them. Two major concerns: * Gordy's knee That has to be dealt with. The problem is that it's wrestling and you basically have to keep working. You've got to do something about it. * Buddy's long term replacement Just has to be done. I don't have a great idea who would fit, just that I wouldn't want Garvin in there. I'd want someone bigger than Buddy, but not Terry sized. If we're going to get Gordy's knee worked on, then you want to do that while Buddy is still around and you introduce the guy who will replace Buddy eventually. When Gordy comes back, then Buddy can retire. So... I would avoid Birds vs Road Warriors while Gordy is out. You also run into an issue of Birds vs MX & Bubba if there's no Gordy, since you need a Big opposite of Bubba. But there's lots of other things you can run. Anyway, that's all off that card that's of any value to me: Birds, Sting, Steiner and Taylor. Other guys who come to mind that I'd want would be Ted and Eddie Gilbert. I'd want the Fantastics, but they already left UWF at that point and were effectively free agents. I wouldn't want any of the chum of the promotions.

I think Duggan already headed to the WWF, and his minor "suspension" was something that they would overlook quick. He had a track record of a desire for the big lights of the WWF, so even if you some how brought him in, he'd quickly be wanting to go back to the WWF... and Vince would have no issues trying to get him to be a big pain in the ass again. I just don't think UWF guys meant anything in JCP in general. Doesn't really matter of folks hadn't seen an Invasion angle before. The only one fans would have cared about was WWF vs JCP, and only then with Hogan leading the WWF (i.e. not giving a crap if third tier WWF guys invaded JCP). If I had to invest in Flair and Dusty joining hands, I'd rather do it against a tweeked Horsemen with Ted than against a UWF. It's something my JCP fans got and bought into. Mentioned earlier that I don't really care about Watt's cities in 1987. They were dead. JCP had enough good cities in 1986 into 1987. What they didn't have was a good program for Flair after Barry, on top of rehashing MX vs R'nR yet again, or anything for Lex after Nikita (I thought Lex vs Dusty are a horrible program for Lex), or... I'd just rather focusing on making JCP strong rather than trying to figure out a 10-15 man faux "UWF" to run in JCP. I'd rather pick off the useful guys like Ted on top, long term "prospects" like Steiner and Sting, useful mid carders like Eddie and a heel Taylor (though Dusty seemed to hate him at the time). I'd let Vince take Gang, wouldn't mind if he took Doc and then in a couple of years perhaps pick him off after he bombed out. I would have busted my ass to keep Bubba, though he was JCP anyway. I flat out would have used the Birds better, sent Gordy off for knee surgery and full rehab and look for a long term Buddy heir who wasn't Jimmy Garvin but another young workhorse who wasn't a talker and could use Hayes as the mic guy for him. Etc.

Why not Lex vs. Sting like I said? Lex was great as a heel, and kinda awkward as a face. The fans were really getting behind Sting. A portion of fans always want to cheer Flair, don't get that impression with Lex. Build Lex big as a heel champ after winning the title from Flair. Lex-Sting, then Lex-Sid (whatever you say about him, he was crazy over), maybe back to Lex-Flair in 91 or build Windham properly and do Lex-Windham. 9 months or so out of the main event picture wouldn't do Flair any harm, or if the idea is to gradually phase him out, that's how. Eventually put Sting over big for the title. Because you would have then burned Lex-Sting in 1990 rather than saving it for 1991 after Heel Flair dropped the title to Face Sting. It was the biggest problem of Sting's 1990 title reign: he had dick as far as opponent. You build to Sting-Lex in a rational way, you've got a match. You do this in 1990: Flair --> Lex Huge Lex vs Sting~! back to Lex vs Flair Lex --> Flair Huge Flair heel turn on Sting~! Flair --> Sting And you've hot shotted the motherfucker out of the title, and blown off a Lex-Sting feud you need in 1991. As far as Side... he wasn't crazy over in a drawing way. Never was. He was one of those classic guys who got a pop for coming out, and then fell off from there. Undertaker was that way for years, only really turning around thanks to Stone Cols.

Here's the problem: JCP fans didn't give a shit about the UWF guys as UWF guys. I might have. You might have. But "UWF stuff" never flew with JCP fans. It meant dick on the cards that I went to out here. Doc as UWF Champ meant nothing. Whether fans gave a shit about the Freebirds had nothing to do with "UWF", but whether they cared about the Birds. There's not need to waste time with the UWF. What one should look at it as is the opportunity to get talent. I wouldn't go insane trying to grab everyone. Just the handful or so guys who could spruce up your product. Ted clearly could. The problem is that Dusty liked Dusty talent. The Fantastics could always have spruced up JCP, but Dusty didn't bring them in until his R'nR ran their course... and Corny had to ask Dusty to bring them in.

Again, the rivalry didn't really start until 1996. Then recall what happened in 1996: * Liger gets IWGP back from Koji * Koji & Shinji get title shotes in early 1996 with Liger retaining * Liger put over Sasuke for the title in April * Liger puts over BT in Super Juniors to set up Eddy for title shot * Skydiving J to set up J Crown * Sasuke (i.e. IWGP Champ) gets J Crown * Liger had brain tumor * Dragon gets J Crown Then on 01/04/97, Liger wins the J Crown so that the Big 3 (Liger and his two indy rivials) have all passed it around). It's not like Liger has had a lot of time to put over Ohtani, nor in a way that wouldn't have gotten in the way of that rather good booking job he did for the balance of the year. It's now Feb, and he just got the belt(s) back from Dragon. This isn't exactly 2000 WWF where the titles bounce around every week. Instead, he does set up Shinji for a run later in the year. Liger is frankly quicker on giving wins to lower ranked guys than say Baba is.

Live... this was fucking awesome. We all worried that Konnan would do something stupid like having Rey go over and some total bullshit finish. Instead it was an awesome finish with the "right finish" and the crowd going batshit.

It does in October, in a match that isn't on this level and isn't on the set. And in 1995 as well, though Liger had the "excuse" of it being early in his return off his injury. Basically put over both Koji and Ohtani who had been "growing up" in the junior division while Liger was out. Then he was fully back at the 01/04/96 Tokyo Dome, and re-established himself as NJPW's top junior while Sasuke and Dragon were his out-of-promotion peers.

That's kind of how they were treated: they were the next generation chasing Liger's spot. Saskue was a peer from outside. Sammy and Pegasus were creations of Liger's. Koji and Shinji were clearly the next generation. Depends on how one defines "on Liger's level". It's a bit like whether Misawa was on Jumbo's level, or just the young rival chasing him. He did beat Jumbo, but then again... Koji beat Liger several times. That's what Liger evolved into: he was the Jumbo of that division. He dropped the title, but eventually got it back from May 1989 through July 2000. Koji had three reigns in there, including one over Liger. Shinji had a reign in there as well. Did they get to Liger's "Jumbo Level"? Not while Liger was there, just like Misawa didn't. After Liger moved on, the division became Kanemoto and Tiger Mask IV's. In that sense, he got there. Shinji moved on with Hash to Zero-1. Everyone was a cut below Liger. He was the King. But Koji was the one given the IWGP in the year when Liger was out in 1995. He beat like on a 1993 Dome show, and paid it back on a 1994 Dome show. He beat Liger when he returned at the end of 1995 before dropping the title to him on the 01/04/96 Dome show. After Liger used the balance of 1996 to put over the J Crown, and deal with his own brain tumor, 1997 started with Liger essentially re-establishing himself as the King of the Juniors: get his win back again Dragon at the January Dome (payback to the loss in the J Crown tourny), go over The Punks in February, show the J Crown was defended against guys from other feds against Motegi, get his win back over Sasauke at the April Dome (payback for dropping the title to Sasuke at the prior April's Dome). Then he'd put over Sammy for the belt so that Sammy could put over Ohtani for Shinji's first reign (similar to Jumbo --> Hansen --> Misawa & Misawa --> Doc --> Kawada & Misawa --> Taue --> Kobashi to string out the younger/lesser guy's chase). Which is kind of what Liger was doing. But we need to remember: * Ohtani didn't step up until 1995 as a pushed Jr * 1995 was also the point where Koji really came into his own after earlier flopping It's 1997. This is Liger's second cycle of defending against these guys, after doing it in 1996. Misawa's first defense against Kawada was 1992. Right now at this point in the year, Kawada was still 0-for-Life against Misawa in singles matches. Misawa's first title defense against Kobashi was in 1995. A month earlier from this match, Kobashi went back down to defeat, and if there is one thing that becomes clear as 1997 goes on... it's that Kobashi isn't at Misawa's level year. He's still chasing (and would be until the next century). So this is still fairly early in the rivalry. There were Liger-Kanemoto matches prior to Liger's 1994 injury, but the ones of note were under the Tiger Mask... and really failed. The rivalry didn't start in earnest until 1996, when it more clearly became Liger & Sammy & Older Goats vs Koji & Shinji & Young Punks. This is really early. As far as how it worked... Ohtani's reign later in the year didn't take off like folks expected. Disappointing. Koji stayed strong and was pushed, but come early 1998, the belt went back on Liger and he had two long runs with it (ignoring the WCW bullshit) before moving out of the division. Koji had one long run in there, while Ohtani never got the belt back. The possibilities were interesting at this point. They just kind of played out over the course of the next year, and by a year from now, the belt was back with Liger and one felt a lot less comfortable with the kids... unless one loved goofy spotfests like Koji-Sammy (later this year) and Koji-Wagner (the following year). 1996 through early/mid-1997 was a moment that I don't think they matched. Again, unless one likes spot matches. The test for you is the Sammy-Koji from later in the year, and to ponder them relative to these two and the relative sanity Liger gave them.

What's funny is that Dave gave matches that were JIP with less time shown on TV the full *****. Anyway, this is a great match. I enjoyed each Misawa-Kobashi after this less and less, eventually loathing them. Their matches before this felt spotty at times, formless at others while throwing lots of good stuff on the wall. This really to me is the only time they put everything together, and they just knock it the heck out of the park. It's a long match, but the elbow arm + lariat arm injuries gave them stretches to focus rather than just throwing bombs, which oddly enough makes it a more enjoyable 40 minutes for me than 40 minutes of them going bombs away. I'd say 12/06/96 and 01/20/97 are probably the end of the peak of work in the promotion. There's good stuff afterwards, how good depending on how much one likes the move towards more and more bomb throwing and the AJPW equiv of self reverential epics. But those tend to be the last two candidates for AJPW MOTD.