jdw

Instead, he would have gone to the WWF and worked with Savage. Everything would have worked out fine... John

No... that's Mick's bullshit explanation. In reality, he was suppose to keep getting up and eating more. The whole thing went according to plan. He was quite pleased with himself afterwards. It's only down the road that he started to reinvent it.

I seem to remember Wade Keller saying that Foley's original ending for this match was to have his family in the front row and after taking a beating (still with the chairs) and seeing his kids cry he'd say "I quit" and take some time off. I also remember Keller saying that sometime before the show Foley decided to make the finish even more brutal and Rock was to keep hitting him with the chair until he rolled outside. Since Foley took forever to roll outside Rock just kept whacking him. Foley did this knowing his kids were in the front row. Are those stories correct? Mick and Collete planned the whole thing. You can see in the movie a moment where Mick is trying to get across to his kids that whatever happens, Rock is really his friend (or words along those lines). Still... he knew what he was going to do, and they had a pretty good idea how the kids would react. In turn, there was a shitload of talk leading into it that Mick planned on "topping Hell in the Cell" with the bullshit stunt. It was the chair shit. Someone can also go ask Barnett about it - he was backstage that day, around Foley quite a bit, and knew the bullshit they were up to. Mick knew in hindsight, especially when being interview by Barry (the "I guess that makes me a bad dad" scene), that he went a bit far in using his kids in a bullshit stunt. And of course Collete was an even bigger piece of shit in it than Mick.

Two points: On the Mafia discussion... yes, exactly. I occasionally use the phrase "This Thing Of Ours" as a stand in for pro wrestling, or our pro wrestling fandom. We know what it's about, it's a thing we share together, folks think it's stupid, but fuck it... we like it. It's not that i avoid talking about it at all costs, or lie about it when it comes up in true Mafia fashion. But it's something that's pointless to talk about with non-fans: no real good comes from it. On the Soap Opera discussion... yes. Watched them in the mid-70s with our Neighborhood Babysitter, i.e. our next door neighbor who was mid/late teens and kept an eye on all of us kids in the neighborhood. She didn't exactly sit us, and all of us guys (basically 9 out of 10 on the block) ran around all up and down the street. But if we wanted to swim, she's watch us (need an "adult" present). She's make sure we grabbed some lunch. If we were out of line, she'd try to get us to knock it off... and we knew that if we pushed it too far it would get back to our parents. Etc. Now... her nickname was Babe. Everyone called her Babe, even her older brothers. And she was a Babe. So the observant little 9 year old that I was noticed that she liked ABC Soaps. And that if I watched them with her, I could hand out with her... and if I paid attention and asked questions about them, she's talk with me a whole lot. Major thing for a 9 year old boy. I recall watching Ryan's Hope from it's 1st episode as it was added to the ABC lineup. That was about all I could take that first year, before heading back out to play with the rest of my neighborhood friends. Following summer... I extended it to watching All My Children. Then she hooked me onto One Life To Life... she hooked me onto General Hospital right before Luke & Laura took off. I stopped watching at some point in high school. I got back into them in college - my college girlfriend happened to be an ABC Soap fan, and she dragged me back in, watching them after morning classes. Pro wrestling and soaps were my stoner college garbage entertainment. Wrestling stuck past college. Anyway... yeah, Soaps are a bit akin to pro wrestling. Except that they were pretty mainstream for a big chunk of the population in the 60s and 70s. Super popular among women who were off, and they would talk about them. Though on some level it was like wrestling: my mom would talk about them with other women who watched them (she was an NBC watcher until the early/mid 70s when she went back to work), but it wasn't something she'd talk to my dad about. So yeah... pretty good comp for pro wrestling. Also agree with the folks who lament them dying out. I would have thought that with all the cable channels that one of them would have been the landing spot for scaled back soaps. Smaller casts, perhaps fewer of them, and perhaps scaling back to 30 minutes. You'd think that USA Network, or ABC Family (or Soap Net itself since ABC owns it), or Bravo... that one of them would take it on. But the costs of an old sitcom are less. Still, you'd think it would be similar to cable itself: 5 million viewers gets you cancelled on NBC in a key timeslot, but on A&E or TNT, that's a massive hit. You'd think that there would be a cost effective way to have sustained the soap concept, and some of the major soaps themselves, by transitioning to cable with smart budget control. Anyway, it is sad.

My take is the same it's always been: Snuka was responsible for her death. Suspect Bix would say the same thing.

Case in point - the Chiefs are my team, and there was a lot more Belcher coverage in this region than there was nationally, and my first reaction to this was "what the fuck is jdw talking about?" And you see... I've already forgotten his name. :/ Benoit sticks in out head because he's from This Thing Of Ours that we obsess about. We watched a lot of him, some of us liked him a good deal. What happened was one of the biggest stories in the history of pro wrestling, and it's likely that very few of us will lose parts of what we were thinking and feeling as it broke. It's one of those central things in our fandom that's going to be hard to ever forget. For the public... it was yet another horrible murder, one of many every year. *sigh*

I'm not hinting at any of that. When I was a kid, none of my friends, all of who are sports fans, gave two shits about pro wrestling because it was Fake. The adults I was around didn't give a shit about it because it was Fake. I got into pro wrestling around the time I was 20. None of the people I interacted with gave a shit about pro wrestling because it was Fake. I've been a pro wrestling fan as an adult. With *every* single non-wrestling fan that with whom the words "pro wrestling" has come up with in the past 20 years, the response from them is, "It's fake". Usually they try to gently get to the point, probably wondering if I think it's real and not wanting to offend me or thinking that I'm a dumb fuck for thinking something Fake is Real. I don't give a shit about how pro wrestling markets itself. I don't give a shit about Bizzaro World Dexter. I'm just pointing out reality. The reason most people don't give pro wrestling the time of day is because it's: FAKE Ponder how many discussions with non-wrestling fans you have had in your life over the Quality of Entertainment, or Match Quality, or whether it's Good... no, not where *you* brought up those concepts, but where the non-fan brought them up to discuss pro wrestling. Relative to the concept of FAKE, it's a very small number. I'm 100% certain that there are other entertainment and sports things that right off the bat have a similar negative hang up for folks about them that causes folks not to give a shit about them right off the bat. We'd have to think a bit about them to figure out a few. But for pro wrestling, that's it. I know it bugs some people. We've talk about people needing to find "legit" things about pro wrestling, and the old "mainstream" aspect that folks were looking for as ways to legitimize their fandom. My general thought is... who gives a shit. Just enjoy what you enjoy.

I don't think a lot of the public gives two shits enough about pro wrestling to think about Benoit. It's a bit like the KC player who shot his girlfriend then killed himself in the stadium parking lot: he was simply the Death of the Month, which the class moves on from. Morbid? I think much of the public has moved on from Newton, Aurora, Tucson, Fort Hood... etc. Think that's a reach? http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2012/1...jones-full-data How many of those do you think stick in the *mass* of the public's mind? Fewer than we think, for less time than we think. For example, I tend to pay attention to this... and I'm offended at myself that I remember next to nothing about the Accent Signage Systems shooting. Benoit was just a Death of the Month. More people still think of Hulk Hogan in terms of pro wrestling than Benoit.

You're being hyper sensitive. Of course it's real. If it was fake, NFL Creative would have booked: * Denver (Manning) vs Pats (Brady) in the AFC Title game Instead, Baltimore not only got in, but won. * Giants (i.e. New Fucking York) vs Packers (Aaron Rogers) in the NFC title game Instead, the Giants didn't even make the post season, and the ended up with SanFran vs Seattle. * Manning vs Manning or Brady vs Rogers in the Super Bowl Instead... it was freaking Baltimore and the 49ers. The NBA does a much better job: Three straight years of Kobe & the Los Angeles Lakers in the NBA Finals followed by three straight years of Lebron in the NBA Finals. How again have ratings gone since those shitting ratings when the Spurs were winning 3 titles in 5 years? NBA Creative books well, right down to the Heel Refs helping the right teams win.

Wrestling presents itself as Sport, or at least did for almost all of its history. People have Real Sports to watch and follow, and wrestling stands out in contrast to it: Fake Sport. So it's naturally going to get a negative from a lot of people who just don't watch it because if they wanted to watch sports, they'll rather Real Sports. We as wrestling fans don't get that. But take a step back: the most common thing all of us have heard from non-wrestling fans is... "It's fake." Well, no shit. But also... well... that is them explaining why they don't like it. It's the #1 reason, overwhelmingly, why people dismiss it. In contrast, when we had a discussion about Dexter at lunch today, no one brought up, "It's a fake show about a fake serial killer." That's just no relevant to why people like or don't like the show. That Avengers has "fake fights" isn't relevant. It's not presenting itself as a Fighting Movie. It's an action movie, and folks accept it on that level. Wrestling, on the other hand, presents itself as "fighting". Not in an MMA or Boxing standpoint anymore, and of course in a way that we hardcore fans accept the fake fakiness of. But to non-fans... it's being pimping as Fights when it's really Fake Fights. Non-fans can't get past it.

They did face each other on that card: http://prowrestlinghistory.com/supercards/...o90.html#122787 This, though, does look like it's 1/11/88 and the '88 Top of the Super Juniors: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HsxT7LaFspE I'd have to look at JWJ to see what they say, and if there's something earlier in 1987. Away from home until Sunday...

When was this Yamada SSP you're referencing? Yamada was the one who invented it. I'd have to look up when he invented it. Folks point to a Jan 11, 1988 match with Funkaki... not sure if that's the case and he used it earlier. He debuted against Kobayashi at the Dome. Won with a german suplex. Beat Nogami a few months later with a Liger Bomb. I don't recall "Liger" using Yamada's SSP until Sano ripped the mask to shreds and revealed what everyone kind of knew: "Liger" was Yamada.

Check... looks like that wasn't a printed program booklet. As far as booking the NJ Tag League, that would have been done comfortably in advance. Hogan worked it in 1980 & 1982, winning it with Inoki in 1982. Probably even know by the end of his prior tour (the IWGP series back in May/June) that he'd be coming back for the Tag League.

Starrcade, not Race. Okay: Hart said Hogan wasn't booked at Starcade. That doesn't look like an Apter mag, as I thought the poster said it was from the Program.

Why would Gary lie like that? It was covered in the WON at the time, with the talk about them working a 1 fall match because Hogan wouldn't even split falls with Race before the 3rd fall bullshit finish.

Claw has a post here: http://wrestlingclassics.com/cgi-bin/.ubbc...ic;f=1;t=122555 There is a slight timeline problem: Fritz wasn't NWA President "a few years later". He was the NWA President at the time Bock was going to be pushed in St Louis, and as the decision was made to put the title on Terry: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Wres...ance#Presidents Graham probably was president when the decision was made to go to Race, depending on when the decision was made and when Fritz's term ends and Graham's began. Then Graham, Giegel and Crockett were president during Harley's run. I fully expect this story to be revised the next time we see it told. It will be Eddie Graham who asked him, no later than a year into Harley's run. Because we know that Geigel and Crockett wouldn't ask. John

Lots of heels won titles in Florida. Jimmy Garvin was the Southern champ several time. Graham pushing David, be it as a favor to Fritz or because he thought the kid was good, isn't the same thing as voting for him to be World Champ for 160+ days and making that many defenses of the title in Florida. It really is a different beast.

That's possible. That's entirely possible.

Is that in response to no one other than Fritz wanting David to be champ? I have doubts that Eddie Graham in 1983 wanted David to be the NWA Champ for 160+ days. But, does any of this from your earlier list look like stuff that Eddie would rather have had David Von Erich defending as the Heel NWA Champ: * * * * * CWF @ Gainesville, FL – O’Connell Center – June 19, 1983 NWA World Heavyweight Title: Harley Race © vs. Barry Windham CWF @ Orlando, FL – Eddie Graham Sports Stadium – June 19, 1983 NWA World Heavyweight Title – SR: Ron Bass: Harley Race © d. Dusty Rhodes CWF @ West Palm Beach, FL - City Auditorium - June 20, 1983 NWA World Heavyweight Title: Harley Race © d. Barry Windham CWF @ Tampa, FL – Fort Homer Hesterly Armory – June 21, 1983 NWA World Heavyweight Title: Harley Race © d. Scott McGhee CWF @ Miami, FL – Miami Beach Auditorium & Convention Hall – June 22, 1983 NWA World Heavyweight Title: Harley Race © d. Dusty Rhodes by countout CWF @ Orlando, FL – Eddie Graham Sports Stadium – June 25, 1983 NWA World Heavyweight Title: Harley Race © d. Barry Windham * * * * * CWF @ Orlando, FL – Eddie Graham Sports Stadium – July 31, 1983 NWA World Heavyweight Title: Harley Race © d. Dusty Rhodes by DQ CWF @ West Palm Beach, FL - City Auditorium - August 1, 1983 NWA World Heavyweight Title: Harley Race © fought Mike Graham to a 60:00 draw CWF @ Tampa, FL - Fort Homer Hesterly Armory - August 2, 1983 NWA World Heavyweight Title: Harley Race © d. Mike Graham by DQ CWF @ Miami, FL – Miami Beach Auditorium & Convention Hall – August 3, 1983 NWA World Heavyweight Title: Harley Race © d. Barry Windham by DQ CWF @ Fort Pierce, FL - August 6, 1983 NWA World Heavyweight Title: Harley Race © vs. Blackjack Mulligan CWF @ West Palm Beach, FL – City Auditorium – August 15, 1983 NWA World Heavyweight Title: Harley Race © d. Dusty Rhodes by DQ CWF @ Tampa, FL - Fort Homer Hesterly Armory - August 16, 1983 NWA World Heavyweight Title: Dusty Rhodes d. Harley Race © by DQ CWF @ Sunrise, FL – Music Theater – August 17, 1983 NWA World Heavyweight Title: Harley Race © vs. Mike Graham CWF @ Jacksonville, FL – Coliseum – August 18, 1983 No DQ for the NWA World Heavyweight Title: Harley Race © vs. Dusty Rhodes CWF @ Sarasota, FL – Robarts Arena – August 20, 1983 NWA World Heavyweight Title: Harley Race © d. Barry Windham by DQ CWF @ Orlando, FL - Eddie Graham Sports Stadium - September 3, 1983 Mike Graham d. Harley Race CWF @ Ocala, FL – Jai-Alai Fronton – September 4, 1983 NWA World Heavyweight Title: Harley Race © vs. Barry Windham CWF @ West Palm Beach, FL - City Auditorium - September 5, 1983 NWA World Heavyweight Title: Harley Race © d. Mike Graham by DQ CWF @ Tampa, FL – Fort Homer Hesterly Armory – September 6, 1983 Blackjack Mulligan d. Harley Race CWF @ Miami, FL – Miami Beach Auditorium & Convention Hall – September 7, 1983 (5,675) NWA World Heavyweight Title: Harley Race © d. Ric Flair CWF @ Jacksonville, FL – Coliseum – September 8, 1983 NWA World Heavyweight Title: Harley Race © vs. Barry Windham CWF @ Daytona, FL – Spruce Creek High School – September 9, 1983 NWA World Heavyweight Title: Harley Race © vs. Angelo Mosca CWF @ Lakeland, FL – Civic Center – September 10, 1983 NWA World Heavyweight Title: Harley Race © vs. Barry Windham * * * * * WF @ West Palm Beach, FL - City Auditorium - September 26, 1983 NWA World Heavyweight Title: Harley Race © d. Barry Windham by countout CWF @ Tampa, FL - Fort Homer Hesterly Armory - September 27, 1983 Blackjack Mulligan, Mike Rotundo, & Barry Windham d. Ron Bass, Harley Race, & JJ Dillon CWF @ Miami, FL – Miami Beach Auditorium & Convention Hall – September 28, 1983 2 out of 3 falls match for the NWA World Heavyweight Title: Barry Windham d. Harley Race © by DQ CWF @ Jacksonville, FL - Coliseum - September 29, 1983 NWA World Heavyweight Title: Blackjack Mulligan d. Harley Race © by DQ CWF @ Ocala, FL – Central Florida Community College – September 30, 1983 2 out of 3 falls match for the NWA World Heavyweight Title: Harley Race © vs. Barry Windham CWF @ St. Petersburg, FL – Bayfront Center – October 1, 1983 NWA World Heavyweight Title: Harley Race © battled Dusty Rhodes to a double countout CWF @ Tampa, FL - Fort Homer Hesterly Armory - October 4, 1983 NWA World Heavyweight Title: Harley Race © battled Dusty Rhodes to a no contest CWF @ Orlando, FL - Eddie Graham Sports Stadium - October 9, 1983 NWA World Heavyweight Title: Barry Windham d. Harley Race © by DQ CWF @ Ocala, FL – Jai-Alai Fronton – October 9, 1983 2 out of 3 falls match for the NWA World Heavyweight Title: Harley Race © vs. Barry Windham * * * * * CWF @ Ocala, FL – Jai-Alai Fronton – November 13, 1983 NWA World Heavyweight Title: Harley Race © vs. Mike Rotundo CWF @ West Palm Beach, FL - City Auditorium - November 14, 1983 NWA World Heavyweight Title: Harley Race © d. Dusty Rhodes CWF @ Tampa, FL – Sun Dome – November 15, 1983 NWA World Heavyweight Title: Harley Race © vs. Mike Rotundo CWF @ Miami, FL – Miami Beach Auditorium & Convention Hall – November 16, 1983 NWA World Heavyweight Title: Harley Race © d. Mike Rotundo by DQ in 22:12 CWF @ Daytona Beach, FL – Spruce Creek High School – November 18, 1983 NWA World Heavyweight Title: Harley Race © vs. Barry Windham CWF @ St. Petersburg, FL – Bayfront Center – November 19, 1983 NWA World Heavyweight Title: Harley Race © d. Ron Bass by DQ * * * * * I really don't think so. Most of it looks up Harley's alley, not David.

I've heard it suggested many times that Bock was considered for the title. I am skeptical that he was ever outright offered it and turned it down. It's more likely that a promoter of note/player in the NWA mentioned to him that he might be someone of interest and he let them know the feeling wasn't mutual. AWA money was good and travel was lighter. Plus Bock was able to book himself out to other offices (Calgary, Memphis, Houston, et.) whereas in the NWA he would have been at the whim of the NWA promoters, with the NWA president taking a percentage of the cut as his pimp. Dylan hits it how I would. I don't think there ever was a movement by a majority of the NWA Board and NWA Promoters to offer Nick the title. The story is always stated as happening after Nick won the AWA title. That means during the reigns of Terry, Harley or Flair. Let's knock off Flair and 1982: there was ZERO chance that "the NWA" offered Bock the title at that point. It appeared that everyone was happy with Flair as champ, and that Ric draw very well as champ. There might have been some who would have preferred their own guys to be the champ (say Dusty wanting it for himself or Fritz wanting it for his Boys), but there just isn't any chance that there was a movement among the majority to take the belt off Flair. So let's flip to Terry. I've never heard the story be told that it was an offer to Nick when Terry's reign was ending, that it was offered to Nick, he turned it down and the NWA went with Race. I've always read that there was a pretty decent consensus to go to Race when Terry's clock ran, with a number of people indentified as potential future champs (like Flair... but I take it with a grain of salt that happened in early 1977). So it means the offer came *during* Race's run. If a majority of the NWA Board and/or Promoters we unhappy enough with Race to want to get the belt off him and give it to the *AWA Champ*, then when Nick turned it down they would have put the belt on someone else. Instead, Race held the belt until 1981. He was then liked enough by the Board and Promoters that they let him have it for 160+ days in 1983. Does that sound like someone the Board wanted out of there? Dick Hutton is an example of an NWA Champ who the board wanted gone. Look what happened to him. Like Dylan, I believe there is an origin to the story: Some NWA Promoter was unhappy with Race. That promoter wanted to suggest an alternative Champ to the Board and/or his fellow promoters. He went to Bock and asked if he was interested. Then it died in one of two ways: * Bock truly wasn't interested; or * the NWA Promoter found no support from his fellow promoters to dump Race Now the reason Larry M might know the story is that the unhappy promoter (let's call him Bosch) told another promoter (let's call him Sam), which was shared with Larry. FWIW, it seems really hard to think that Sam would have backed Bock. Race had a long run of working in St Louis. Hard to see that Sam thought Race was a shitty champ.

I know that's an old story, and perhaps at some point Race would have gotten #7 because of it. But: May 26, 1983: Adonis wins Thesz World Title June 10, 1983: Race beats Flair in St Louis for #7 It doesn't strike me that the NWA would react that quickly. Not saying it's not possible, but it's really quick. Harley also stepped right into the World Title schedule: Texas, Florida, Georgia against Local Heroes before a big run in JCP in July mostly against Flair before the Bounty Hunters angle. It kind of feels like an orderly change of the title. We do have that story as well: Final Conflict was so successful that JCP looked to do Starcade closed circuit around the territory, with Flair looking to regain the title. Since that is what happened, it tends to support that story. Flair also had the belt for close to 2 years, so he was due for a title change with someone, at least a Local Hero, at that point. One does get the feeling that the reason it stayed off Flair longer than it had Race (in the changes with Dusty in 1979 and Rich in 1981) is that Crockett wanted to build to Starcade. I don't think any NWA Promoter who was not named Fritz Von Erich wanted to see David Von Erich as the NWA Champ. Certainly not as a touring champ for 160+ days.

On Tito: http://www.thehistoryofwwe.com/80.htm Ctrl+F = Tito + select up (for last entry) WWF @ Bristol, CT - April 16, 1980 WWF Tag Team Champions the Wild Samoans defeated Ivan Putski & Tito Santana via disqualification http://www.thehistoryofwwe.com/81.htm No Tito http://www.thehistoryofwwe.com/82.htm No Tito http://www.thehistoryofwwe.com/83.htm WWF @ Allentown, PA - Agricultural Hall - May 10, 1983 Championship Wrestling taping: Tito Santana defeated Jose Estrada via submission with the figure-four at 3:44 (Santana's return after a 3-year absence) Worked just tapings until early July. You can sift through 1983 to get a clearer sense of how regular he was for the balance of the year. The Omni was a big arena. At times Georgia would bring guys in from out of town for quickies, similar to Mid South with the Super Domes.

Yeah.