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pantherwagner

DVDVR 80s Project
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Everything posted by pantherwagner

  1. Hopefully Sid dies and goes to the same hell as Bruiser Brody. Cena vs. Sid would be awesome.
  2. Herodes, you are talking about the Turtles vs. Terry, Feliciano and the Scorpios. The match I mention in Japan, against Terry, Feliciano, Shu and Lobo Rubio. But I back up this man, at some point there's got to be some mid 80s Herodes around. Well, of course, there are so many suggestions, but I'm really looking forward to the 1st volume.
  3. Marty Jones vs. Terry Rudge (some time in the early 70s) Jackie Sato vs. Rimi Yokota from 12/80 (not the more famous and available title change) An Steve Wright match, not sure which one yet (need to watch more 90s stuff vs. Finlay and Zrno to decide) Doink vs. Fit Finlay Los Brazos vs. Los Bucaneros (some time in 1989) Los 4 Temerarios vs. Ninja Turtles (Universal)
  4. Vince McMahon's preferred sexual practice involves crushed leaves.
  5. That's a fantastic post, John. That should be a required read for anyone who already feels comfortable with the lucha style and wants to notice things you won't notice at first sight. Re: Smoove's reply to your post, Estrada had some lightning quick rope game, Jaguar Yokota or Ricky Marvin level of flawless speed/execution. I'm surprised I have never seen anybody stealing his trademark spot where he'd be sent to the ropes, stop by grabbing the ropes, and then continuing on running the ropes but knowing he's got the advantage now. I know that was not a good explanation but those familiar with Jerry would know what I mean.
  6. Exactly, I also would like to participate because I'm expecting Flair vs. Scott McGhee and not Flair vs. Steamboat.
  7. My thoughts except maybe CMLL.
  8. AAA in Torreon, Coah. - 10/11/92 Super Astro, Solar & Panterita del Ring vs. Blue Panther, Jerry Estrada & Ice Killer As soon as I got this DVD I went straight to this match. I hadn't seen it in years but I remembered it perfectly as the match hat sold me on ICE KILLER. Anybody that has been watching lucha for a while knows that lucha libre is all about hierarchies. When matches start out clean and there aren't feuds/angles to develop, most of the time the dance pairings are based on hierarchy, which is based on a mix of experience, success and legit aura. That's why El Dandy always starts out with Brazo de Oro and not Plata, and why Brazo de Oro starts out with Satanico and not Pirata Morgan. Here the standard pairings are pretty easy: Panther-Solar, Estrada-Astro, Killer-Panterita. Since Panther and Astro were feuding at the time, you figure Solar and Astro would switch roles. Well, this time Solar was paired up with Ice Killer and not only that, Killer was traeated like a peer when exchanging holds, and not exactly in a "here is me feeding you my arm so you can put on an armbar" way. When you work the mat with Solar you better bring you A game or you'll be lead through the motions. Ice Killer wasn't walked through exchanges at any point and always took the initiative on his own, which is why for years I thought there was some forgotten 80s veteran under the mask. I have never been able to identify him so I guess Ice Killer was simply Ice Killer. Pretty good stuff - and I know it's a simple move, but I liked Killer's Death Valley Slam into a keylock, as keylock holds is usually a focus of the Solar matwork style. Astro and Panther were building to a title match (that you should see if you haven't already done so) so they did a bunch of technical wrestling - which was also great. Man I'm glad the late 90s "Super Astro is pretty limited" school of thought is dead, as his matwork is extra cool because he has the same grace and smoothness to it that he has in his flying. Panterita was out there in the impressive local flyer role. He was good, but not impressive, especially when in the earlier match you had Misterioso, Volador and Rey Misterio Jr. Also, it's no secret that Jerry Estrada is awesome. The usual arguments are his insane bumping, his quickness, his brawling, but he's totally underrated as a master storyteller. This match was not about him, but he did perfectly all he had to do, whether it was taking some slap comedy bump for Astro or flying outside the ring after a dropkick. And the great thing is that this match wasn't about Estrada so you really don't realize how freaking great he was in this match until you are walking back home talking to your friends about the match, or you finished watching the video, and reality sinks in. John Williams once wrote a great post about Jerry talking about this, hopefully somebody can rescue it because it was a great read and this bout is a perfect example of what he was talking about. Also here we had a good example of the relative importance of dives or cool moves in lucha libre or any other style. When it looked like Super Astro was going to dive onto Panther and start a chain reaction, each guy was dropkicked out of the ring or stopped by somebody else. When it was pretty clear Jerry was going to be the one diving over Panterita, Solar stopped him and it got a bigger pop than an actual dive would have gotten - plus it cleared the way for Astro to come back to the ring and actually use his tope atomico on Panther. This was not a classic, but a pretty good match that is an excellent representative of the mid 90s AAA style.
  9. To me it's pretty obvious that Brody would have ended up in ECW feuding with Sabu, Funk and/or Foley. That would have been his springboard to WCW or WWF. At worst, he'd be making a decent living in the indies like Abdullah. He was an asshole but this is pro wrestling and he had a big name. Even Tiger Jeet Singh got tons of chances and nostalgia runs for pretty good payoffs in the Japanese indies, and he wasn't about to put over Onita in FMW, or whatever 80s IWE/AJ castoffs the IWA or W*ING was booking.
  10. Times have changed and people now are more open to territory wrestling and lucha libre, but I totally agree with this. Not so many years ago, when people talked about best wrestlers ever, the typical list usually was 1 to 4. random mix of Tsuruta/Misawa/Kawada/Kobashi, 5.- maybe Liger or Akira Hokuto.
  11. Different kind of "cursed show", but what about this? June 4, 1982: Fritz Von Erich Retirement Show at Texas Stadium El Solitario b Rene Guajardo to win the NWA World Light Heavyweight title Dead, dead Andre the Giant b Bugsy McGraw by DQ Dead, alive (I thought he was dead, but I always confuse him with Jos Leduc) Andre the Giant won a "Bodyslam Battle Royal" Dead Lola Gonzales b Irma Gonzales Very fat, very old Bill Irwin b Ken Mantell Both are alive The Spoiler b Frank Dusek Dead, Chernau/Nulty associate Great Kabuki & Magic Dragon b David & Kevin von Erich to win the All-Asian Tag Team title Alive, dead, dead, what's keeping Kevin? Kerry Von Erich b Harley Race in a "NO-DQ" match Dead, may he live a long life Fritz Von Erich b King Kong Bundy in a "Falls Count Anywhere" match to win the American Heavyweight title. Dead, not dead Yes, I am "homeworking" today.
  12. Marty Jones has been my "Jumbo Hori find" of 2007 so far. He's a guy I had already seen a few times (vs. Owen, vs. Tiger Mask) and I knew he was good, but not THIS good. You should check Marty vs. Caswell Martin. Martin is a capable worker, but you see how Jones walks him through a great, great match. His mid-90s Reslo "battle of the technicians" vs. Tony St. Clair also are fun matches, even if a bit short. I'm sure there's tons more good stuff, I just haven't gotten to it yet. You should also check out his match in the first UWF vs. Super Tiger - great, great match. Sayama is being a total cunt stiffing Jones, who plays with it being an old school carny heel, then he gives back some and catches some of Sayama's flippy telegraphed kicks - this only annoys Sayama even more! I have WoS episodes 51 to 150 and after what I have watched, I'm looking forward to get even more of this stuff, especially the first shows that are supposed to be an introduction to the style. I love the fact that I don't know about 70% of the guys, even by name/rep, so it's all new stuff open "to be discovered".
  13. The short version: I hate most 80s UWF and UWFi style matches. The long version: I know that most people associate me with lucha libre, like some people are associated with joshi or AJPW, but I'm a guy that watches everything and anything. During my "down periods" a few years ago, AJPW classics were my saviour and basically the only thing I watched along with CMLL TV. Last year 80s AJW was my "great re-discovery" (I had watched many stuff over the years, but never tons and tons of hours like last year) and now I'm heavily getting into WOS the same way. When AAA was "the best promotion in the world", NJPW was my favourite. I'll watch lucha or Reslo or early 90s WCW or anything else that's good. The point I'm trying to drive home is that I'm a pretty open minded kind of guy, but I don't like the UWF style at all, and I was wondering if I'm the only one. Funny enough, I'm a pretty big MMA fan, and I watch all big PRIDE and K-1 events and all UFC events, so that's not the problem. Or maybe that's why, because what I hate the most from UWF is the long "working for a kneelock" or "working for an armbar" sections even when it's a great worker like Fujiwara or Yamazaki. It looks so unexciting when the matches are 15 minutes long. Takada in UWF bores me but then I love him as a NJ junior vs. Hase or Koshinaka. Generally the style comes off to me as not as exciting as real fighting and not as interesting as "pro" matwork. Most of the time, I only love the style when a native starts being a cunt and kicks gaijin in the face and then the others retaliate, creating an excitement that otherwise I don't see there. Am I on my own? Those of you who love the style, why do you do so?
  14. Oh yeah, and I have seen the preliminary match lists and it's going to be a shitload of fun. Anybody looking to "get into lucha" and anybody with a mild interest and willingness to watch more should join in. If this doesn't turn you into a full fledged lucha dork, literally, nothing will.
  15. A month break is not terrible and in fact it's from time to time recommended. The "spirit" will be back. Stay away from message board discussions and don't force things. Most people who are "burned out" spend all day on DVDVR or other wrestling sites and it doesn't help. But if you are going to watch anything: Bucaneros vs. Azteca/Atlantis/Mendoza from 08/88 Dandy/Dantes vs. Cien Caras/Mascara 2000 from 05/89 Morgan/Markus/Ulises vs. Popitekus/Atlantis/Dandy from 05/89 Jackie Sato vs. Rimi Yokota WWWA world title qualifying match (not the famous title switch) Jackie Sato vs. Nancy Kumi WWWA world title tournament finals I'm not complicated in that regard, I can spend 2 weeks abroad and not watch a thing, and when I'm back home I only need any Jumbo Hori, Pirata Morgan or Marty Jones to be back in the mood.
  16. Somewhat related. When do you people think Dave will change the newsletter's name?
  17. This sounds awesome. I look forward to the comedy.
  18. I remember about four years ago, Dave wrote a "History of WWF" series. I think this may have been around the time Mr. Wrestling died. Does anybody know the exact dates? Because I know I have the issues (because back then I had a subscription) and would like to scan them to be able to read them anytime without going through a pile of issues. Also, recently there was a history of WCW piece. I only have parts 1 and 2, and I wonder if anybody else could point me out for how long did it go, and where could I get the rest of the series. Wink wink.
  19. Re: Super Astro Interesting question. He was a great, great worker, who has been involved in many incredible matches in the last 25 years, but never was in a promineltly pushed position on TV, so he doesn't have the notoriety he probably should. His biggest run was 83-84 at El Toreo, but by then the promotion was mainly focused on heavyweights and some light-heavyweights. I always got the impression he was more of a "free spirit" and liked to move around, and he probably was better used in the "guest star" role than as somebody featured weekly on TV. While he had a really great formula style match, in the end it was a formula match and it would have hurt him to be showcased on TV doing the same thing over and over. As for his influence, he was somebody that the Tijuana crew (Konnan, Misterioso or both Rey Misterios) looked up to, because he was so spectacular and did such cool things. But he wasn't doing anything new. His trademark moves were something Rayo de Jalisco, Blackman or Tiger Mask were doing, except maybe the tope atomico to the outside (which could be his invention for all I know). He was a great worker and a guy who did spectacular dives (in an aesthetic way), but executed the dives with an "added weight" that made them look like they actually hurt and it wasn't just a nice flip. He was a great worker during decades and had star recognition all over the country, but he wasn't a big enough star to justify his inclusion even in a Mexico only HOF with strict entry criteria. He'd be one of my first entries in a "cool motherfuckers" HOF, though, as he's involved in one of my favourite matches ever (Brazos vs. Astro, Dandy & Popitekus).
  20. At first sight, people can go in a few groups: If they are not, they should be on the WON HOF 1. El Santo 2. El Solitario 3. Mil Mascaras 4. Rene Guajardo 5. Gori Guerrero 6. Tarzan Lopez 7. Ray Mendoza 8. Black Shadow 9. Blue Demon 15. Perro Aguayo 16. Villano III 17. Canek 18. Cavernario Galindo 60. El Hijo Del Santo 67. Cien Caras Second line world HOF level (HOF worthy, but harder to argue) 10. Huracan Ramirez 12. Rayo De Jalisco 13. Karloff Lagarde 19. Charro Aguayo 23. Dos Caras 24. Rolando Vera 25. Raul Romero 26. Anibal 35. Lizmark 50. El Satanico 58. Atlantis 79. Konnan Good for a Mexican HOF, but not for a world HOF 11. Medico Asesino (career was too short) 14. Los Espantos (Espanto III would be like Mike Von Erich on the WON HOF) 20. Alfonso Dantes (held many titles but I don't think he was a really huge star) 21. Fishman 22. Blackie Guzman 30. Firpo Segura 31. Angel Blanco (needs Dr. Wagner with him as a team) 37. Rito Romero 38. Sugi Sito 39. Raul Reyes (good career as a wrestler and successful promoter) 42. Felipe Ham Lee 43. Dory Dixon 33. Wolf Rubinski 52. Espectro I 66. El Signo (only if Texano and Navarro go with him as a package) 80. Dandy 87. Octagon 88. Los Brazos Could be, but I'm not sure 70. Murcielago Velazquez 82. El Gran Davis Had a great career, but I don't see it 32. Gladiator 45. Ringo Mendoza 59. Super Astro 64. Colosso Colosetti 71. Solar I 78. Vampiro (maybe if he hadn't fucked up so many times) 81. Pirata Morgan 89. Emilio Charles Jr. 90. Pierroth Jr. 91. Irma Gonzales 95. Pantera Surena Not in a HOF for his lucha career 34. Satoru Sayama Random old names that don't belong at all, but they are old so some people think they do 27. Alberto Munoz 28. Javier Escobedo (this would be like Hector Garza dying in 1996 before WCW and getting in) 29. Dientes Hernandez 36. Ruben Juarez 41. Antonio Montoro (tremendous Spaniard technical master, but Mexican career was short) 51. Bobby Bonales 53. Bulldog (he's on the "el Santo el Cavernario Blue Demon y el Bulldog" song so people think he was more famous than he was) 54. El Enfermero 55. Halcon Dorado 62. Tigre Ryan 68. Adolfo Bonales 69. Merced Gomez 72. Juanito Diaz 73. El Nazi 74. Emilio Charles 75. Mishima Ota 76. Gorila Ramos 77. Gorila Macias 83. Lobo Negro 84. Jack O'Brien 85. Matzura Matzuda 97. Daniel Aldana 98. Carnicero Butcher 99. Ciclon Veloz 100. Octavio Gaona Very good worker, but no 40. Sangre Chicana 44. Cesar Valentine 47. Tony Salazar 49. El Faraon 56. America Rocca 65. La Fiera 86. Jerry Estrada 92. Chabela Romero 93. Lola Gonzales You are in the list to fill in the women quote 94. Estela Molina You fucking suck 46. Enrique Vera 48. Kato Kung Lee 57. Rayo De Jalisco Jr. 61. Super Muneco 63. Tinieblas Who did you screw to get on the list? 96. Killer Who did you piss off to be left off the list? Negro Casas Dr. Wagner Negro Navarro and El Texano
  21. My last post on WC was on January of 2004, I don't even "lurk" or read that place (regularly or semi-regularly or even once every few months). That doesn't mean I'm not willing to bring the discussion here... This is the original list... 1. El Santo 2. El Solitario 3. Mil Mascaras 4. Rene Guajardo 5. Gori Guerrero 6. Tarzan Lopez 7. Ray Mendoza 8. Black Shadow 9. Blue Demon 10. Huracan Ramirez 11. Medico Asesino 12. Rayo De Jalisco 13. Karloff Lagarde 14. Los Espantos 15. Perro Aguayo 16. Villano III 17. Canek 18. Cavernario Galindo 19. Charro Aguayo 20. Alfonso Dantes 21. Fishman 22. Blackie Guzman 23. Dos Caras 24. Rolando Vera 25. Raul Romero 26. Anibal 27. Alberto Munoz 28. Javier Escobedo 29. Dientes Hernandez 30. Firpo Segura 31. Angel Blanco 32. Gladiator 33. Wolf Rubinski 34. Satoru Sayama 35. Lizmark 36. Ruben Juarez 37. Rito Romero 38. Sugi Sito 39. Raul Reyes 40. Sangre Chicana 41. Antonio Montoro 42. Felipe Ham Lee 43. Dory Dixon 44. Cesar Valentine 45. Ringo Mendoza 46. Enrique Vera 47. Tony Salazar 48. Kato Kung Lee 49. El Faraon 50. El Satanico 51. Bobby Bonales 52. Espectro I 53. Bulldog 54. El Enfermero 55. Halcon Dorado 56. America Rocca 57. Rayo De Jalisco Jr. 58. Atlantis 59. Super Astro 60. El Hijo Del Santo 61. Super Muneco 62. Tigre Ryan 63. Tinieblas 64. Colosso Colosetti 65. La Fiera 66. El Signo 67. Cien Caras 68. Adolfo Bonales 69. Merced Gomez 70. Murcielago Velazquez 71. Solar I 72. Juanito Diaz 73. El Nazi 74. Emilio Charles 75. Mishima Ota 76. Gorila Ramos 77. Gorila Macias 78. Vampiro 79. Konnan 80. Dandy 81. Pirata Morgan 82. El Gran Davis 83. Lobo Negro 84. Jack O'Brien 85. Matzura Matzuda 86. Jerry Estrada 87. Octagon 88. Los Brazos 89. Emilio Charles Jr. 90. Pierroth Jr. 91. Irma Gonzales 92. Chabela Romero 93. Lola Gonzales 94. Estela Molina 95. Pantera Surena 96. Killer 97. Daniel Aldana 98. Carnicero Butcher 99. Ciclon Veloz 100. Octabovia Gaona To that list, as the "next generation" of huge superstars I'd add: Rey Misterio Jr. La Parka Shocker Dr. Wagner Jr. Latin Lover Ultimo Guerrero Mistico Universo 2000 Perro Aguayo Jr.
  22. Tom, I actually agree with what you said regarding the Santo mask matches, but I think you are wrong when it comes to this match. At this point, while Santo was the bigger star in Mexico (the country), Brazo de Oro was the overall bigger star in Mexico (the district) and especially El Toreo. Brazos were the top drawing trio in the country, and had been since about 1986 or 1987. They were main event and semi-main event at El Toreo while Santo was third match from the top. To the common fan going to UWA's arenas it wasn't so clear yet that Santo's mask was untouchable, and Brazo de Oro here was a bigger and stronger guy, way more vicious, and a much bigger star.
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