Dylan Waco

I liked the doc a lot for what it was. I don't know why I was surprised it wasn't more general, but for a narrative heavy doc that didn't even really focus on the guys I liked the most/are the most interested in I thought it was extremely enjoyable. The McManus/Pallo footage looked really sharp and I for one loved the Nagasaki stuff. Dave and I cover it (along with all other things Brit wrestling) on the latest episode of Wrestling Culture for those who are interested.

"Here's how to execute offense so that it looks like it wouldn't hurt an amoeba." "Here's how to horribly botch a hilo and almost die"

Great, three guys I never wanted to see in a WWE ring again. They should be brought in to feud with 3MB

I don't like Murdoch nearly as much as Will, Phil or Dean, but I do think at his best he was a great wrestler. I HATE the Adonis/Murdoch team though they do have some matches I like (for the record I don't care for the Brisco's match that finished so high on the WWF Set the first go around, but I LOVE the match the team had from Boston that is available on handheld). I really like the Windham match, but I don't think it's an out of this world match like some do and a lot of the stuff I don't like in the match is on Dick. On the other hand I really love the Inoki match referenced above. Hell I really like the Jumbo matches on the AJPW Set though I know they were divisive. I thought he was great in the 9/17/87 tag, as was in every one of the six-mans where he was teaming with Orton/Hall in NJPW. The best Reed match is really, really good. Et. Murdoch's stooging and facial expressions aren't for everyone, but when he was hitting on all cylinders he was awfully good. Great look that translated well to his work and one of those strange guys who will make me say "holy shit did he just do that?" at least once in nearly every match. Also the Cattle Branding might be one of my three or four favorite moves ever.

Another thing I love about Funk is that pretty much my favorite kind of match in wrestling is veteran v. random undercard guy, where veteran decides the match is going to be good no matter where it is on the card, so they are gonna do a ton of neat shit and make their match stand out. Funk's pretty much a master of that match whether it be v. Eddy, Ricky Santana and Scott Hall in 89 or Funk v. Poffo, Scott McGhee or Wrestling II in the WWF or even teaming with Buck v. Erik Watts and Bary Houston in 94.

I always liked that too. The "you've got to be fucking kidding me" look on his face is classic. I have too many favorites to pick just one, but I really do love it when he dances a jig right in front of Dusty as he's about to burst through the door at WarGames 94.

I forget Jerome, did you ever see Stars n Stripes v. Arn/Vader?

ON top of the awesome playlist John set up, here is Breaks/Young David (Davey Boy Smith) match I talked up. God damn I love Breaks

Arn did comedic stooge selling all the time. It was a big part of his repetoire and he was great at it. I don't care about the Flair flip. It's a signature spot and signature spots are part of pro-wrestling. I don't really think they affect the integrity of a match. The best skill you can have as a pro-wrestler is to be able to do your schtick within an otherwise serious match. McManus, Breaks, Satanico, Fujiwara, Arn, Funk were all great at this. I agree with all of this. That's pretty much a who's who of guys who I think are "holy shit" level great at that aspect of working. Watching Jim Breaks matches for the first time in forever last night I kept thinking to myself "god damn this motherfucker was good" and a lot of it was him doing variations of his bit catered to opponent/setting.

Okay, everyone knows Funk is my favorite wrestler ever. I also think he's the GOAT. I can see an argument for several others and I don't want to shit on anyone else or minimize them in an attempt to point to the things I like about Funk, so instead I'll try and talk about why I think he's so great. For starters - and this is huge to me - I think you can make a case that Terry is a top five all time working face and a top five all time working heel. In fact if we are talking peak v. peak I don't think it's really arguable. I'd go so far as to say that Terry at his peak as a babyface in Japan is the single best sympathetic babyface I've ever seen. Not only can he take a beating and sell, but he was incredible at timing hope spots and comebacks. His little strut around punch comeback was great shit particularly when it was nothing more than a flurry on the front wave of a storm. The man could bleed, but during that period especially he really knew how to make a blade job mean something. He'd give you some massive splat bumps and they would always mean something too. He could sell a body part, whether or not it was being stabbed or actually worked over in a traditional fashion. Just little looks and body movement could trigger the crowd to go fucking nuts. When he finally fired all the way back it was always after things had been milked to the absolute peak moment - timing wise there really aren't many you could even put in the discussion with Funk. He was a guy with a Hulk Hogan level entrance, who could work underneath like Ricky Morton, but when he made his comeback he was teeing off like a guy who you believed could legit kill any heel on Earth. I love Morton, Rey, Steamboat, et. as babyfaces but Funk in AJPW is the best I've ever seen at that role. I'd also go so far as to say that Terry at his peak as a heel in 89 was very possibly the best heel I've ever seen. He was certainly the most interesting. I've said this many times, but it was Flair v. Funk feud that made me a fan for life. Funk was a guy that got over jealous, craze, psychotic, who's sense of pride actually made him the most dangerous guy in the world - even though he was just an off the radar, semi-retired guy, with no credibility with that audience until WrestleWar. I love, love, love Funk in 89 in every respect, as he was a guy who was having awesome sprints with Eddie Guerrero trying to get him a job on tv, wild squashes v. bums like Cougar Jay and of course the awesome Flair matches which are among my favorites ever. Every match was a perfect representation of his character and he would switch gears mid-match to reflect that so easily. As versatility goes I think the conversation is sort of odd. You've got NintendoLogic talking about how his work as a technician has been overblown but who the fuck talks about Terry as a technician? Now I happen to believe that he was very sharp working holds, very good at building them to a climax, very surprising in the offense he could bust out (I really like the Terry/Dory v. Caras/Mascaras tag as an example of Terry being ahead of his time/versatile in ways you might not expect years before "crazy man" schtick took over), et. But I don't know that Terry is a guy talked up as great in that regard by very many people. No clue who is hyping that aspect of his work to the point where it would be "overblown." My view is that Terry was very good in that respect, at times great, but it's not the defining trait of his career. If we had more 70's footage? I suspect things might be different. One thing I really love about Terry that doesn't get talked about that much is the range of his characters even within the realm of what is commonly thought of as his "crazy old man" period. We know Terry worked different as a babyface at points - sometimes he was a top dog level technician, some times he was Ricky Morton with more credibility, late in his career he was the hardcore legend (sometimes as a enforcer threat, sometimes as a desperate old man fighting for honor and glory). But he had really incredibly range as a heel. If you look at how he worked during the WWF run it's different than how he worked in Puerto Rico which is different from how he worked in WCW in 89 which is different from how he worked as traveling lunatic working every promotion on Earth in 94 and so on. I don't think this is me imagining things either. If you watch something like the Martel match from Puerto Rico, Terry is really over the top on level that is almost entirely comedic. v. Hogan the comedic aspects were there, but he was a guy tailoring things around shortcuts to feed the inevitable Hogan comebacks. The Flair matches were obviously different and I already covered them. In 94 he was a hired hand traveling the wrestling landscape as the last outlaw called in to kill off annoying old challengers to the Southern wrestling family throne. You could keep going. Another thing about Funk is I am not sure I have ever seen him have a boring match. I'm sure someone could point to one I wouldn't disagree with, but I can't recall it offhand. I seem to recall Will once telling me that the Terry Set is one of the only set's he's ever done where he wasn't sick of watching the same guy by the time it was over. He always works hard and makes things at least entertaining. When his body broke down too much to really bump or cut a pace, he just turned on the schtick and chaos. He and Lawler had several really good matches after 2000 which is fucking amazing if you think about it. Even in horrible 2000 WCW his matches didn't suck and everything sucked during that period. A byproduct of never having boring matches is that we are still finding awesome Funk matches. There are really good Funk matches/performances from SMW and ECW I find while watching for those sets that didn't even make Will's mammoth Funk Set. There are WWF matches of his I've discovered in the last six months that didn't make that set that are very good. We'll likely be finding good Terry stuff for years, including really impressive shit like his back to back matches in 97 v. Sabu and Douglas in title defenses where he actually flipped and worked heel v. Douglas because they were in Pittsburgh. As far as great matches? If someone wants to say Funk's best matches aren't as good as the best matches from some of the other GOATC's I would listen to it. If someone wanted to say he doesn't have the depth of great matches that Flair has I'd almost certainly agree. If someone said Terry only had one or two or even a handful of great matches? I'm not buying that, but then this may just end up with another debate about "good v. great" and I'm not sure I really want the thread to go down that road. What I would say is that Funk v. Hansen, Funk v. Lawler and Funk v. Flair GAB 89 are in my absolute top tier of singles matches. I think Terry was a tremendously great tag worker at his peak and there are several tags of his I would rate very, very highly. I thought he was incredible in Wargames 94 which is a match I love. On first watch I thought his random match with Tony St. Clair in 93 was great though I haven't gone back to watch it again. I think Terry/Jumbo is a great match and it's probably not even a top 25 Funk match IMO. I don't really think Terry is hurting for great matches. Al mentioned the fact that Funk didn't stay around any place very line as a sort of theoretically weakness. To me that was a real world strength. OJ is the one who coined this, but Terry is the ultimate loser leaves town wrestler. He was in somewhere for a while, got over huge, made you believe in him 100 percent, had his big match/feud/rivalry and was gone before he got stale. He always, always, always left you wanting more. There are a lot of guys I think are absolutely great wrestlers, but who hung around somewhere too long, or were involved in something that was run in the ground, or got lazy because they were comfortable or whatever. That NEVER happened with Terry Funk. I'll admit I'm biased toward Funk. My dad loves him and grew up watching his dad's promotion. He is the guy who made me a fan for life, when I watched him up close in 89 killing himself on house shows and tying bags on Flair's head. But Terry Funk is a guy that has always made me care about his matches and believe in what he was selling. I'm not saying he's the only one who I can say that about, but the list is short

Thanks for adding that. It's a good compliment to the show.

The clips from the Brisco and Chavo match are awesome. I really like the Race title change too.

I have house guests over today which is fucking up the monster post I want to make, but I'll get to it. I would say that I see and understand Loss' criticisms and they aren't unusual but I don't care about them at all. The biggest difference between Funk and others all timers to me is that Funk can always make me care about him and his match. There are reasons for this that I'll get into later. I'll also second Ditch in the sense that I think Funk was a master role player and as versatile as they come.

http://www.talkshoe.com/talkshoe/web/talkC...2658&cmd=tc Episode 33 of the Wrestling Culture podcast! Dave and I are joined by wrestling historian and author John Lister to discuss all things British wrestling. Tons of things covered including the new BBC wrestling documentary, the Mick McManus/Jackie Pallo feud, the greatness of Jim Breaks, the unique British wrestling business model, Joint Promotions as a quasi-NWA, the Observer HoF candidacy of Big Daddy, quality modern British wrestlers and tons of other stuff. I can't do this show justice with a write up, so accept this show as our holiday gift to you and give it a listen.

I won't dispute that the match worked in getting The Shield over huge. But I think you can distinguish between a match that's effective from a booking standpoint and one that holds up to repeated viewings. I don't disagree with this at all, but that's not the point. The point is it was a WWE match that was anticipated, had good action, had a different feel from the average main event and had a satisfying finish (on multiple levels). A match like that is not going to be heavily criticized or critiqued in the immediate. In the rear view? Sure.

When I think of GOAT's now I tend to think of Funk, Lawler, Tenryu and Casas. They have the versatility, peak and longevity. I wouldn't knock anyone who has Flair at one and I still regard him highly relative to some, but like Loss sees more flaws in Lawler with time, I see more flaws with Flair.

My advice is not to cite anyone, ever as a match rating authority. In this day and age the access is there. Watch the matches and give thoughts yourself. I think Matt's point was more to point to quality matches that Lawler had in WWF though I don't want to speak for him.

I think this is interesting because you are so high on Lawler v. Snowman

Well that was a bizarre little diversion. Fuckin Dave Sullivan.

Ambrose is odd in that there are moments when he hits things just perfectly and projects better than literally anyone in modern wrestling. And then there are moments where he is indeed borderline Edgeish. In general I think he's far more good than bad, but I get the criticism.

I said in my post that I thought you could find obvious flaws with it (guys disappearing, suspect selling at times, et) but everyone came out looking better and the right guys won decisively - you aren't going to find many people tripping over themselves to shit on a modern WWE match, with good action and those results.

I hate Triple Threat matches enough where I would seriously consider selling my tickets to Mania if that was the announced main event.

Finally got around to watching Night One of KOT so I figured I'd post my thoughts on it here since for some reason any attempt I make to post in the Chikara thread at DVDVR is denied. The Colony vs. Team SENDAI Girls I enjoyed this for it was and it suited the setting well as an opener. I'm not a big fan of male/female matches as a rule because they strike me as A. really deliberate attempts to be at the vanguard of a social movement B. creepy exercises where women hating men can live vicariously through the men striking the women. Having said that this was worked well enough where it didn't feel like it slipped completely into either, even if A. is the general vibe I get off of Chikara's booking these sort of things. Fast paced, quick match, with some nice spots, but nowhere near long enough to approach overkill. I was a bit annoyed Satomura didn't get more in, but what she got in looked good. There is one funny sequence where Satomura takes a nasty (sounding anyway) kick to the face, but when she returns the favor to Green Ant he protects himself in the most "I really don't want to get hard" way. I don't blame the guy, but it was one of the more unintentionally amusing things I can remember seeing. This actually had me thinking I was really going to like this show..... The Batiri v. 3.0/Gran Akuma I don't "get" The Batiri. In fact I don't even know what I'm supposed to be "getting." I literally don't know what the gimmick is. That's the thing about Chikara. They are brilliant at catering to their niche and have been able to develop and expand it to the point where I think they are the best promotion in the world relative to the capital they have. But I have no fucking clue how I would ever be able to figure out what the fuck is going on. Anyway I liked the first half or so of this and then it just really fell apart. For comedy spots on the first half of the show, one of the Batiri dudes trying to choke someone with a piece of toilet paper that broke in half was actually pretty funny and not in a way that undermined my interest in the match. I like 3.0 a good bit and they came across as really larger than life here, with their bigger spots looking good. As time went on it became obvious to me that Akuma is fucking horrible, or at least was horrible in this match. There were multiple times where he seemed lost or was just wandering around out of place and as a result lots of stuff seemed off. Then the finish was bullshit. Half of this was fun at least. F.I.S.T. v. Team Osaka Pro God this was like the match from hell. I understand that there is a market for this, but Taylor and Gargano doing "aw shucks ain't that funny" bits with Japanese guys in clown suits is not my idea of good wrestling. I actually really tried to like this, but stuff like the drop down/leapfrog/dropkick spot calling bit is just not something that works for me in this context. Why the fuck did this have to go so long? Is this a wrestling tourney people are trying to win, or an improv comedy show? I found myself asking that a lot during this show which is probably why I will never be a Chikara fan. The Swarm v. Quack/Toyota/Jigsaw This was perfectly enjoyable as a showcase/glorified squash. I'm no Toyota fan, but as someone who shows up and gets her shit in she has value. Jigsaw and Quack are almost always fun to watch and Quack got to do some tricked out shit so I was happy. The finishing combo looked really good also. Hard to take Quack seriously as the "hard ass" slowly turning heel or whatever the hell was going on at the finish, but that's not a real complaint. The Throwbacks v. Team JWP I didn't hate this quite as much as the F.I.S.T/Osaka match, largely because Touchdown looked good and worked hard and the wrestling that was done around the comedy was better, but this was another Hipster Comedy Jam performance for the most part. This one was funnier at times (I liked Classic walking out during the baseball bit), but I can't imagine ever wanting to see this again. The main thing I took from this was that Mr. Touchdown is pretty good or at least seems it on the surface level. Classic submitting to the torture rack was either really funny or really stupid depending on your perspective. Perhaps both is the answer. The Spectral Envoy v. Tito Santana/The Mysterious Hansome Stranger/Mihara Inoffensive but boring match. Tito's flying forearm looked good. In fact he looked better than I would have guessed period. My daughter continues to like Hallowicked. Not much else of note. Mike Bennett/Young Bucks v. Meng/Barbarian/Warlord I remember reading lots of people shit on this after the fact, talking about how terrible the old guys were and how boring the match was. I assume the real issue with this match is that it was actually a wrestling match first and not a competition for yuck yucks, because I thought this was actually pretty good all things considered. Bucks and Bennett were really good as the douchey young guys, attacking with numbers and cheapshots. I didn't think any of the Faces of Pain spots looked bad. In fact I thought some of them looked really good. Meng looked much sharper than I would have guessed, strikes looked nice, sold really well for the limbwork, the Tongan spot was awesome. Barb is probably the most full time of those guys at this point and he may have looked the "worst" and he looked fine. I thought Warlord's powerslam was actually pretty sick looking, though it may have been helped by the fact that it followed Green Ant's cowering response to the Satomura kick and Dasher playing slow pitch air softball. Bennett bumped big time in this. I thought the finish came out of the blue, but it would have probably worked okay if the crowd had been more into this. I guess the match needed something like a mid-bout Electric Slide contest to get their approval. Too Cold Scorpio/Tommy Dreamer/Jerry Lynn v. 123 Kid/Aldo Montoya/Tatanka I would have absolutely loved this if not for the remote control shit. I get that it's over, I get that it's part of the "internal psych" of Chikara, I can even see the humor in it and appreciate the fact that these guys executed it well enough (well the commentator sucked cock at it, but whatever). But seeing that shit happen in an otherwise solid, well worked match, with both teams working seriously is just trash to me. I really liked most of the rest of this. The Kid/Lynn exchange was really sharp and a nice throwback. Speaking of which Aldo's "cheating" ala Jusin Credible was comedic psych that really worked for me. Scorp looked fucking awesome. Actually the primary thing I learned here is that Scorp and Tatanka could probably have a tremendous singles match and I really want to see it. This was a good match with one terrible sequence....which kinda keeps it from being a good match. Over all the presentation is really good and the crowd is really excited and that helps their shows a lot every time. I actually didn't hate it and I'll watch Night 2 and 3, but really this just confirms to me that Chikara isn't a promotion for me, even as I acknowledge it is a promotion for a certain type of fan.

One thing worth noting was how smart the Ziggler/Cena match was worked. I know Cena lost because of AJ, but it was a match set up to make Ziggler look like an equal. You expect Dolph to take ten thousand insane bumps in a match like that and he really didn't. He took a few shots, but nothing out of the ordinary or particularly crazy, which is how he needed work to look like a guy on Cena's level.