Dylan Waco

Christian v. Orton series was good but overrated. It's not even a top three Christian series since he's been back in the WWE

Jacques Rougeau Raymond Rougeau I am nowhere near as high on the Rougeau's as some, but they are a team I think is overrated but still good. HHH is a guy I think is overrated and not really good, aside from random moments here or there. Jacques always struck me as the lesser athlete, but maybe he was just working his gimmick to perfection. He was great at hamming it up and while I thought it got over the top at times, it generally worked. Rougeau's also had some of the all time catchy theme songs in wrestling history, whereas I have always found Trips themes to be really grating and that is coming from a Motorhead fan. I would like to see some pre-WWF work from both guys, but Jacques was really great as the guy riding on the coattails of Oulette in the Quebeckers, so I have no problem putting him ahead of HHH. Ray had that cool spinning back kick, but in the absence of more meat I will go with HHH on account of lacking evidence. Brian Blair I would take Brunzell over HHH by a mile but that's not the question. I remember Blair being a passable guy, maybe even a quality hand, who never really did shit. In a just World that sentence would be the one we would use to describe HHH's peak years, but he got chances. Blair didn't. HHH wins. EZ Money I have seen almost no EZ Money indy run, assuming it exist in large number. I am trying to remember if I have commented on him already on this thread. Anyhow I liked Hot Commodity, but Hamrick was really the guy who should have been working and he was the second. I can forgive the same sin of the original DX, because Rude was injured, but still it's distracting to see Hamrick (and Rude) at ringside knowing they would be better than the guys in the ring. Having said that, Money was a fun spot machine and the act was finer tuned than a lot of the ECW acts from the period. I really liked his finisher where he just walked away from a suplex sort of flopping the person down wildly. I also thought he was really good in his brief WCW run. Honestly there is not enough to put him above HHH, but he's a guy who almost certainly would have been better had he stayed around somewhere. Shinzei Shinzaki I have a fuck ton of Minchinoku Pro I need to watch and one day I'm going to watch all the FMW I can as well. In the past I always liked Shinzaki more than other smart fans. Enjoyed watching him do highspots, thought the monk gimmick was kind of cool, thought he was fun in brawls, et. The Bret matches were not great, but were very good and I remember liking the Barry Horowitz stuff also. I just cannot envision HHH doing anything compelling with Horowitz and I figure he would have sucked the life out of Bret. Maxx Payne Extra points for using the Fujiwara armbar as a finisher. Additional points for being part of the awesome matches with Foley v. Nasty Boys, including the spot where he almost murdered Knobbs with a suplex. Payne probably should have had a career at least as good as Balls Mahoney, but instead he disappeared. For phony wrestling rockers, he was better than Van Hammer and JT Southern which counts for something. I suspect I could justify putting him above HHH with enough footage, but until that footage comes...

Robbie Eagle/The Stro My memory of Robbie Eagle in letter mans jacket challenging for Beat The Champ is that it was pretty entertaining tv. I never saw the Gorgeous George III gimmick but it sounds bad on paper. Maestro actually could have been a lot of fun as a gimmick but this was WCW. Realistically I don't see anyway you could take Eagle over HHH unless there is a shit ton of quality stuff I'm totally unaware of. Lance Storm HHH is better than Storm. Storm is a workrate wrestler who's spots don't like that impressive or crisp. He has unbelievably bad strikes and is generally the loosest wrestler I've ever seen. It is possible that he added more to the miracle street fight with Dreamer in 99 than HHH did to the Foley street fight in 00, but that is the only area off the top of my head where Storm was better. Well, I guess his parlaying his monotone/boring demeanor into an aspect of his gimmick is better than HHH being monotone and boring while trying to sell it as "cerebral" or "intense." Still, HHH had some offense that you might believe would hurt a premature infant, Storm does not. Devon Storm/Crowbar I always liked Storm as jumpy guy with a mullet in god awful gear thinking he was the coolest guy on Earth and taking crazed splat bumps. I have not seen a Devon Storm v. Ace Darling match in a long time so I have no clue how those hold up. As Crowbar you got the feeling he could have had some good matches with a better set up, but when David Flair is your tag partner what are you going to do? I would be interested to see if HHH could have been effective as a guy getting squashed by jacked up meathead. I don't remember the Warrior squash being nearly as good as Taz killing Storm. I imagine there are some "indy classics" with Storm that would rate with the second tier HHH matches. I guess I should take HHH here, because I don't even think a miracle could result in Storm having a good hour long match, but it feels dirty to pick him in this match up. 911 I never saw anything in 911. He did take a good bump for Taz once and his act of killing guys with chokeslams, was better than burying guys with pedigrees, but by ever reasonable metric HHH was better. The Blue Meanie I will say that Meanie was a much better comedic sidekick for long haired guy with superkick finisher, than HHH was. His team with Nova was surprisingly competent and a large part of that had to do with Meanie who had some really fun "I'm a fat fuck, who's a good athlete, but not THAT good an athlete" spots. HHH's two strengths are bleeding and bumping. He may have been a better bumper than Meanie (though fat guy missing moonsault always has a nice splat sound to it), but no way he was a better bleeder as anyone who ever saw Big Don mafia hit on Meanie can attest to. HHH had better chances and as much as I joke was better equipped to have meaningful matches. But Meanie had more than his fair share of "fun" outings and a much higher percentage of them than HHH did relative to their careers (It is also theoretically possible that Lady Alexandria covering him in whip cream and licking it off is more vile than HHH fucking corpse of Katie Vick though that is neither here nor there). I guess HHH was better...maybe. Iron Sheik HHH never had matches near as good as the Slaughter matches. Crazed, drugged up Sheik is sad, but HHH is a guy who's one advantage over a lot of people he is otherwise worse than is "he's got the epic matches." Well here he can't even win that. Sheik had good offense, the clubs were cool, he was a much better heel, his rambling promos were actually entertaining, et. This isn't a hard one.

Santino Marella I actually think Santino - while still very early in his career - is almost certainly better than HHH in the big picture sense, and I think there is a good deal of evidence that he is a better worker within the confines of what he is given. Santino is the most charismatic guy in the entire company, over as fuck with the live crowds and with casual fans and works a comedy gimmick in a way that makes him a lovable underdog people want to see win rather than an annoying nuisance you want to see die. His recent gimmick of "guy who is not really competitive in singles matches, but mysteriously becomes a survivor/force to be reckoned with in multi-man environments" is something that could easily be fucked up and yet he plays it perfectly and is totally believable. Far more believable than angry HHH slobbering around like an epileptic St. Bernard. He has a decent range with his offense as his comedy spots work, he’s gotten over the Cobra as a legit finish, but he also can surprise with more legit looking stuff that gets a reaction. At this point this year he’s probably one of the five best guys in the WWE and you could actually make a case he’s number two and this is the only time he’s ever really been given a chance to do anything. I see no reason why Santino couldn’t work WWE main event style, though I suspect he would be more likely to work out his career as a comedic Ricky Morton type, which frankly – with the right push – could place him well above HHH when all is said and done. Vladimir Kozlov Never really had a chance. I think he had some of the same problems of HHH, though he had mannerisms and body language that I think was more befitting his act. Koz was too loose to work a real “shooter” gimmick and too robotic to work as a real hybrid. He’s another person who I think might have gotten it in a different era, but this wasn’t his era. HHH is better. Kid Kash Oh I think Kash is obviously better, and had he stayed in the WWE – a place that seemed to temper his worst instincts – I think this would be self-evident. As a spot machine, Kash was not upper tier, but was really good and was particularly good in spirited little sprints. He was sort of the ideal Nitro worker, it’s just he wasn’t working on Nitro. I don’t think Kash was that much “worse” than HHH in 2000 which is allegedly the Game’s magnum opus. As a Southern indy/WWE guy he’s been pretty great as the cranky old vet, stiffing dudes and just generally being a douche. Watching SAW I doubt there is a more over the top heel in wrestling when it comes to fucking with live crowds. True HHH has been fucking with live crowds for years via the hypnotic trances his boring matches often leave people in, but that’s not what I meant. Kash as heel ace of SAW was a more compelling heel ace than HHH has ever been. Watching Kash threaten to beat redneck women in the front row of a show sponsored by a bail bondsman > HHH threatening to “end an era” by beating a crippled bald guy. Roderick Strong I don’t think Roddy is very good at this point, but I did like him to a degree several years back. In particular I liked him around the time he popped up in TNA which is….odd. Really this is a choice between whether or not you would rather watch a 20 minute plus masturbatory “classic” built around near falls, chops and backbreaker variations, or a masturbatory “classic” based around ego of a guy who’s career peak consisted of occupying space while Mick Foley dove head first in thumb tacks. I am not sure I have a reasonable answer to this question. Jack Evans I like Evans better because he’s one of the few spot machines that lets the spots speak for themselves and isn’t near fall obsessed, indy “superstar.” He comes across as a guy more interested in doing cool shit than a guy trying to get MOTY accolades from the Figure Four board and I appreciate that. He’s also nearly died multiple times on lunatic bumps, which always wins bonus points from me. HHH is probably more likely to be involved in a match that ebbs and flows with traditional structure which is something I am a fan of, but HHH is not particularly good at being compelling in that setting. I also think Evans would have made a better DX member as his breakdancing around to the entrance song would have had a real Flip Dawg from White Boyz feel that HHH could never hope to replicate. I would take a good rep of a style I don’t like as much than a mediocre rep of a style I like more. Alex Shelley I’m not really a Shelley fan and never have been. I think TJP does the same act better and Shelley strikes me as an obvious over actor in a wrestling universe filled with over actors. For overacted segments involving aging talents, the Papparazi production segments might have been better than HHH bringing Shawn back for Summerfest/Shawn superkicking the little girl. Shelley getting carried by Hero a couple years back was a bigger success than Punk v. HHH but that feels like an unfair comparison. That Shelley v. Lethal match was as bad an indy strokefest match as I’ve ever seen and surely a worse sin than all but the most egregious HHH abortions. It is possible I am missing some good Shelley ROH work in my calculus, but I lean toward HHH. Jimmy Garvin (mostly because I'm curious as to why you think HHH is a poor man's version of him...yeah, Garvin is obviously better, but I don't see the similarities) Garvin is obviously better as you note. Not sure that Garvin is really the best comparison for HHH. My initial thought was “cliché heavy promo guy, with pampered elitist gimmick. Largely known for his association with two females, in which it is generally agreed that the first was more artistically successful, with the second being smarter for long term happiness. Third or four best guy in major stable that has been highly regarded historically. Known for unprofessional behavior, grumpiness when expected to job and help put others over. Reliance on methodical spots/pacing during heel control segments. Remembered fondly for angle where he defended honor of father figure after heinous attack.” I think those comparisons work, but there may be a better comp. Certainly Garvin’s feud with wifebeater trainer was better than HHH’s feud with trainee wifebeater for example.

HHH isn't among the abject worst and that's not my narrative. It is one thing to say I'd rather watch X than HHH and usually when I invoke that it is because I think there is not enough volume to merit saying X is clearly better and to illustrate the fact that I think HHH is boring as piss to the point where even people who may be "inferior" in terms of memorable matches/moments are more entertaining to watch. Rather than tell me that I have underrated HHH and overrated other guys, tell me how I am underrating HHH and whom I am overrating.

Warrior's promos really terrified me as a kid. HHH's promos really put me to sleep as a teen/adult

Angelo Mosca Jr. Mosca wasn't any good at anything. Lance Von Erich Lance wasn't very good at anything, though fake Von Erich v. fake McMahon is an interesting comparison. Savannah Jack Fuck I don't even remember seeing a Savannah Jack match. Norman The Lunatic Fuck it, I think this is pretty close. Sure Bastion Booger was trash and according to EricR he's a committed racist, but he's a guy who's glimpses from Stampede are a ton of fun. Really athletic for a big guy. I liked the Norman act a lot as a kid and was surprised by how much I thought it worked when I rewatched the WCW stuff a few years back. He probably would have made a better mentally challenged person for HHH to denigrate than Dinsmore and I like Dinsmore. Not sure about this one actually. Jake "The Milkman" Milliman I like Milliman a good bit as far as jobbers go, particularly in tags, but there is not enough substance to merit a case for him. Buck Zumhofe Zumhofe wasn't very good and was lame as shit, sort of like forty year old men coming to the ring to rapcore and pointing to their crotches in a desperate attempt to relive their glory years. Actually that's not really fair as Buck's boombox was more timely, than aforementioned rap core. Buck was able to carry Mr. Electricity Steve Regal to a few above average matches which is something there is zero chance HHH could have ever done as Regal would have laid a trap for him that he would have fallen right into. Buck also had at least one cool match with Billy Robinson and the Heenan feud was really awesome. The thing about the boombox is that it was a heartfelt object that you could buy Buck being crushed about the loss of. It probably costs him a months pay or more and it was the best hope he had to score with one of the rats or look cool for all the young kids in the neighborhood. What did HHH have? A sledgehammer? You can't really do much with that. I guess they could do an angle where The Colons, Hunico and Epico run a train on Stephanie which would feed the racism of Vince and co and is about the same level on the show as Heenan v. Buck in theory (though that was a hot feud that drew money), but who here really believes HHH gives a shit about Stephanie and how would that really hurt Trip? I mean this is the WWE that's a storyline that would probably result in him getting more "cred" with the boys and being pushed as a man of the people, Huey Long type, willing to share the wealth with the peasantry. Absent the equivalent of a boombox, this is closer than it should be. Ron Bass I always liked Bass more than most. Liked the spur angle, liked his NWA run in 85 or 86 or whenever the hell it was. Problem is I can't recall a great deal in the way of matches. I literally can remember more Lee Scott matches than Ron Bass matches. To be fair the majority of HHH matches I recall weren't very good, but still this is a problem for Bass. Firebreaker Chip Someone help me out here, where else did he work and under what gimmick? I know Johnny is an HHH fan and deliberately tossed out the names he thought were most absurd, but I want to be fair here. Rene Goulet Oh I really loved him in that tag from the New Japan Set. He is a guy I could see really enjoying if I went back and watched enough stuff as his whole look and demeanor encompass a lot of the things I like about that era of wrestling. But I have not seen/do not remember enough to definitively place him above HHH.

Stevie Ray Terrible wrestler. Possibly my pick for worst of all time, setting aside your obvious freakshows and maybe Abyss. I mean the Pedigree is a relatively easy move to make look good as HHH has proved. How the fuck do you fuck it up? Steve McMichael Mongo wasn't very good, but he might have been okay with time. There were things he did okay in the ring and I think as a heel he understood the basic concepts of what he was supposed to do. HHH was better for a number of reasons, but I don't think Mongo is a bottom of the barrel wrestler for whatever that is worth. Sam Houston I am actually a reasonably big fan of Houston as gangly guy falling over himself while taking and executing basic offense. He was the perfect JTTS type and truth be told I would rather watch him get whipped around the watch HHH wrestle. I am not sure he was better than HHH though. As far as guys that looked half trained and had a unique charm, Whipwreck was a lot better. I think Mikey is easily better than Trip, but not sure a poor man's Mikey is better than Trip. Johnny Gunn/Salvatore Sincere/Tom Brandi Brandi was a Z-Man clone. I am not a Z-Man fan. The Sandman Already covered. JT Smith Well I'm pretty much the World's biggest J.T. Smith fan. In the early days of ECW he was always willing to work hard, take lunatic bumps, bring some fun offense, et. By the time the FBI kicked off he was an incredibly entertaining promo. Unlike HHH's body Michaels, his "he's supposed to suck!" gimmick was real and not something apologists tossed up to defend the fading talents of their hero. Was really good at working Southern tag formula with the FBI, or a more high spot heavy style. I liked his feud with Hack Myers a lot. His run was really short. Not even four years really. And he lacks the epic matches and the week to week tv to fill the void. There is no way in hell that I can put HHH over Smith, but I can't really justify putting J.T. over him either. Butch Reed Already covered. George South South is one of my favorite jobbers. Even now I really enjoy watching him heel little kids and call them ugly before parading around in his Jesus Reigns underwear to confused looks from the locals. He had one Flair tv match that really made me believe and it wasn't all Flair. I've seen him live enough times over the years to appreciate him on a level beyond just fun jobber, but I've also seen him shit it up something fierce. HHH begrudgingly

Just edited my top ten to include a super fun "high stakes" six-man tag with Lawler and friends v. local hooligans. I doubt anyone will enjoy it as much as me, but I thought it really came across as a big deal and the work was really well done

Buff Bagwell I think this is fairly lateral, though Bagwell's reliance on female relative to get him out of working hard was really misapplied relative to HHH's similar efforts. Bagwell's early babyface work was actually pretty good and a lot better than HHH's early work. I really enjoyed him as Scorpio's uncool white friend trying to act hip to black culture and failing miserably albeit in a lovable way. As Buff he was basically HHH level worker without the push. I can envision Buff having perfectly fun matches with Foley for example, but it wouldn't be because of Buff, though Buff's taunts and schtick were considerably better than HHH's so maybe he would have added a bit more. I think I will take Buff by a hair because his double fisting of Coors Lights in a local high school gym the last time I saw him work was the highlight of the night. Nicolai Volkoff Volkoff was pretty bad. I struggle to think of anything he did well. Russian National Anthem bit > water spitting though. David Flair I actually saw a couple of USA pro shows where Flair looked respectable. I mean HHH was clearly better, but Flair's suplex was better and I think he might have turned into a pretty good chickenshit heel if he hadn't been such an embarrassment out of the gates. Tatanka Already covered. Wahoo McDaniel (you clearly hate him since you showed no love towards the Manny strap match so compare that strap match to the Rock strap match) Even in the overrated strap match with Manny, Wahoo showed more than HHH and he was decades past his prime. Wahoo is one of those guys like Tommy Rich that is almost certainly a top 100 all time worker though there is not as much footage as you would hope to support it. Stiffest, toughest, grittiest guy ever. Even years past his prime those Manny matches and matches with Curt were really good. And that Bock match is soooo fucking good. I literally don't think HHH could ever dream of having a match that awesome. I would kill to find the treasure trove of Wahoo matches, I would rather be killed than go back and watch big chunks of HHH's career. Rhino Strange case of a guy who peaked early. If ECW had stayed open I suspect Rhino might have actually turned into a really good wrestler. As it stood he was remarkably good at working these four-seven minutes sprints where he would give his opponents enough and then cut them off with some really vicious looking move. This carried over into the early parts of his WWE run too. Very underrated as a base. He really didn't look out of place v. really good wrestlers even if he was always a passenger. He fizzled out and has been a whole lot of nothing for years, but I like the best period of Rhino better than the best period of HHH Ultimate Warrior HHH is better, but the urgency and excitement Warrior could bring to matches is something HHH has never really had. Warrior getting blown up seconds into half of his matches is worse than HHH not being able to work compelling control segments to save his life. I do like delusional Warrior promos better, than delusional HHH promos though. Charlie Haas Already covered. Shelton Benjamin Already covered. Leo Burke (for Dave Musgrave) We have enough Leo to know that he was a very good wrestler. Really good at controlling a match, selling and working from defensive position. Even well past his prime Leo in the Maritimes was still a very good hand that could have fun studio matches every time out. I also am a mark for journeyman types and while Leo was an ace in the Maritimes and elsewhere at points, the novelty of watching him work "fun" matches is something HHH could never really replicate.

Brody had good strikes?

Otto Wanz I have more respect for buying the AWA title from Verne, than fucking daughter of promoter, even if it is a far shittier business move. Wanz was actually a pretty agile fat man. I've only seen a handful of his matches and his rep isn't very good. But German PN News sure seems like it would be more fun to watch than HHH if nothing else. One Man Gang Come on this is Gang in a cakewalk. Dude was really fucking good in his prime. Total bump machine for a guy his size and he could goofball it with the best of them but without cheapening his status as a huge fat guy that could crush you like a bug. Even post-prime in the WWF and even ECW he could add a lot to his matches. I'd probably go out of my way to see an OMG match right now actually. Also not sure Akeem gimmick was more racist than HHH in blackface, but it was a more effective use of the over the top racial nonsense and more sustained, which means HHH may not have the natural edge even via the metric of amusingly offensive stuff. Bruiser Brody Eh, fuck Brody. The best part of his act was his entrance. Once in a while he would surprise you with a performance where he gave a little, but if you are going to be an overrated, politicker, with over inflated sense of importance, and tendency to bury guys, I would prefer you at least bump a little in the ring. Carl Oulette I love Oulette as he is a fat guy with crazy offense. Yeah he was chinlocky as hell at times, but the one time he got a chance to main event he was pretty awesome and had a match about as good as any HHH match I've ever seen. Really awesome highspots of course and also a crazed bumper. Would have liked to see him get more of a chance in a setting where I could see what kind of brawler he was, but I see no real argument for HHH being better.

Just for the record here is a link to the match that is probably my favorite Lucha match of all time and possibly the best singles match I've ever seen, Gran Cochise v. Satanico http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hpHDi_A6CWk

I think all Lucha is easy to get and takes virtually no understanding of long term angles to enjoy. For years I THOUGHT the opposite which is why I ignored it. Oddly the reason for this was that I had gotten heavily into AJPW in the 90's as a result of the writing of jdw and a few others who were able to sketch out these huge narratives/back stories to all these great matches. The matches would have been great on their own, but when you read that stuff first it helped a lot. There was no similarly public person that I knew doing the same for Lucha so for years I convinced myself it would be impossible to figure shit out. The reality - for me at least - is that Lucha is the most accessible style in the World. Even the worst Lucha matches tend to have one or two spots or moments that I can enjoy. The best of them are tremendous. I have no clue what I can possibly contribute to this thread because to me as soon as I really gave Lucha a chance I loved it. I guess the matches where Villano III and Blue Panther dropped their masks would be good picks because it is easy to see the significance of the matches and they aren't filled with the the Lucha matwork that is oddly polarizing to some people. They are also great matches.

Nightmare Danny Davis I have not seen a ton of prime Danny Davis, but post-prime little engine that could Davis is a lot fun. My question is was Davis good at working little man's syndrome as a sort of ferocious battle against the World? If so I imagine he was better than HHH. Jeff Gaylord HHH isn't that bad. Billy Joe Travis Billy Joe Travis was a fucking awesome Southern heel. Possibly my favorite guy no one remembers. Total lunatic bump freak and theatrical son of a bitch. One of my favorite guys on the Texas Set and he barely appeared on it at all. Really makes me want to go back and watch his entire career which is the exact opposite of what happens when HHH shows up on my tv every week. Definitely Billy Joe. Ian Rotten Ian was easily better. I am not quite as high on Ian as some and he is a scummy piece of shit, but this is wrestling and he's up against HHH so really how much can you hold that against him? Awesome at tricked out mat work when given the chance, very good and intense brawler, a rare guy who could work staple "indy" style if he had to and delve into other shit just as easily without losing anything in translation. I even saw him have a surprisingly good match last year, despite his status as totally broken man dependent on Taco Bill pay check to pay off legal fees. Reggie B Fine Pimp me some Reggie B. Fine Miss Texas Actually this is not an unreasonable comparison, as both (allegedly?) attempted to fuck their way to the top of the wrestling business. Obviously on that metric HHH wins. As a worker? Well Miss Texas worked really stiff and gave off the vibe of a legit asskicker who could maul you. She is one of the few women I legitimately took seriously against men. I seem to remember her having a really great body slam, which is such an odd move to stand out which in a way makes it extra impressive. I would need to go back and watch some matches, but I certainly think she was more authentic than HHH in the ring.

I'm not the best person to start that thread. While I am a relatively new fan to Lucha (about 3 years or so of watching really heavily) and someone who came didn't watch it for years because I figured it would be hard to get into, I have found it remarkably easy to get into. Discussion of the great Lucha workers probably does deserve it's own thread though

Well at least you watched them. I thought Okada v. Naito was about as good as the third best Show v. Daniel Bryan match, which sounds like an insult but really isn't. I think most modern Japanese wrestling is garbage, so thinking it is probably a top twenty-five match at this point in the year is high praise from me. No clue how anyone could prefer it to that Santo/Villano tag especially, but I am consistently amazed by the opinions of others

Lucha deserves it's own thread if we are going to continue this discussion further, but there are a lot of no brainers, El Dandy was just the first that popped to mind. With Joshi I personally couldn't imagine leaving Aja, Chigusa, Jaguar and Hokuto off my ballot. I also really like Kudo and always have. I'm sure I'm forgetting a few others, though I doubt I'd have more than eight or nine TOPS. I'm still a novice to Lucha so it feels much fresher to me which makes a difference. Still I could see having twelve-fifteen luchadores on my ballot for sure, without even getting into guys who I suspect would have a strong case if I scratched the surface some

I think WWE main event wrestling has gotten a lot better since 98-00 to be honest, but it still relies on a lot of the same tricks.

There is nothing sexist about abhorring a style or promotion that has let you down multiple times. If that is the argument people are making against watching Joshi I get it. Another argument against it is that it feels tired and worn out to some of us who have been around forever. I feel the same way about Joshi as I feel about All Japan from the 90's - lots of great stuff (okay not THAT much great stuff) but if its been talked and watched to death and if I never saw it again I wouldn't care. Having said that I am obsessed with trying to get things right and for the purposes of a GOAT poll I think it would be ludicrous to split them. Do I think they might get screwed over in the final tally? Possibly and that sucks. But if the process was done right you could at least try and avoid that risk. I said this before but I worry FAR more about Lucha, which has tons of great stuff that people either don't watch or don't get or whatever. To me a guy like El Dandy is such a no brainer top hundred guy that I would have to look with some skepticism at a ballot that didn't include him - I would feel the same way about a ballot that didn't include Hokuto as well to keep this topical

We're comparing the other guys to a guy who's best argument is "he had several good WWE style main events."

It's arguable, but I would lean toward yes. WWE undercard style tends to have a lot of guys that are trying hard and work well (or at least has the last few years). But they don't get the benefit of props, booking, pagaentry, et. Yes I realize it takes the right guy to maximize those things, but there have been a lot of guys that have been plugged into the main event World in the last few years and had good matches. Many of those same guys seem badly exposed in tv matches.

I'm not sure I believe that. I used to. But I think WWE main event style is FAR easier to have good matches in than any other main event style. I am more impressed by a guy who can work ten good tv matches, with ten different guys, none of them getting more than ten minutes than I am by a guy that goes 1/4 or even 2/4 in terms of delivering quality, lengthy, "big show" matches.

It was only the first true MOTY if you pretend Lucha doesn't exist